Thoughts on "early" drink dates?

[BPH]

Most of you replied to this while I was actually on the date, so I didn't see most of this until now, but I do want to point out that I appreciated your input @Velasco .

I spoke to @BeExcellent and she suggested I be less rigid with the timing, since if the date goes really well, adjustments can be made.

^^This is fair. So why not cut to the chase and ask if she wants to hook up? Versus this ambiguous "let's meet at 10:00" and expect her to figure out your agenda is to get laid?

Because I am screening.

If you look at my recent lay reports, aside from the ones that happened the same night, they usually happen over a late-night drink date on a weekend. I think the earliest one I went on was at 9:30 PM.

Why do I do it this way? Because it's on a weekend where work the next morning isn't a concern, it's later at night in a more intimate setting with lower pressure, and it's at the end of the day when there's nothing that needs to be done after (because everything important would've been done beforehand).

I don't expect a woman to flat-out tell me whether she wants to hook up before even meeting for our date. That's a Mode One strategy, and I don't like Mode One because I don't think it works on attractive women with options. I understand that most women still want to be courted and seduced. The reason for my concern here is that she's essentially telling me how the night is going to end. I like later dates because there is the POSSIBILITY of them going further when the woman isn't concerned about a deadline, the way this one was about her yoga in the morning.

Anyway, I took @Velasco and @BeExcellent 's input and went on the date, and I was proven right.

It went very well, but only so well. She has a rule, apparently, where she doesn't kiss on the first date, so there was no room to physically escalate beyond just breaking the touch barrier. So I didn't really have any "weapons" at my disposal to convince her to reconsider her early curfew.

She wants to see me again and is available Thursday night. She texted me when she got home that she had a great time and that she was going to bed, and that was it.

I was going to go back out in Philly, but my car's check engine light came on when I got close to home, so I decided to just call it a night.

 

[plumber]

I would agree with this. Why try to plot and scheme when you know you’re an attractive guy and you could just invite her over or be upfront with being “casual.” Why do guys insist on playing a “game” and using “techniques” when people are having sex every 6 seconds?

This looks like a negotiation now where one is trying to get over on the other one.

You see her as short term and she might see you as long terms, hence the negotiations.

I just cut straight to the chase and offer a casual encounter. It’s literally impossible for me to constantly get rejected. I play it like a numbers game and the end result is we both wanted to fvck each other.

And if you’re a physically attractive guy and constantly finding yourself in negotiation battles, that’s a sign of another problem. Perhaps you’re too entrenched in seeking to external validation.

A good looking guy who is internally validated gets hit on by hot women EFFORTLESSLY.

He doesn’t need to go on a dating advice site bickering about 8 pm vs 10 pm. He’s too busy getting laid.

most men do not understand what internally validated means. they take it as a matter of pride attack... its something different.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Anyway, I took @Velasco and @BeExcellent 's input and went on the date, and I was proven right.

Perhaps you missed but this^^ was actually my advice as well in my first post. Less rigid with the timing and see how it plays out, you can always extend it.

I modified after the point was made your goal was simply getting laid and you didn't want to "waste time" (your words) with an earlier date if it appeared getting laid wasn't going to happen.

But you've since lightened up and went and now have something potentially set for Thursday.

I hope it works out for ya.

 

[BeExcellent]

Most of you replied to this while I was actually on the date, so I didn't see most of this until now, but I do want to point out that I appreciated your input @Velasco .

I spoke to @BeExcellent and she suggested I be less rigid with the timing, since if the date goes really well, adjustments can be made.



Because I am screening.

If you look at my recent lay reports, aside from the ones that happened the same night, they usually happen over a late-night drink date on a weekend. I think the earliest one I went on was at 9:30 PM.

Why do I do it this way? Because it's on a weekend where work the next morning isn't a concern, it's later at night in a more intimate setting with lower pressure, and it's at the end of the day when there's nothing that needs to be done after (because everything important would've been done beforehand).

I don't expect a woman to flat-out tell me whether she wants to hook up before even meeting for our date. That's a Mode One strategy, and I don't like Mode One because I don't think it works on attractive women with options. I understand that most women still want to be courted and seduced. The reason for my concern here is that she's essentially telling me how the night is going to end. I like later dates because there is the POSSIBILITY of them going further when the woman isn't concerned about a deadline, the way this one was about her yoga in the morning.

Anyway, I took @Velasco and @BeExcellent 's input and went on the date, and I was proven right.

It went very well, but only so well. She has a rule, apparently, where she doesn't kiss on the first date, so there was no room to physically escalate beyond just breaking the touch barrier. So I didn't really have any "weapons" at my disposal to convince her to reconsider her early curfew.

She wants to see me again and is available Thursday night. She texted me when she got home that she had a great time and that she was going to bed, and that was it.

I was going to go back out in Philly, but my car's check engine light came on when I got close to home, so I decided to just call it a night.

Ok. She met you, enjoyed the date, texted you when she got home, and indicated interest in seeing you again this coming week. That is a self respecting woman with fairly high interest in you.

Had you insisted on a later start, the liklihood is that she would have flaked. Some women are a slower play than others. I don't see how this is a negative outcome. Just see her again if you enjoyed her company/found her attractive & exercise some patience. Not every girl is going to fall into bed with you the first night.

Not sure why you sound disappointed except that she didn't break her first date rule for you. In the long run that's positive because she is not "easy". Of course, if you screen for floozies who are easy, you'll get floozies who are easy. But those girls have their own liabilities that can become deal breakers in time.

All in all an evening many guys around here would appreciate having.....

 

[BPH]

I would agree with this. Why try to plot and scheme when you know you’re an attractive guy and you could just invite her over or be upfront with being “casual.” Why do guys insist on playing a “game” and using “techniques” when people are having sex every 6 seconds?

This looks like a negotiation now where one is trying to get over on the other one.

You see her as short term and she might see you as long terms, hence the negotiations.

I just cut straight to the chase and offer a casual encounter. It’s literally impossible for me to constantly get rejected. I play it like a numbers game and the end result is we both wanted to fvck each other.

And if you’re a physically attractive guy and constantly finding yourself in negotiation battles, that’s a sign of another problem. Perhaps you’re too entrenched in seeking to external validation.

A good looking guy who is internally validated gets hit on by hot women EFFORTLESSLY.

He doesn’t need to go on a dating advice site bickering about 8 pm vs 10 pm. He’s too busy getting laid.

There's a LOT I disagree with here, and I think you're making a lot of assumptions about a pretty simple question.

It was just a matter of opportunity cost with what else I could've been doing with my night, since this woman is telling me that she has an early cutoff, and I can assume how the date would (and did) end.

Is it NOT about 8PM vs 10PM.

It IS about having to leave at 10PM.

I also don't appreciate the implication in your other post about being able to tell "real vs fake DJs", but that's not the topic here.

Again, it is not about SPECIFICALLY hooking up on the first date. It is about the POSSIBILITY of it going there. That possibility is much lower in a world where she has only 2 hours because she wants to be up early the next morning, compared to a woman who would agree to a later time because she doesn't have a time constraint in the back of her mind.

Not sure why you sound disappointed except that she didn't break her first date rule for you. In the long run that's positive because she is not "easy". Of course, if you screen for floozies who are easy, you'll get floozies who are easy. But those girls have their own liabilities that can become deal breakers in time.

All in all an evening many guys around here would appreciate having.....

I'm not that disappointed, outside of the fact that something as simple as kissing was off limits for the first date. I'd have to really think back as to whether I ever met a woman with that rule - and even then, whether they actually enforced it.

We got along well, and there's a positive outlook for the next date. I've just had a REALLY sh** weekend from Thursday night onward, so I was considering whether I wanted to do something where I knew the ending wasn't going to be quite what I wanted, vs doing something unknown where that COULD have been the ending.

 

[We_ArE_VeNOM]

.

Allow me school you, simp master.

I've got a date tonight with a girl who seems pretty interested...BUT...when I suggested we grab drinks at 10PM, she told me she's usually in bed by that time, and asked if we could do something earlier, like 8PM. She says she would like to be on her way home by 10PM because she wants to wake up for yoga in the morning.

First mistake^.

You shouldn't make any suggestion about times, until you find out whether she is free during that time, first.

Part of getting to know each other, is knowing each others schedules.

What if she works night shifts, 11pm-7am?

And you're trying to have drinks at 10pm?

First, ask her availability, "When are you usually free for drinks"?

She'll tell you...and you can work around that.

Now I'm debating whether to bother going, and here's why...

To me, this communicates she has a set cutoff for how late the night could go, which tells me that even if we hit it off, it's probably not going to escalate very far. In my mind, if she wanted to, she would - as in she would be willing to stay out later and make an exception to her usual schedule, to see how well the night could go.

There could be something to this^.

However, since she offered a contingency plan (8pm instead of 10pm), that is a positive sign.

She was still trying to make something happen..which means her head is still in the game.

If I flipped the scenario and let's say my dream girl asked me out, but I had some sort of obligation, I would move my schedule around to accommodate it more easily, or make an exception to something that I do regularly, where I could just go at another time. Case in point, I wanted to visit my brother in New York on Friday, so I skipped my cardio at the gym to avoid the traffic, and I will be doing it today instead.

But the difference is, those yoga classes are booked sessions, at specific times of the day/night...depending on how the sessions roll, at whatever gym/class she attends.

It's not the same as hopping on one of dozens of a available treadmills at any given time of the day.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I don't really want to waste my night on somebody who's telling me how it's going to end when I could instead just go out somewhere and see if I like anybody.

Overthinking.

I'm all about testing a woman's cooperation with my program, but this particularly case; the benefit of the doubt should be rendered.

 

[BPH]

.

Allow me school you, simp master.



First mistake^.

You shouldn't make any suggestion about times, until you find out whether she is free during that time, first.

Part of getting to know each other, is knowing each others schedules.

What if she works night shifts, 11pm-7am?

And you're trying to have drinks at 10pm?

First, ask her availability, "When are you usually free for drinks"?

She'll tell you...and you can work around that.



There could be something to this^.

However, since she offered a contingency plan (8pm instead of 10pm), that is a positive sign.

She was still trying to make something happen..which means her head is still in the game.



But the difference is, those yoga classes are booked sessions, at specific times of the day/night...depending on how the sessions roll, at whatever gym/class she attends.

It's not the same as hopping on one of dozens of a available treadmills at any given time of the day.



Overthinking.

I'm all about testing a woman's cooperation with my program, but this particularly case; the benefit of the doubt should be rendered.

For once, I actually agree with your take here.

Allow me school you, simp master.

Except for this part, obviously...

First, ask her availability, "When are you usually free for drinks"?

And this part.

I'll usually opt to be the one who picks the date and time, and let her tell me if it doesn't work for her, in which case she would ideally offer an alternative (which she did).

We picked this date because she works M-F and was seeing her sister Friday night, so I already knew her availability, I just didn't know she had something non-work related in the morning that she was trying to accommodate.

 

[We_ArE_VeNOM]

I'll usually opt to be the one who picks the date and time, and let her tell me if it doesn't work for her, in which case she would ideally offer an alternative (which she did).

But why pick the date and time without knowing if she will be available, first?

We picked this date because she works M-F and was seeing her sister Friday night, so I already knew her availability, I just didn't know she had something non-work related in the morning that she was trying to accommodate.

That's the point, you didn't know...that's why you should ask.

If you didn't know she had something non-work related in the morning to do, I guess you didn't know her availability as much as you thought you did...did you?

 

[BPH]

But why pick the date and time without knowing if she will be available, first?



That's the point, you didn't know...that's why you should ask.

If you didn't know she had something non-work related in the morning to do, I guess you didn't know her availability as much as you thought you did...did you?

I suggested Saturday when she told me she works M-F, which she agreed to for that reason. I didn't know she had yoga in the morning until I suggested the late time. I didn't suggest a time until today because there was another girl I was trying to see, and I didn't want to make plans until I was sure that girl was going to flake.

Otherwise, yes, I could've been more specific with the time and figured this out sooner, not that it would've really changed anything.

 

[viking22]

Suggesting drinks at 10pm on a weekend for a first date is a bit transparent and probably part of the reason she started talking about time constraints. If you want to do that going forward with other girls it is better to frame it as "I know a cool late night ****tail bar let's meet there at 10pm". Unless you are explicitly using it as a screen for girls just looking to hook up.

Starting earlier at say 8pm also has some tactical advantages as it means you can bounce to another venue so it feels like multiple dates and you can build enough comfort that after midnight she might make an exception even if hooking up isn't her primary goal.

Agree that you couldn't have done much more in this case. I wouldn't take it personallly that she didn't break her rules for you. They are designed to protect her and you are moving too fast for her so she is trying to slow your roll. She texted you after she got home and is already keen to go on another date so that is very positive and if you show a little patience you will probably bed her on the third date.

 

[We_ArE_VeNOM]

I suggested Saturday when she told me she works M-F, which she agreed to for that reason. I didn't know she had yoga in the morning until I suggested the late time. I didn't suggest a time until today because there was another girl I was trying to see, and I didn't want to make plans until I was sure that girl was going to flake.

Otherwise, yes, I could've been more specific with the time and figured this out sooner, not that it would've really changed anything.

Gotcha .

 

[Clockwerk50]

.

Allow me school you, simp master.



First mistake^.

You shouldn't make any suggestion about times, until you find out whether she is free during that time, first.

Part of getting to know each other, is knowing each others schedules.

What if she works night shifts, 11pm-7am?

And you're trying to have drinks at 10pm?

First, ask her availability, "When are you usually free for drinks"?

She'll tell you...and you can work around that.



There could be something to this^.

However, since she offered a contingency plan (8pm instead of 10pm), that is a positive sign.

She was still trying to make something happen..which means her head is still in the game.



But the difference is, those yoga classes are booked sessions, at specific times of the day/night...depending on how the sessions roll, at whatever gym/class she attends.

It's not the same as hopping on one of dozens of a available treadmills at any given time of the day.



Overthinking.

I'm all about testing a woman's cooperation with my program, but this particularly case; the benefit of the doubt should be rendered.

I’m going on a little tangent here, but one of the biggest pieces of evidence that internet dating advice is often passed down by people who are not actively dating and/or are not using critical thinking is the obsession with, “Meet me on [day I have no idea if she’s free] at [X time I have no idea if she’s free].”

The original purpose of that approach was for situations where you already had plans and were simply going down a list of prospects on your phone to see who wanted to join you. If one woman said no, you moved on to the next. If someone said yes, great. If nobody could make it, you were still going anyway. It was never intended to be some magical technique for securing a date with a specific woman.

If your goal is actually to meet a particular woman, then ignoring the fact that she has her own schedule is just dumb. I also think about all the old-school field reports where guys got lucky pulling that off, then acted like it was a universal method. They expected every man to be able to “lock in” a specific woman for a specific day and time, without even knowing her schedule, and then treated it like a reliable strategy instead of a situational outcome without context.

 

[Glassguy]

I'm gonna tag @Glassguy in this because I know he has a very similar MO.

I've got a date tonight with a girl who seems pretty interested...BUT...when I suggested we grab drinks at 10PM, she told me she's usually in bed by that time, and asked if we could do something earlier, like 8PM. She says she would like to be on her way home by 10PM because she wants to wake up for yoga in the morning.

Now I'm debating whether to bother going, and here's why...

To me, this communicates she has a set cutoff for how late the night could go, which tells me that even if we hit it off, it's probably not going to escalate very far. In my mind, if she wanted to, she would - as in she would be willing to stay out later and make an exception to her usual schedule, to see how well the night could go.

If I flipped the scenario and let's say my dream girl asked me out, but I had some sort of obligation, I would move my schedule around to accommodate it more easily, or make an exception to something that I do regularly, where I could just go at another time. Case in point, I wanted to visit my brother in New York on Friday, so I skipped my cardio at the gym to avoid the traffic, and I will be doing it today instead.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I don't really want to waste my night on somebody who's telling me how it's going to end when I could instead just go out somewhere and see if I like anybody.

I'm late to the party but it seems as though @BeExcellent gave you solid advice.
Some women have priorities and arent hoes. This seems like a higher value woman who has high standards for HERSELF. Nothing wrong with that.
Think of it this way: this was your first date. She has absolutely nothing invested and neither do you. She let you know up front that she had to be up early the next morning as she takes her fitness seriously. Not a bad thing at all.
What I have found is women who are higher value, have their own regimen they follow, are disciplined etc do have their own set of priorities. The longer you continue to see her, the more you'll become a priority in her schedule.
Its as simple as that. She can weed out any dude that juat wants to play around by sticking to her schedule. Nothing to lose on her part.
I also agree with @BeExcellent that if you would have insisted on 10pm, she would have straight up canceled or flaked. Again, she owes you nothing and vice versa.
When I met my fiance she had a super busy schedule. Within 2 months she was including me into her schedule on most facets. Things change as they start to become attached, begin to trust you and start seeing things going somewhere. You start becoming someone worth investing their time in.
As a guy who used to run a rotation and just run through women like water, I will say that its much better finding someone worth investing in compared to just moving on to the next one. First dates, dealing with this and that.....it gets exhausting no matter how many women you hook up with or how good you are in the dating game.
So it all depends on what you want.
It sounds like the date went well, she wants to see you again and the next date has been set. Just be you my man. Don't over pursue but keep in contact. Don't play games.
Have fun with it. Don't be afraid to take it slow. She will come around as she gets to know and trust you.
Shallow women and relationships are easy to find. Good women are hard to find.
I can get a good feel for a woman quickly. Does she seem like someone you want to get to know?
Also, many guys on here kinda look down on "relationships". Same dudes are on here crying about how they cant get dates, get flaked on, etc.
Ive never been worried to pursue things with a woman worth pursuing things with...although they arent out there hiding behind every tree.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I don't consider 8pm early. Most of my drink dates, even on weekends, usually fall between 7:30 and 8:30. If she's into you there's no need to do it later, by the time you are banging it'll probably be close to 11pm anyway.

If she makes it clear she has to be somewhere that night I wouldn't even bother going. Though I do remember one girl said her dog was throwing up and she might have to go early, but we ended up banging that night anyway.

 

[BadBoy89]

It went very well, but only so well. She has a rule, apparently, where she doesn't kiss on the first date, so there was no room to physically escalate beyond just breaking the touch barrier.

This girl is treating this like a business agreement rather than a romantic relationship, Honey, if you don’t kiss on 1st date, then who are you out with, your brother?

If a new guy came in here with the same situation as the OP, with a woman saying ‘I don’t kiss on 1st date‘, he would get DESTROYED by Sosuave. ”You don’t know how to attract women”. “You shouldnt have agreed to her leaving at 10 pm.” “You dont understand women”. “She was not attracted”. “You have to workout more”. “You have to touch her more”. “You have to be more sexual”. “It was a messy date” “You need help with women”

Now, because it’s the OP, the advice is “women have schedules” “take it slow’ “shes a good catch”. “enjoy yourself”

The type of advice given on Sosuave on how to attract women is not consistent, It depends on who is asking the question.

 

[BPH]

I don't consider 8pm early. Most of my drink dates, even on weekends, usually fall between 7:30 and 8:30. If she's into you there's no need to do it later, by the time you are banging it'll probably be close to 11pm anyway.

I think too many people are fixating on the 8PM vs 10PM thing rather than the WHY, which is because she has an early cutoff for the night, meaning the possibility of hooking up isn't really there. Regardless, it went well enough, all things considered.

The type of advice given on Sosuave on how to attract women is not consistent, It depends on who is asking the question.

Correct, because most forum members would assume I know better, and not dispense obvious advice, and rightly so.

I came here asking about whether I should bother with this date because it seemed like she was telling me how it was going to end - which was a correct assumption. If I had known she would ALSO not be comfortable kissing on a first date, I probably would not have gone. But I did NOT know that, so I made the best of the situation I was in. She had a good time and wants to see me again, so there's not much more I could've done there.

On the flip side of your comment, because it's me asking, threads where I have a question often devolve into a hindsight analysis of what I should've done differently, or that I should've known better, long after the answers would've made a difference.

 

[Sega Genesis]

After reading @Glassguy post in which he makes some great points, the question for you @BPH is... are you up to "courting" this woman? Taking things slow, taking her out on dates and possibly waiting a bit to have sex?

I mean I think it's fairly obvious (at least to me) this girl is in "dating/relationship mode" while you are currently in "hookup/possible FWB mode."

Nothing wrong with either obviously. The issue is you're on different wavelengths, you have different wants and expectations. I happen to believe it's important going in to be on the same page regarding what you both want and expect. JMO.

Or perhaps it's too soon to know? Take her out a few more times, have some dates including activity dates and get to know her? See how you feel then?

Then again if it's as you said and your goal is simply getting laid and you don't want to "waste time" (courting her on dates which you have mentioned previously re other women), perhaps it's best you let this one go?

100% your call.

 

[BPH]

Nothing wrong with either obviously. The issue is you're on different wavelengths, you have different wants and expectations. I happen to believe it's important going in to be on the same page regarding what you both want. JMO.

From what she's described, she doesn't like dating because she gets "burnt out", meaning that she doesn't enjoy taking the time and effort to get to know somebody new, only to not click and end up playing games or ghosting or whatever. We'd actually matched like 3 or 4 times on the dating apps, and this was the first time we actually met because she would go through those "burnt out" phases, but was still interested in me, which is why she constantly "liked" me on those apps.

She's a little older, has her own place, makes her own money, and unfortunately lost both her parents in her mid-20s, so she's quite independent. She's been in a few relationships but also in a few situationships, mostly with younger guys. She also mentions not wanting kids. All this to say, I'm not really sure what she's looking for, but I think it boils down more to consistency than seriousness.

Anyway, to answer your original question about whether I'm open to courting this woman vs prioritizing being physical sooner rather than later...I can do both. She's not the only woman I'm talking to.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Anyway, to answer your original question about whether I'm open to courting this woman vs prioritizing being physical sooner rather than later...I can do both. She's not the only woman I'm talking to.

^^I think it's great you're flexible about it. I mean ya never know, right?

Remain open to all possibilities and allow it to take you wherever it's meant to take you.

I truly believe that.

 

[Prepostereax]

Literally this:

I understand that most women still want to be courted and seduced.

Some women, especially those with high standards, have this "no escalating on the 1st date" rule ingrained.
It's a kind of sh!t-test and if you try to be "the exception to their rules", you fail (maybe they will ONS you but you'll just be a fkcboi to them)

Dont be angry at women for testing you, if they didnt do these tests, their body count would be astronomical

The way around this is to simply view these early dates as congruence tests of your own

Because I am screening.

Yeah, you got this.

An example, in courting my own wife we had several "coffee dates" which had zero chances of sex (unless she's the type who'd bang randos in the backseat of the car, which she's not).
But our first actual late night date ended up at my place, where I gave her a foot massage that somehow turned into an internal massage

So in my wife’s mind, she didn't put out until the 3rd "date"
But in my mind she was a 1st date lay