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Pan87

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As I stated earlier in this thread there is no need to deceive or lie. Be brutally forthright in how you operate. That gives you maximum power and leverage. If women stay under those circumstances (and for true “alphas” they WILL), then you have retained your integrity and you have carte blanche to do as you will in good conscience.

I know men who operate openly this way. About who they see and what they require (adventurous sex, threesomes, whatever)...

They also accept that the women are free to do as they like with others and they accept that people enjoy sex and do not expect to limit women while not limiting themselves...

But few men have the core strength to operate that way. That is the bigger issue.
What you're describing is just an "open relationship" - And sure, some women will go for that (but high quality women won't).

Pretending to be monogamous, and then cheating, getting caught and expecting your GF to be okay with that because you're a super-alpha Chad is just not how it works in the real world.

This idea that women share alphas and are happy living in harems is a total wank fantasy. A woman wants a guy who is attractive to other women, whom other women want to f*ck, but who is committed to her. That's the ultimate female mating strategy.

@cola is under the impression that women will stay with an Alpha who cheats. Short-term, Yes. Long-term, Unlikely, unless she's a low-quality, low-self esteem woman.
 

In2theGame

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A woman wants a guy who is attractive to other women, whom other women want to f*ck, but who is committed to her. That's the ultimate female mating strategy.
I think that's one of the biggest challenges for Women and also attractive Men in relationships/marriage. Yes, Women want that "Alpha" male who is attractive to other Women and has a sexy demeanor about him that Women find very attractive but then she runs into the issues of wanting him to be this 100% loyal Man only to her. Is it possible to have this handsome "prince charming" that only has eyes of lust for her? Yeah, it's possible but realistically somewhere down the line, he may d!ck down another Woman he finds attractive even if he wants to stay with his current Girlfriend/Wife.

I don't agree with the cheating part of all this because it's going to bring drama/stress and unnecessary situations. Also scrambling to make sure lies are stringing together and consistent = problematic. This is why some Women are fearful of even getting involved with very good looking Men because they know there is a chance another Woman much sexier than her may come along and tempt him for sex. They then settle for a less attractive Man and are "happy" he's loyal and devoted to her but long term... she's just not lustful for him. In some cases the "safe" unattractive Man will cheat anyway and shatter her idea if a "safe" guy.

I'm thinking Poly is going to be the future.
 

Pan87

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I think that's one of the biggest challenges for Women and also attractive Men in relationships/marriage. Yes, Women want that "Alpha" male who is attractive to other Women and has a sexy demeanor about him that Women find very attractive but then she runs into the issues of wanting him to be this 100% loyal Man only to her. Is it possible to have this handsome "prince charming" that only has eyes of lust for her? Yeah, it's possible but realistically somewhere down the line, he may d!ck down another Woman he finds attractive even if he wants to stay with his current Girlfriend/Wife.

I don't agree with the cheating part of all this because it's going to bring drama/stress and unnecessary situations. Also scrambling to make sure lies are stringing together and consistent = problematic. This is why some Women are fearful of even getting involved with very good looking Men because they know there is a chance another Woman much sexier than her may come along and tempt him for sex. They then settle for a less attractive Man and are "happy" he's loyal and devoted to her but long term... she's just not lustful for him. In some cases the "safe" unattractive Man will cheat anyway and shatter her idea if a "safe" guy.

I'm thinking Poly is going to be the future.
It's even worse than that - she wants a sexy Alpha who is 100% loyal to her, but when he becomes 100% loyal then there's inevitable softening and Oneitis from the Alpha and that turns her off.

You can't win with women. If you cheat on her as an Alpha then she will want to destroy you - Drama, resentment and then "hell hath no fury"-type stuff. If you commit to her as an Alpha then she will become unattracted eventually, unless you maintain rock solid boundaries and play lots of Dread Game (but this is extremely hard to do when you're giving all of your sexual attention to one woman - you will eventually get soft with her). Also, a woman's hindbrain will be telling her that if the Alpha has committed to her then she's the best option that he has, that is Beta in her subconscious mind. She starts getting turned off and she doesn't even know why.

My conclusion is that LTR's are just a bad idea in this current society. The risks outweigh the rewards.

If you want an LTR then you essentially have to ensure that you never fall in love with your woman as to avoid Oneitis, and you must constantly Game her. What's the point?
 

TheProspect

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My conclusion is that LTR's are just a bad idea in this current society. The risks outweigh the rewards.

If you want an LTR then you essentially have to ensure that you never fall in love with your woman as to avoid Oneitis, and you must constantly Game her. What's the point?
I'm reaching the same conclusion.

Some may argue against the need to game our LTR, but game, as I see it, is about establishing rapport and building/maintaining interest. If we can't maintain the interest and attraction that led to the LTR in the first place, the expiration date of it is sooner than later.

The point being that if game does not come easy to us, it's going to be a lot of deliberate effort put into one woman. In other words, we're naturally going to become invested to some degree and most men aren't mindful enough to know when they are starting to over-invest & emotionally compromise their game and also their ability to lead. Gradual over-investment happens as onenitus simultaneously creeps in. Frog in boiling water type of situation.

Falling in love (obsession) and developing onenitus blinds us, we subsequently lose both power and perspective. We almost need to be constantly detached, at least to the point where you can sustain a bird's eye view of the relationship indefinitely, in order to have that proper perspective to catch when the dynamic might be shifting in a undesirable way (assuming you want to stay in the LTR).

On the other hand, there's a different set of a problems that arise for us men who don't easily get attached, who can usually remain detached and less invested in the LTR than the girl at all times. One would think that a higher quality chick would eventually want her man to show that he is capable of displaying vulnerability, and to show through his actions more investment in her...to show that he's all in. If us men don't compromise to some degree at some point, this could negatively impact the relationship... But if we over-correct we run the risk of the problems already mentioned earlier...

Some form of a calibrated strategy is required to balance the apparent dichotomy, and thus, the constant need to game. And if the right game doesn't come naturally to us to some degree, we're operating at a disadvantage.

Most men seeking and entering LTRs are at that disadvantage.
 

samspade

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I'm reaching the same conclusion.

Some may argue against the need to game our LTR, but game, as I see it, is about establishing rapport and building/maintaining interest. If we can't maintain the interest and attraction that led to the LTR in the first place, the expiration date of it is sooner than later.

The point being that if game does not come easy to us, it's going to be a lot of deliberate effort put into one woman. In other words, we're naturally going to become invested to some degree and most men aren't mindful enough to know when they are starting to over-invest & emotionally compromise their game and also their ability to lead. Gradual over-investment happens as onenitus simultaneously creeps in. Frog in boiling water type of situation.

Falling in love (obsession) and developing onenitus blinds us, we subsequently lose both power and perspective. We almost need to be constantly detached, at least to the point where you can sustain a bird's eye view of the relationship indefinitely, in order to have that proper perspective to catch when the dynamic might be shifting in a undesirable way (assuming you want to stay in the LTR).

On the other hand, there's a different set of a problems that arise for us men who don't easily get attached, who can usually remain detached and less invested in the LTR than the girl at all times. One would think that a higher quality chick would eventually want her man to show that he is capable of displaying vulnerability, and to show through his actions more investment in her...to show that he's all in. If us men don't compromise to some degree at some point, this could negatively impact the relationship... But if we over-correct we run the risk of the problems already mentioned earlier...

Some form of a calibrated strategy is required to balance the apparent dichotomy, and thus, the constant need to game. And if the right game doesn't come naturally to us to some degree, we're operating at a disadvantage.

Most men seeking and entering LTRs are at that disadvantage.
I think this is the biggest learning gap in the manosphere and on Sosuave.

Over the years I've read a lot of posts from wise posters (and some dumb ones) saying that falling in love, developing crushes, feelings, and the like is the province of women, but not capital-M Men. Better to be detached for when the other shoe drops, or to keep her in "dread."

But those things (love, crushes) don't have to mean obsession. It's framed that way around here because for so many former chumps, that's what it once meant. I see so many guys on SS self-flagellating because they got a crush on some chick or developed feelings. When what they could really be doing is enjoying these things for what they are and welcoming the challenge they bring to the self - how to handle it without compromising your interests.

Strategies don't work, IMO. Once you start strategizing, your relationship (plate or LTR) becomes a project, and you start investing in non-investment.

The only thing that has worked for me is:

Find your mission and follow it.

I can't stress this enough. Ninety-nine percent of everything else falls into place. I'm not saying you shouldn't think before you act, or seek advice. I'm just saying that all of the boogeymen that haunt Sosuave can be neutralized if you

Find your mission and follow it.

AMOGs, Chads, Dual Mating Strategies, being "cucked," wondering "how to play this," wondering if you should next, wondering if you should call her out, should you be nicer, should you commit...none of this shyt matters when you

Find your mission and follow it.

Heck, you can even take on a side bytch and have it all blow up in your face, but you'll be fine. (Circling back to the thread topic...I almost forgot.)
 

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Lookatu

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As I stated earlier in this thread there is no need to deceive or lie. Be brutally forthright in how you operate. That gives you maximum power and leverage. If women stay under those circumstances (and for true “alphas” they WILL), then you have retained your integrity and you have carte blanche to do as you will in good conscience.

I know men who operate openly this way. About who they see and what they require (adventurous sex, threesomes, whatever)...

They also accept that the women are free to do as they like with others and they accept that people enjoy sex and do not expect to limit women while not limiting themselves...

But few men have the core strength to operate that way. That is the bigger issue.
Agree.
I know quite a few people in this type of scenario and I think it's the best way to operate if you wanna seek sex outside of the relationship. But I just wanna state for the guys that has never been in this scenario, it's not just something you can do with anyone or even a new girl that you just started seeing for a shortwhile. Also she can't be totally blue pill or it won't work.

This is more for those that have had established relationships or have built something with each other for her to see your full worth and value.

And if there are mistakes made on either side, it will end. Murphy's law will say if you stick with this type of arrangement long enough, mistakes will be made by someone and as @Barrister indicated, it won't be sustainable and have a finite shelf life.
 
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TheProspect

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I think this is the biggest learning gap in the manosphere and on Sosuave.

Over the years I've read a lot of posts from wise posters (and some dumb ones) saying that falling in love, developing crushes, feelings, and the like is the province of women, but not capital-M Men. Better to be detached for when the other shoe drops, or to keep her in "dread."

But those things (love, crushes) don't have to mean obsession. It's framed that way around here because for so many former chumps, that's what it once meant. I see so many guys on SS self-flagellating because they got a crush on some chick or developed feelings. When what they could really be doing is enjoying these things for what they are and welcoming the challenge they bring to the self - how to handle it without compromising your interests.

Strategies don't work, IMO. Once you start strategizing, your relationship (plate or LTR) becomes a project, and you start investing in non-investment.

The only thing that has worked for me is:

Find your mission and follow it.

I can't stress this enough. Ninety-nine percent of everything else falls into place. I'm not saying you shouldn't think before you act, or seek advice. I'm just saying that all of the boogeymen that haunt Sosuave can be neutralized if you

Find your mission and follow it.

AMOGs, Chads, Dual Mating Strategies, being "cucked," wondering "how to play this," wondering if you should next, wondering if you should call her out, should you be nicer, should you commit...none of this shyt matters when you

Find your mission and follow it.

Heck, you can even take on a side bytch and have it all blow up in your face, but you'll be fine. (Circling back to the thread topic...I almost forgot.)
I agree with your points. My post was from a risk-adverse "protect yourself" perspective, which at the extreme end would just be to not even attempt an LTR.

Personally speaking, I see myself entertaining a relationship again if the conditions are right. Although given my direction in life at the moment, it wouldn't be for a couple years at least. But any relationship I do get in would have to develop naturally and not through strategizing. I don't want to have to constantly think about how to maintain it.

"Find your mission and follow it." In the last few months I've chosen to go on a different path in life that I'm excited about, that's totally independent of women and dating. Oddly enough, I feel by focusing on that mission, any LTR I do get into, I wouldn't have the time, energy, or willingness to make it a project, as you put it, as the mission is the focus. Rather, a relationship would be secondary to my mission, and I would be good with or without one.
 

samspade

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I agree with your points. My post was from a risk-adverse "protect yourself" perspective, which at the extreme end would just be to not even attempt an LTR.

Personally speaking, I see myself entertaining a relationship again if the conditions are right. Although given my direction in life at the moment, it wouldn't be for a couple years at least. But any relationship I do get in would have to develop naturally and not through strategizing. I don't want to have to constantly think about how to maintain it.

"Find your mission and follow it." In the last few months I've chosen to go on a different path in life that I'm excited about, that's totally independent of women and dating. Oddly enough, I feel by focusing on that mission, any LTR I do get into, I wouldn't have the time, energy, or willingness make it a project, as you put it, as the mission is the focus. Rather, a relationship would be secondary to my mission, and I would be good with or without it.
That's kind of what's happened with me. I have a girlfriend (I guess I'll call her). But I sort of picked her up while pursuing other stuff and have never really put the focus on her, even though she's super cool. Of course I focus on her when I'm with her, but you get what I mean. As a result I'm just much more indifferent to whether she sticks around or not....and of course she sticks around.

I learned this the hard way, in part when I dated girls who didn't like competing with my goals. Faulty frame on my part but I learned.

Trivia - Robert Plant wrote "Ten Years Gone" by Led Zeppelin about a girl who, a decade earlier and well pre-Zep, told him he had to choose between his musical career and his relationship. By the time he wrote the song, Zep was the #1 band in the world; today they are legends.
 

Ricky

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That's kind of what's happened with me. I have a girlfriend (I guess I'll call her). But I sort of picked her up while pursuing other stuff and have never really put the focus on her, even though she's super cool. Of course I focus on her when I'm with her, but you get what I mean. As a result I'm just much more indifferent to whether she sticks around or not....and of course she sticks around.

I learned this the hard way, in part when I dated girls who didn't like competing with my goals. Faulty frame on my part but I learned.

Trivia - Robert Plant wrote "Ten Years Gone" by Led Zeppelin about a girl who, a decade earlier and well pre-Zep, told him he had to choose between his musical career and his relationship. By the time he wrote the song, Zep was the #1 band in the world; today they are legends.
That is such a great Zeppelin song. Need to play that on my guitar again.
 

Pan87

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I'm reaching the same conclusion.

Some may argue against the need to game our LTR, but game, as I see it, is about establishing rapport and building/maintaining interest. If we can't maintain the interest and attraction that led to the LTR in the first place, the expiration date of it is sooner than later.

The point being that if game does not come easy to us, it's going to be a lot of deliberate effort put into one woman. In other words, we're naturally going to become invested to some degree and most men aren't mindful enough to know when they are starting to over-invest & emotionally compromise their game and also their ability to lead. Gradual over-investment happens as onenitus simultaneously creeps in. Frog in boiling water type of situation.

Falling in love (obsession) and developing onenitus blinds us, we subsequently lose both power and perspective. We almost need to be constantly detached, at least to the point where you can sustain a bird's eye view of the relationship indefinitely, in order to have that proper perspective to catch when the dynamic might be shifting in a undesirable way (assuming you want to stay in the LTR).

On the other hand, there's a different set of a problems that arise for us men who don't easily get attached, who can usually remain detached and less invested in the LTR than the girl at all times. One would think that a higher quality chick would eventually want her man to show that he is capable of displaying vulnerability, and to show through his actions more investment in her...to show that he's all in. If us men don't compromise to some degree at some point, this could negatively impact the relationship... But if we over-correct we run the risk of the problems already mentioned earlier...

Some form of a calibrated strategy is required to balance the apparent dichotomy, and thus, the constant need to game. And if the right game doesn't come naturally to us to some degree, we're operating at a disadvantage.

Most men seeking and entering LTRs are at that disadvantage.
This "perfect calibration" in an LTR is a pipedream. It can't be maintained forever. For the perfect calibration to take place then you must remain detached from her and not develop feelings for her. In this scenario (which I've been in many times) you're just stuck with an annoying b!tch who is desperate for you, but you feel nothing for her. Yes, you get a Love Slave who does anything for you, but you must also remain detached and this just means you have an annoying, love sick Girl who is following you around everywhere like a baby duckling following its mother.

This is initially satisfying because you have a slave, but it gets boring and you start to desire new women.

You end up resenting your love slave because you start to realise that this silly girl is only "hooked" on you because you're cold to her.

You could then make the mistake of thinking "think girl is so hooked, I can do anything now" - then you let your guard down and open up to her a bit, spend more time with her......watch the tables turn. The tables turn without you even realizing it because it's such a slow death of attraction. She doesn't even know why it's happening.
 

mrgoodstuff

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This "perfect calibration" in an LTR is a pipedream. It can't be maintained forever. For the perfect calibration to take place then you must remain detached from her and not develop feelings for her. In this scenario (which I've been in many times) you're just stuck with an annoying b!tch who is desperate for you, but you feel nothing for her. Yes, you get a Love Slave who does anything for you, but you must also remain detached and this just means you have an annoying, love sick Girl who is following you around everywhere like a baby duckling following its mother.

This is initially satisfying because you have a slave, but it gets boring and you start to desire new women.

You end up resenting your love slave because you start to realise that this silly girl is only "hooked" on you because you're cold to her.

You could then make the mistake of thinking "think girl is so hooked, I can do anything now" - then you let your guard down and open up to her a bit, spend more time with her......watch the tables turn. The tables turn without you even realizing it because it's such a slow death of attraction. She doesn't even know why it's happening.
You can have electric sex with the same lady for over 5 years at a time. I've done it 3 times. So I wasn't up on game, but was more naturally selfish as a bro and addicted to my hobbies. So I wasn't up under them unless we were getting it in or it's time to sleep. They ALWAYS had desire.
 

Pan87

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You can have electric sex with the same lady for over 5 years at a time. I've done it 3 times. So I wasn't up on game, but was more naturally selfish as a bro and addicted to my hobbies. So I wasn't up under them unless we were getting it in or it's time to sleep. They ALWAYS had desire.
...But as you can see, it eventually falls apart. Arguably it's even worse when it happens with a woman you've invested 5 years in - there's going to be some serious pain and troubles there.

There's no exact timeline on this stuff. Even a beta provider can get 10+ years out of a woman, with several kids, before getting cucked/divorce-raped
 

mrgoodstuff

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...But as you can see, it eventually falls apart. Arguably it's even worse when it happens with a woman you've invested 5 years in - there's going to be some serious pain and troubles there.

There's no exact timeline on this stuff. Even a beta provider can get 10+ years out of a woman, with several kids, before getting cucked/divorce-raped
I fvcked up the first two situations. Those situations could've gone on indefinately, I was an idiot to fvck them up when you get to see what's out there in "the world". The third was on some bull chit, but i got about 5 good years out of it.

The third one got envious of my success outside of her and the confidence, attention and energy that I recieved, and she was hell bent on destroying all of it. She liked the sex enough to keep it going for a few years even though she was hating my guts. Then she figured out that cheating on me and locking me out gave her more bliss. I did that for a couple years then I realized I didn't want my kids to think that's okay, and got the hell outta there.
 
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EyeBRollin

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If there is no concrete evidence, deny. If caught red handed It’s best to admit you did, apologize ONCE and give her the option to leave or live with it.
it drives them crazy..it literally makes them more in love with you when you do it this way.
I used to watch that dumb show the Jersey Shore. Ronnie was a serial cheater. Cheated on his girlfriend in front of everyone multiple times. She finally confronted him on it, and his response was: "yes I fvcked other chicks. Do something about it." Then he would walk away. She was stunned. Then followed and stayed with him.
 

Pan87

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I used to watch that dumb show the Jersey Shore. Ronnie was a serial cheater. Cheated on his girlfriend in front of everyone multiple times. She finally confronted him on it, and his response was: "yes I fvcked other chicks. Do something about it." Then he would walk away. She was stunned. Then followed and stayed with him.
In the real world - She stayed with him, but resented him and got her revenge later. Girls never forget and never forgive. It's just a power struggle and she'll stay with the cheater until she can find a way to hurt him back, and the revenge will come when you least expect it.

The only way to truly win is to not care about her, but then what's the point of having an LTR with someone you don't care about? Do you need a mommy? Better to just be single.
 

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Another point: women can smell a taken man. He becomes more attractive. Men with significant others move about the world with no inhibitions about other women. Most of us always get the most looks when we have a girl at home.
this exact statement is what getting redpilled means to me

Not only learning that this is what happens, but also realising there are few men who resist this attention.

One can almost make a case for keeping men beaten down in a taken relationship in order to remove that seductive aura he gives off that facilitates him cheating.
Is there no other way to force loyalty into a man, other than betatization by one thousand concessions to remove his visible swagger to other women?

What about the idea If you can't beat them, join them(as a woman, do unto them as they do to you by taking a Side f*ckboy)?

There are some successful couples this seems to work.
 

mrgoodstuff

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this exact statement is what getting redpilled means to me

Not only learning that this is what happens, but also realising there are few men who resist this attention.

One can almost make a case for keeping men beaten down in a taken relationship in order to remove that seductive aura he gives off that facilitates him cheating.
Is there no other way to force loyalty into a man, other than betatization by one thousand concessions to remove his visible swagger to other women?

What about the idea If you can't beat them, join them(as a woman, do unto them as they do to you by taking a Side f*ckboy)?

There are some successful couples this seems to work.
That betaization is a "castration" of his masculine aura.
 

EyeBRollin

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this exact statement is what getting redpilled means to me

Not only learning that this is what happens, but also realising there are few men who resist this attention.

One can almost make a case for keeping men beaten down in a taken relationship in order to remove that seductive aura he gives off that facilitates him cheating.
Is there no other way to force loyalty into a man, other than betatization by one thousand concessions to remove his visible swagger to other women?

What about the idea If you can't beat them, join them(as a woman, do unto them as they do to you by taking a Side f*ckboy)?

There are some successful couples this seems to work.
It’s probably biological but women find men with girlfriends / fiancé’s / wives even more attractive. It’s quite deranged. They see a taken man and see him as higher value, especially if his lady is happy with him.
 

christie

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That betaization is a "castration" of his masculine aura.
Yes.
There's only one serious drawback.

He can't turn on his masculine aura like a lightswitch back at home, when its been castrated to fend off other women indirectly outside the home. Castration by one thousand concessions means no more masculinity ANYWHERE anymore...outside AND inside the home.

I think f*mists kinda overlook that important detail. oops.
 
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