Thoughts on "early" drink dates?

[We_ArE_VeNOM]

I’m going on a little tangent here, but one of the biggest pieces of evidence that internet dating advice is often passed down by people who are not actively dating and/or are not using critical thinking is the obsession with, “Meet me on [day I have no idea if she’s free] at [X time I have no idea if she’s free].”

The original purpose of that approach was for situations where you already had plans and were simply going down a list of prospects on your phone to see who wanted to join you. If one woman said no, you moved on to the next. If someone said yes, great. If nobody could make it, you were still going anyway. It was never intended to be some magical technique for securing a date with a specific woman.

I agree. There is a place for this^.

But the way I originally read it, it sounded like OP randomly asked her out on a date with a specific day/time in mind; without knowing if she'd be available...and when he found out she wasn't available and wasn't going to change her pre-planned activities for him..sounded like he was thinking about charging her to the game.

He provided more context though, and I understand now.

If your goal is actually to meet a particular woman, then ignoring the fact that she has her own schedule is just dumb. I also think about all the old-school field reports where guys got lucky pulling that off, then acted like it was a universal method. They expected every man to be able to “lock in” a specific woman for a specific day and time, without even knowing her schedule, and then treated it like a reliable strategy instead of a situational outcome without context.

Yeah, you have to respect other people's plans.

That's why I never randomly call people; I text first...to see if you are available, and THEN I call.

People could be at work, sleep, or just plan don't feel like talking..and I don't like infringing upon anyone.

That's just me .

 

[Velasco]

She's a little older, has her own place, makes her own money, and unfortunately lost both her parents in her mid-20s, so she's quite independent. She's been in a few relationships but also in a few situationships, mostly with younger guys.

ah the ole “i’m not that type of girl anymore” classic lol. “higher value” lol

 

[Sega Genesis]

From what she's described, she doesn't like dating because she gets "burnt out", meaning that she doesn't enjoy taking the time and effort to get to know somebody new, only to not click and end up playing games or ghosting or whatever.

I just re-read your post and confused by this^^.

May I ask what she's doing on a dating app since she doesn't like dating nor enjoys taking the time and effort to get to know someone?
Did you ask?

Did I miss something in there?

And then her 'no kissing on first date' rule.
I dunno it's a weird one.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

If the woman wants to fvck you she will do it at 12pm, 5pm, 8pm or midnight, it doesn't really matter

 

[BPH]

I just re-read your post and confused by this^^.

May I ask what she's doing on a dating app since she doesn't like dating nor enjoys taking the time and effort to get to know someone?
Did you ask?

Did I miss something in there?

And then her 'no kissing on first date' rule.
I dunno it's a weird one.

Not all of this is verbatim, but my interpretation is that she doesn't enjoy swiping on a bunch of ugly guys on the apps, only to go on dates that lead nowhere, or involve the guy playing games or something.

She finds it exhausting.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Good luck OP. I personally have never gone on a date that "went well" that didn't result in at least a kiss. It's a little telling she was too burned out to meet up with you the 3 times you matched prior. With the distance involved, I'd do a little more screening/gaming over text.

Personally, I'd both ask her if she's a good kisser (a rhetorical question, but needed in this case imo). You can screen her out if she gives a halting response, and hopefully get her warmed up a little bit, since it sounds like she could use it. As you know, don't get too carried away if the convo happens to start turning hot with this chick. Stop at the subject of foot massages and leave her wanting more.

Consistency is good, but with a mid-30's woman who's burned out and an hour away, she might get off put by the distance even if you're the one driving. It still sounds like she's still burned out if she can't even kiss a dude who's a proven seducer, in the top tier of looks, and gives her the warm and fuzzy feels on the date,

If she doesn't allow herself to get emotionally invested (through physicality) by the 2nd date, this doesn't look good imo. I'd gather a little more intel. You gotta be willing to put yourself in a vulnerable position in dating. Even if the girl is Sydney Sweeney, she's still a bad prospect if she isn't willing to be at least somewhat vulnerable..

 

[BeExcellent]

Well. Some people, including (Egads!) women, are actually introverts. How do you identify an introvert? Socializing, crowds, having to be at a party or in a social setting are mentally draining and exhausting to an introvert. This chick sounds introverted.

My husband is an introvert. OP didn't get to meet him the night he met my friends because shortly after we arrived (but before OP arrived), my husband decided he just wasn't in the mood to be out doing social stuff, so he caught an Uber home. I think he was much more interested in some video gaming tournament than making small talk with people that night, so he left. I understand this about him & that was just fine.

I'm an extroverted introvert myself. I'm fine socializing with people I know well for a while but I'm not a fan really of crowds, big parties, and so forth. Even with people I know well, I often get exhausted by being "on" in a social setting. I prefer alone time, time with my husband, and 1:1 time with friends & family. I find it restorative. Even being on stage at a gig beats socializing. I have something specific to do, am focused, and small talk is limited to the built in time constraints of being on break (although it is cool, and the audience wants to feel seen & interacted with....) but the stage is its own little island where you are performing but you are a bit removed from the crowd.

So this gal OP met may genuinely find it a chore the whole dating platform/social media thing tiresome but still want to meet someone without expending the necessary time in real face to face environments.

My cousin (a fun nerdy PhD in statistics) met her husband this way (dating app). She was too busy to go be social out and about as a stats professor, and she greatly disliked the bar/singles scene. He was similarly inclined. They met on the app, liked each other, met & hit it off. They are really cute together & really happy. So don't assume everyone ticks the same way gentlemen......

 

[Bingo-Player]

Tbh 10pm for a first date is ridiculous

I'm assuming its an APP date too which makes it even more ludicrous ,

Most people have busy lives and early starts who wants to be meeting some random off an APP at 10pm on a week night

it just sounds like unemployed fantasy scheduling from you hoping you can get away with buying 2 drinks and get her back for easy secks

Its like a plan from an American pie script

Jesus come on man you're not 15

 

[BPH]

Tbh 10pm for a first date is ridiculous

I'm assuming its an APP date too which makes it even more ludicrous ,

Most people have busy lives and early starts who wants to be meeting some random off an APP at 10pm on a week night

it just sounds like unemployed fantasy scheduling from you hoping you can get away with buying 2 drinks and get her back for easy secks

Its like a plan from an American pie script

Jesus come on man you're not 15

1. It's a Saturday, not a weeknight.

2. If you've read my reports, you'd see that 10PM for a drink date on a weekend is never an issue, aside from this example here. I don't know why you always chime in just to hate...

EDIT: I specified in the second sentence that the date was "tonight", and posted on a Saturday. Which leads me to believe you can't even be bothered to read the post before leaving your 2 cents...

 

[Rainman4707]

I'm gonna tag @Glassguy in this because I know he has a very similar MO.

I've got a date tonight with a girl who seems pretty interested...BUT...when I suggested we grab drinks at 10PM, she told me she's usually in bed by that time, and asked if we could do something earlier, like 8PM. She says she would like to be on her way home by 10PM because she wants to wake up for yoga in the morning.

Now I'm debating whether to bother going, and here's why...

To me, this communicates she has a set cutoff for how late the night could go, which tells me that even if we hit it off, it's probably not going to escalate very far. In my mind, if she wanted to, she would - as in she would be willing to stay out later and make an exception to her usual schedule, to see how well the night could go.

If I flipped the scenario and let's say my dream girl asked me out, but I had some sort of obligation, I would move my schedule around to accommodate it more easily, or make an exception to something that I do regularly, where I could just go at another time. Case in point, I wanted to visit my brother in New York on Friday, so I skipped my cardio at the gym to avoid the traffic, and I will be doing it today instead.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I don't really want to waste my night on somebody who's telling me how it's going to end when I could instead just go out somewhere and see if I like anybody.

8pm isnt early, its late.

 

[The Duke]

I think a lot of rigid female behavior comes from previous decisions gone bad. Why do women have silly rules about what they don't do on first dates? Because they put themselves in a precarious position on a previous date and they did more than they felt they should have. All it took was the right time, and the right guy that knew how to push the social interaction in the right direction. Most women are like silly puddy and very willing to be flexible once the connection is made.

You also have to understand that people who have a lot going on in life have structure,rules, and full schedules. It's why they are successful. They honor their committments so they can fit it all in. They don't have the luxury of moving stuff around or sleeping away the next day because they stayed out too late drinking the night before. @BPH your life is pretty care free. You have few commitments, not much on your plate, little pressure. You need to take that into consideration, its probably you that should be the more flexible one.

I would have moved the date to 8 and went with it. I've never met a woman that if she was having a nice time with you that wouldn't have forgotten all about her morning yoga. Or magically just remembered she could go to the 11am session instead of the 8am session. And even if she did then you have time to go out and pick up other girls.

I promise you that girls see you as a little bit of a risk/manwh0re. As a result some put conditions up to help protect themselves and feel better about themselves, even if its only mental gymnastics. To help lower their guards and make life easier for you, go along with it. We all know that women say all sorts of things that mean nothing.

Let me share one of my stories with a girl that put constraints on our date...we met up for a first date on a Sunday evening at 7 for some light food/drinks. After 2hrs, she told me she needed to get home because she had to work Monday morning. I just ignored it and told her I really wanted to check out this cool speakeasy bar that was in an alley down the street. She agreed to just one drink! lol. That turned into a few more drinks. By then she is all over me. She then says "well, I guess I'm not going in to work tomorrow" and asks if we could stop by her office and pick up some documents. I agree, we end up having sex on the conference room table overlooking the lights of the city. After that I took her to a nice hotel and got a room 30 floors up and banged her up against the glass until almost 5am. It was one of the greatest nights ever.

 

[The Duke]

This girl is treating this like a business agreement rather than a romantic relationship, Honey, if you don’t kiss on 1st date, then who are you out with, your brother?

If a new guy came in here with the same situation as the OP, with a woman saying ‘I don’t kiss on 1st date‘, he would get DESTROYED by Sosuave. ”You don’t know how to attract women”. “You shouldnt have agreed to her leaving at 10 pm.” “You dont understand women”. “She was not attracted”. “You have to workout more”. “You have to touch her more”. “You have to be more sexual”. “It was a messy date” “You need help with women”

Now, because it’s the OP, the advice is “women have schedules” “take it slow’ “shes a good catch”. “enjoy yourself”

The type of advice given on Sosuave on how to attract women is not consistent, It depends on who is asking the question.

An experienced man knows women say all sorts of schitt they don't mean. Stop taking them so serious. If she is into you, she will break every rule in the book once you make a connection.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

and asked if we could do something earlier, like 8PM.

Go big or go home, bro.

Tell her you're a day drinker.

Meet her for breakfast shots at 7 AM.

"Ideally I'm hammered before sunrise..."

 

[Sega Genesis]

@BPH Is there an update? Have you been chatting and still on for Thursday?

P.S. I don't believe women will break all their rules or boundaries on a first date BUT kissing and extending the date when she's really into him?

I DO believe she wouid be flexible on that, I would. I think it's instinctive again when they're clicking and she's into him.

But I can be pretty compliant when I really like a guy assuming what he's wanting isn't too outrageous (to me). I don't think kissing is.

I typically prefer to play it out organically and see where it takes me/takes us.

Other women may be more firm and unbending and they have their reasons I suppose. Not for me to judge that.

 

[BadBoy89]

An experienced man knows women say all sorts of schitt they don't mean. Stop taking them so serious.

If a man doesn't take a woman seriously he could get in massive hot water, experienced or not.

Imagine a woman saying "we are not having sex tonight." and you end up having sex. She recorded you on her phone the whole time. Ah, she just has proof you raped her.

Perhaps a whole new thread needs to be made about this.

If she is into you, she will break every rule in the book once you make a connection.

I guess so.

 

[BPH]

Alright, this sh** happened almost a full week ago and 90% of the advice came after the date, so let's put a ribbon on this thing and be done...

First of all, I was right.

@Sega Genesis I texted her yesterday to see if she would still be free tonight, and also texted her today. No response to either of those. I assume I'm simply being ghosted, which is ironic, considering this woman complained about being ghosted by dates she thought went well, and said that she prefers open communication and honesty.

@Velasco @BeExcellent and @Glassguy made good points about being less rigid and more flexible. I also agree with @The Duke that if she's having a good enough time, she'll make adjustments to her plans. Essentially, it's all about whether her interest is high enough.

If she were interested enough, she wouldn't have told me about this deadline, would've been agreeable to the time, and would've only brought up that cutoff time if she weren't having a good time. And that's before we even deal with the "I don't kiss on a first date" rule. To those who say my timing is too late, I've done this many, many, many times successfully. The lawyer girl back in May shared an apartment with her ex, and even though he would only be out until 3AM or so, she was agreeable to meeting up at 10:30PM the night after I met her. Or the girl from Hinge last month who ended up getting sick in the bed - that date was at 9:30PM.

It's not about the time. It is me screening for whether she's interested enough to be agreeable and open to the possibility of ending up together if the date goes well, which this girl was not. I should've trusted my instinct and made other plans.

The date itself went as well as it could've gone. She was on-time, I picked a good spot, I treated her to drinks and some nachos, got to know her, she got to know me, plenty of laughing and having a good time. Touching wasn't awkward; she stayed the entire duration until her parking meter was about to expire. I walked her to the car, hugged her goodbye, wasn't pushy about the no-kiss rule, and texted her later to make sure she made it home safely. There's not much room for improvement when being physical is completely off the table.

Since then, I went on a date with a girl Monday night at 11PM, which went very well. She has a "no sex on the first date" rule, but definitely not a "no kissing" rule. She was initially going to reschedule for next week because she's very busy and was feeling tired, but after texting back-and-forth with a few audio messages, she was much more tempted to meet me and changed her mind. We have plans for next Monday, and she even wants to see me Saturday now too.

Notice the difference in interest level? Whatever reasons that first girl has for the way she thinks about me, or is choosing to behave, I can't control. Perhaps that's why she's been on the dating apps for so long and is still single.

There was another girl who invited me up to Philly last night, but this time I DID trust my instincts, and felt the interest wasn't there, and decided to stay in and not waste my time.

So TL;DR I was right; many of you made good points, but at the end of the day, my intuition was correct, so the next time I have doubts, I'll just trust my gut.

EDIT: Also want to mention @BillyPilgrim because I'm used to you providing mostly sarcastic advice, but the reply you left on this page was actually pretty golden, and I'm surprised more people don't appreciate how spot-on that is.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Alright, this sh** happened almost a full week ago and 90% of the advice came after the date, so let's put a ribbon on this thing and be done...

First of all, I was right.

@Sega Genesis I texted her yesterday to see if she would still be free tonight, and also texted her today. No response to either of those. I assume I'm simply being ghosted, which is ironic, considering this woman complained about being ghosted by dates she thought went well, and said that she prefers open communication and honesty.

@Velasco @BeExcellent and @Glassguy made good points about being less rigid and more flexible. I also agree with @The Duke that if she's having a good enough time, she'll make adjustments to her plans. Essentially, it's all about whether her interest is high enough.

If she were interested enough, she wouldn't have told me about this deadline, would've been agreeable to the time, and would've only brought up that cutoff time if she weren't having a good time. And that's before we even deal with the "I don't kiss on a first date" rule. To those who say my timing is too late, I've done this many, many, many times successfully. The lawyer girl back in May shared an apartment with her ex, and even though he would only be out until 3AM or so, she was agreeable to meeting up at 10:30PM the night after I met her. Or the girl from Hinge last month who ended up getting sick in the bed - that date was at 9:30PM.

It's not about the time. It is me screening for whether she's interested enough to be agreeable and open to the possibility of ending up together if the date goes well, which this girl was not. I should've trusted my instinct and made other plans.

The date itself went as well as it could've gone. She was on-time, I picked a good spot, I treated her to drinks and some nachos, got to know her, she got to know me, plenty of laughing and having a good time. Touching wasn't awkward; she stayed the entire duration until her parking meter was about to expire. I walked her to the car, hugged her goodbye, wasn't pushy about the no-kiss rule, and texted her later to make sure she made it home safely. There's not much room for improvement when being physical is completely off the table.

Since then, I went on a date with a girl Monday night at 11PM, which went very well. She has a "no sex on the first date" rule, but definitely not a "no kissing" rule. She was initially going to reschedule for next week because she's very busy and was feeling tired, but after texting back-and-forth with a few audio messages, she was much more tempted to meet me and changed her mind. We have plans for next Monday, and she even wants to see me Saturday now too.

Notice the difference in interest level? Whatever reasons that first girl has for the way she thinks about me, or is choosing to behave, I can't control. Perhaps that's why she's been on the dating apps for so long and is still single.

There was another girl who invited me up to Philly last night, but this time I DID trust my instincts, and felt the interest wasn't there, and decided to stay in and not waste my time.

So TL;DR I was right; many of you made good points, but at the end of the day, my intuition was correct, so the next time I have doubts, I'll just trust my gut.

EDIT: Also want to mention @BillyPilgrim because I'm used to you providing mostly sarcastic advice, but the reply you left on this page was actually pretty golden, and I'm surprised more people don't appreciate how spot-on that is.

This is where I am going to have to say you need to back up a bit.

You claim it's "on her" and maybe "that's why she is still single".

But you also need to understand that a good subset of women are not going to take a man your age that still lives with his parents seriously, as a man. Some will fvck you still, but others will not.

Is it not fair for her to say "I don't want a grown man that lives with his parents?" Or is she not allowed to think that?

Now is it because of that she bounced? Can't know, but regardless, this is causing issues that no amount of looks, game or skill will be able to overcome with some women and worse, there is no real way to know because most won't tell you.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Essentially, it's all about whether her interest is high enough.

If she were interested enough, she wouldn't have told me about this deadline, would've been agreeable to the time, and would've only brought up that cutoff time if she weren't having a good time.

Appreciate the update @BPH ^^^ And I DO understand your mindset now and agree with you. Here's why.

Remember after it was mentioned how you didn't want to waste time and you were screening to determine if she (or any woman) would be open to ending the night with you (hooking up) assuming all went well and there was mutual attraction.... and I bought up Mode One?

Well that's what Mode One is too as far as I know, it's just much more direct.

Your way of asking for 10:00 pm date is also letting her know you're wanting to hook up assuming again there is a mutual attraction.

It's just less direct than Mode One but serves the same purpose.. you want or are hoping to hook up! And screening to determine if SHE is open to that too. I get this now.

You're right. If this chick were at least open to what you were wanting, she would have agreed to 10:00 pm. Other women have and you did end up hooking up!

It's a milder version of Mode One essentially.

A gf of mine is very active on the apps. She is beautiful and successful and has high standards but also very open to hooking up (same night) if the chemistry is there with the right guy. I've talked about her before here.... I believe in response to @We_ArE_VeNOM

Anyway to me this doesn't mean she has lower standards, it simply means her standards are different from a woman who isn't into casual hookups. No wrong or right about it. Just different.

She has also stated that after viewing a man's pics and profile and a few message exchanges she knows before meeting him if she wants to hook up. There is no need for any seduction tactics on his part, she either wants to hook up or at the very least open to it before meeting him.

I happen to believe many women on the apps or certain apps feel the same way. You know it too as hell you're up to 106 lay reports many from the apps!

So yeah just continue doing what has worked for YOU. Maintain your frame as you guys call it. 10:00 pm, she knows what's up and will either agree or not.

If not you just saved yourself time, effort and money. Her as well!

Good luck with your other options!

 

[BPH]

This is where I am going to have to say you need to back up a bit.

You claim it's "on her" and maybe "that's why she is still single".

But you also need to understand that a good subset of women are not going to take a man your age that still lives with his parents seriously, as a man. Some will fvck you still, but others will not.

Is it not fair for her to say "I don't want a grown man that lives with his parents?" Or is she not allowed to think that?

Now is it because of that she bounced? Can't know, but regardless, this is causing issues that no amount of looks, game or skill will be able to overcome with some women and worse, there is no real way to know because most won't tell you.

I'm not saying the blame is on her for ghosting me. I'm saying that part in particular is ironic, because she was complaining to me about guys having ghosted her after what she thought was a good date, and said she prefers open and honest communication, and will tell someone if she doesn't think there's a connection.

The fact that she isn't capable of doing the very thing she claims to dislike about others probably plays a role in why she's still single. If she doesn't like me, she could've told me, and I'd make other plans, simple as that.

Appreciate the update @BPH ^^^ And I DO understand your mindset now and agree with you. Here's why.

Remember after it was mentioned how you didn't want to waste time and you were screening to determine if she (or any woman) would be open to ending the night with you (hooking up) assuming all went well and there was mutual attraction.... and I bought up Mode One?

Well that's what Mode One is too as far as I know, it's just much more direct.

Your way of asking for 10:00 pm date is also letting her know you're wanting to hook up assuming again there is a mutual attraction.

It'a just less direct than Mode One but serves the same purpose.. you want or are hoping to hook up! And screening to determine if SHE is open to that too. I get this now.

You're right. If this chick were at least open to what you were wanting, she would have agreed to 10:00 pm. Other women have and you did end up hooking up!

It's a milder version of Mode One essentially.

A gf of mine is very active on the apps. She is beautiful and successful and has high standards but also very open to hooking up if the chemistry is there with the right guy.

To me this doesn't mean she has lower standards, it simply means her standards are different from a woman who isn't into casual hookups. No wrong or right about it. Just different.

She has also stated that after viewing a man's pics and profile and a few message exchanges she knows before meeting him if she wants to hook up. There is no need for any seduction tactics on his part, she either wants to hook up or at the very least open to it before meeting him.

I happen to believe many women on the apps or certain apps feel the same way. You know it too as hell you're up to 106 lay reports many from the apps!

So yeah just continue doing what has worked for YOU. Maintain your frame as you guys call it. 10:00 pm, she knows what's up and will either agree or not.

If not you just saved yourself time, effort and money. Her as well!

Good luck with your other options!

Exactly, imagine it like Deal or No Deal...the top prize is $1,000,000. It is POSSIBLE to win that if you play well enough with a little bit of luck.

However, the typical median contestant only wins around $40,000.

If you were told, up front, that you couldn't win the top prize, and you'd only win up to that $40,000 instead, you'd still get people willing to play, but it would definitely be less than if that outcome were on the table.

 

[Velasco]

. Essentially, it's all about whether her interest is high enough.

it’s not. I told you

they’re quite stubborn about shi like that. even if they’re really really really attracted to you

believe me i’ve been there. it’s frustrating as fvck. but it don’t go to do with interest.

Or the girl from Hinge last month who ended up getting sick in the bed - that date was at 9:30PM

that don’t got nothing to do with this girl. i mentioned in my response to solomon that i have chicks that won’t show up to my place until 2am. that don’t mean these girls are more high interest than a girl who thinks past 10pm is late. now AFTER you’ve fvcked them (especially a couple times) is when you’ll see more flexibility and will be able to get them out at times you weren’t beforehand. got to get that first one in tho.