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Should we de-fund/abolish the police?

Should we de-fund the police?


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zekko

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You are suggesting here that black people’s resentment towards America’s institutions (which have been oppressive for 400 years) justifies white people’s racist attitudes toward them.
No, no no. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm just observing what's going on, and I see a feedback loop at work. Some police brutalize some minorities, some minorities become resentful and suspicious of the police, which makes them more likely to react poorly when they encounter police, which leads to more brutality. Like the current case in Atlanta, with the man resisting arrest. Doesn't mean he should have been shot, but it was a factor. None of it is justified, but that doesn't mean there isn't a dysfunctional pattern at play here.
 

EyeBRollin

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No, no no. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm just observing what's going on, and I see a feedback loop at work. Some police brutalize some minorities, some minorities become resentful and suspicious of the police, which makes them more likely to react poorly when they encounter police, which leads to more brutality. Like the current case in Atlanta, with the man resisting arrest. Doesn't mean he should have been shot, but it was a factor. None of it is justified, but that doesn't mean there isn't a dysfunctional pattern at play here.
Got it, understood and agreed. Yes this feedback loop you describe is real.

As for Atlanta, there is simply no justification for police fatally shooting a man in the back who is fleeing.
 
U

user43770

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He is an artful dodger, if nothing else.
I find it ludicrous. You want to talk about how cops treat black people, but refuse to acknowledge crime statistics in said city.

If a cop is busting people left and right in a certain part of town, and constantly getting resistance, he's going to plan ahead for it. Like all intelligent humans do.

Are cops overly aggressive? Yes. Do they have a reason to be in this day and age?

Get rid of cops in downtown Minneapolis. Please. Let's see what happens.
 

logicallefty

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I'd like to see some of the big, blue cities defund the police. Give them a dose of reality.
I as a cop completely agree with this. Let’s do a pilot test in Some of the big blue cities and see how it goes. Establish a physical perimeter wall around the police area and non-police area with military keeping things separate. I think it would be fun to watch from a drone in the sky.
 

Spaz

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The truth of the matter is that people given an excuse for failure will fail, and those for whom failure isn't an option will succeed.
Of course it is.

People who have darker skin color, for example blacks, faces the most discrimination and it becomes a cycle for them, and for society at large.

In all seriousness, who exactly is at fault?

From my observations, there are 2 kinds of blacks in the case of Asia, Nigerians, Tamil Indians, Rohingya, Bangladeshi, etc are often looked down upon mostly because of their collective character : dirty, smelly, snakish behaviour, laziness, uneducated, criminal activities, etc.

Then you're got blacks from Northern India or those Singh's who are widely respected within Asia simply because they are educated, well mannered, cultured and project worthiness.

Some of these communities need to buck up and surpass their current level to gain the respect that everyone deserves BUT they do need a helping hand too as change will take a long time, decades even. Yet they themselves MUST take the initiative to start it off.

For now, the police force needs to inject some professionalism, clear cut rules of when to use of deadly force and clear penalties for non compliance.

The perception of the entire world is that American police are too trigger happy, as to why they are like that, there could be a multiple reasons; racism, fear of being shot, police culture, etc. Those reasons doesn't really matter, what matters is that right now they have to evolve and keep up with world standards, American police is looking like they're only at the level of 3rd world policing and that's sad for a develope country.
 
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Epicenter

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The perception of the entire world is that American police are too trigger happy, as to why they are like that, there could be a multiple reasons; racism, fear of being shot, police culture, etc. Those reasons doesn't really matter, what matters is that right now they have to evolve and keep up with world standards, American police is looking like they're only at the level of 3rd world policing and that's sad for a develope country.
Yes it is expected more from the USA but it is relatively weak in some areas as far as I can remember. For example regarding the most homicides is the US at place 94 from 220 countries. That is quite a high rate. That makes the job of the police tough and dangerous I guess.

Interestingly they get quite some trust from the people:

" Americans trust police officers, military leaders and local public officials more than members of Congress, tech leaders and journalists, according to a study published by the Pew Research Center on Thursday. "

 

Spaz

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Yes it is expected more from the USA but it is relatively weak in some areas as far as I can remember. For example regarding the most homicides is the US at place 94 from 220 countries. That is quite a high rate. That makes the job of the police tough and dangerous I guess.

Interestingly they get quite some trust from the people:

" Americans trust police officers, military leaders and local public officials more than members of Congress, tech leaders and journalists, according to a study published by the Pew Research Center on Thursday. "

This whole issue about race relationships can also be viewed or tied to what's going on in Sosuave.

The vast majority of men here don't want to evolve BUT still comes on here complaining abt how women are BAD to them.

And the worse part is, it's the men themselves that gives PERMISSION for women that's in a relationship with them to BULLY them endlessly.

YES BULLY!

YET they take no responsibility whatsoever AND that's the core problem - because when you don't admit it you WILL never change.
 

EyeBRollin

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Yes it is expected more from the USA but it is relatively weak in some areas as far as I can remember. For example regarding the most homicides is the US at place 94 from 220 countries. That is quite a high rate. That makes the job of the police tough and dangerous I guess.

Interestingly they get quite some trust from the people:

" Americans trust police officers, military leaders and local public officials more than members of Congress, tech leaders and journalists, according to a study published by the Pew Research Center on Thursday. "

In the United States, trust with police has a huge discrepancy by race. Black people are the only major demographic group where a majority do not trust the police. The explanation for that is tied to police relationship throughout American history. While we appreciate commentary from folks outside the USA, these are uninformed opinions. This is a complicated topic even for those who actually live here, so it’s impossible for those who don’t to understand.

This whole issue about race relationships can also be viewed or tied to what's going on in Sosuave.
There is no such thing as “race relationships.” Children aren’t born with a desire to separate by skin color; it is a learned behavior. As I said before, you’re likening the issue of American police brutality to self-help propaganda which about sums up your credibility on this topic.
 

samspade

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There is no such thing as “race relationships.” Children aren’t born with a desire to separate by skin color; it is a learned behavior.
Your second claim doesn't prove your first. I was born illiterate, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as literacy.
 

Spaz

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There is no such thing as “race relationships.” Children aren’t born with a desire to separate by skin color; it is a learned behavior.
Try sending ur black toddler into a rural Chinese or Jap kindergarten.

I'm sure those Eastern toddlers will enjoy that ONE singularity.

Then you can come up here and talk c0ck.
 

Spaz

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Not everyone gets his head screwed on right by mommy and daddy. But, there comes a time when you can no longer blame your parents for your behavior, and it's time for some tough-love type self-parenting. The same goes for blaming history for fuucking you up. Tough shiit. We all have problems. Suck it up. Do your best. And, stop crying about the hand you were dealt. Everyone wants a royal flush, but most of us just have to make do with "two of a kind"(ballls)
The blacks in America are actually in a much better situation as compared to other blacks in many parts of the world.

They have access to education.

They have access to healthcare.

They have access to liberties that other races in other countries would die for.

They even have social security which no one in Asia has.

I'm sure there are many other benefits.

And yet what do most of them do with all these benefits ?

I'm sorry, I can't find it within me to have sympathy for a group of people who are just plain lazy.

But you will have my sympathy with regards to police brutality.
 

samspade

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You know, if the Joe Biden of the 1994 "super predator " crime bill were running, today, he might actually have a chance against Trump. But, that guy is dead and buried. He wasn't wrong when he said he didn't care about their excuses, but he wouldn't dare say the same thing, today. This Joe Biden's sack is in his wife's purse, next to his Alzheimer's pills.

If we did set up a temporary cetralized task force on policing, we should let Giuliani run it. Maybe, set a 10 year non-renewable sunset on the task force.
I wouldn't put too much stock in what any of these nutsacks say to get votes.
 

Epicenter

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This is a complicated topic even for those who actually live here, so it’s impossible for those who don’t to understand.

Yes most topics are complicated. That doesn't mean an outside perspective is uninformed. It may look that way to you. Most people don't do self improvement that is why they have sometimes a different world view. So their views are biased. All the information will be bend to fit into their agenda. So it does not mean that much that one is from the country.

Though I see your viewpoint but I am not new to the topic. The conversation should have the benefit for us all to dive deeper into the topic and become better informed.
There is a reason USA imports intellectuals on the highest level because their drive and intelligence are needed to better life. So outsiders are not automatically worse.
 

Epicenter

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This whole issue about race relationships can also be viewed or tied to what's going on in Sosuave.

The vast majority of men here don't want to evolve BUT still comes on here complaining abt how women are BAD to them.

And the worse part is, it's the men themselves that gives PERMISSION for women that's in a relationship with them to BULLY them endlessly.

YES BULLY!

YET they take no responsibility whatsoever AND that's the core problem - because when you don't admit it you WILL never change.
I agree. On a lower level first thing people do is blaming others. Some evolve from that stage and put in the work some don't.

(On a philosophical level I am a determinist that means there is no free will people have no choice. So they don't have "real responsibility". It's nature doing it's thing)
 

zekko

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On a philosophical level I am a determinist that means there is no free will people have no choice. So they don't have "real responsibility". It's nature doing it's thing
That's interesting, I don't think I've ever heard anyone else say they are a determinist on this forum. It seems to blow against the DJ idea that you can "will" yourself into being a top 3% male (or whatever percentage it is this week. I've been seeing 1% mentioned more lately). I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no free will, but I do think it is true to a certain extent - most people are prisoners of their behaviors. I know there are studies that show people's personalities are formed at a certain age, for example. I suppose some people can change, but if it's against their nature it's extremely, extremely difficult.
 

Spaz

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I agree. On a lower level first thing people do is blaming others. Some evolve from that stage and put in the work some don't.

(On a philosophical level I am a determinist that means there is no free will people have no choice. So they don't have "real responsibility". It's nature doing it's thing)
Philosophy can be equated with how you think.

How you think + how you do things = the results you see in ur daily life.

So if you change ur philosophy, would the results also change?
 

Epicenter

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Philosophy can be equated with how you think.

How you think + how you do things = the results you see in ur daily life.

So if you change ur philosophy, would the results also change?

Philosophy as action:
The word philosophy is used in different contexts. On a narrower level like when you say: "This is the philosophy of our company". In this context it can be used as "way to think". So if you change your philosophy of your company your results change. In this context I would agree.


Philosophy as a question:
On a higher level "philosophy" means to deal with the mystery of life. Do we really exist the way we think we exist? Is life deterministic? Even if life is deterministic is it better to act like it's not most of the time? If free will exists, how is it even possible? Are the laws of science real or just historical patterns? What is the value of life? and so on.
 

Epicenter

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That's interesting, I don't think I've ever heard anyone else say they are a determinist on this forum. It seems to blow against the DJ idea that you can "will" yourself into being a top 3% male (or whatever percentage it is this week. I've been seeing 1% mentioned more lately). I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no free will, but I do think it is true to a certain extent - most people are prisoners of their behaviors. I know there are studies that show people's personalities are formed at a certain age, for example. I suppose some people can change, but if it's against their nature it's extremely, extremely difficult.
I guess in real life I act like I have a free will.

Back in my mind I think physics have to follow laws. So I can not have any real freedom.

I think that the hot girl I see is basically a electrical inpulse that goes into my brain. On the other hand I am horny.

So practically I do more believe in free will. "Theoretically and philosophically" I don't do much believe in it.

Intellectuals often discuss if the "philosophical" believe in determinism has actually an effect on real life. Some argue that one beliefs in determinism because they want to give up on life and are lazy.

I think that the "push it mentality" correlates often with the believe in free will. That might be the reason that this practical philosophy is the predominant one here.

But when you look closer to it often there is a higher philosophical level to it. Many people with this mentality often can reveal that the reason they "push hard to get girls" is because they have no choice because they are so "addicted, in love" with girls.

Same with people who are successful. They often talk about "pushing it" but when asked they don't know what really makes them "push".

On a deeper level who can even answer the question: what is the "I"? What is identity?

In Germany we had a popular book from an philosopher. The titel was:

"Who am I? If yes, how many?

Btw I am a fan of Captain Kirk too and I agree with your signature.
 

Spaz

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Philosophy as a question:
On a higher level "philosophy" means to deal with the mystery of life. Do we really exist the way we think we exist? Is life deterministic? Even if life is deterministic is it better to act like it's not most of the time? If free will exists, how is it even possible? Are the laws of science real or just historical patterns? What is the value of life? and so on.
Philosophy is just how we think.

There's no higher, lower or middle.

Sometimes it deals with facts, sometimes it deals in delusions and yet othertimes it deals in a set of belief systems.

What's of importance is the result.

If the result you get svcks then how you think needs rearrangement.
 

Epicenter

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Philosophy is just how we think.

There's no higher, lower or middle.

Sometimes it deals with facts, sometimes it deals in delusions and yet othertimes it deals in a set of belief systems.

What's of importance is the result.

If the result you get svcks then how you think needs rearrangement.
In general I agree but things tend to get complicated.

Even if you know the results suck what you don't know exactly is why it sucks. What methods you should use as an alternative. If you should just randomly do something else or get more data about it. Where to get the data? Which are the relevant one? How long shold you invest in a special data point? Basically how do I deal with the unknown. Just changing your way of thinking might not be enough.

Additonally you don't know if the results just suck now. Maybe in the future it would reveal itself as a good result. So you have no idea if it really sucks (with the future counted in)

Also when one changes his way of thinking it might have bad side effects like taking an alcoholic his alcohol away and he commits suicide.

Bottom line is if you want to solve a complicated problem you have to thinnk complicated. So things are not easy on a higher level.

It's like Rocket science. There is a reason why it takes so much time get to the moon again. It's because it's complicated. You have to put a lot of energy into it. You have to change the way to think all the time basically.

Solving the problem might suck more then getting the result.
 
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