Should we de-fund/abolish the police?

[user43770]

Suddenly, European nations are having to worry about their own defense. And they're seriously starting to think about the possibilities.

 

[AttackFormation]

Why do you think capitalism is not desirable?

-Augustus-

Because it isn't built on positive liberty: control over decisions and consequences to the extent they affect you. Instead it is built on negative liberty, and thus it sanctions authoritarian economic relations which is a contradiction against [economic] democracy.

This leads to deprivation, exploitation, and suffering - although much of it could be alleviated with the right kind of capitalist government, this doesn't happen in practice and capitalism's inherent tendencies (like cost shifting, profit maximization, regulatory capture and a large distance between decision makers and the affected) largely work against it. Statism is also undesirable because a state is an authoritarian institution just like a corporation, and totalitarianism is even worse as your civil liberties are removed. But capitalism relies on and always has relied on the state, including for violence against organized labor.

That said, I don't think capitalism should be replaced in a blind, destructive frenzy nor do I think democracy in of itself is inherently good because people may not be good (just ask Socrates). Virtue in culture is fundamental to organizing a successful society for a pro-social species like ours, regardless of which form of government there is. I am pragmatic and pessimistic.

And what do you mean by “a progressive implementation of economic democracy“?

-Augustus-

It should be implemented in a way that doesn't cause civil war.

ok, and what is economic democracy?

"Economic democracy is a socioeconomic philosophy that proposes to shift decision-making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders to a larger group of public stakeholders that includes workers, customers, suppliers, neighbours and the broader public. No single definition or approach encompasses economic democracy, ..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_democracy

 

[zekko]

I get it, but a vocal minority should NOT get to make the silent majority less safe. There are people in that city who weren't responsible for any of the mayhem, attempted to discourage or stop it, spoke out against it(at their own risk), and lack the resources to leave. If Minneapolis goes through with this, every politician in that city should be rounded up and publicly executed, for serving their flock to the wolves.....after a speedy trial, of course.

And as has been noted, if there are fewer police, it's the poorest people who are going to suffer the most.

 

[user43770]

This may be overly optimistic of me, but I suspect the recent dose of reality may be sufficient to flip some of those cities to the Right, this election cycle.

 

[Xenom0rph]

As @Solomon already pointed out, abolishing the police department would only encourage armed vigilante gangs patrolling around like they're the Justice League and it would only result in more violence and more looting. Businesses would leave, residents would move away and the communities would slowly die.

Drug gangs would move in and set up shop unchecked.

Abolishing the police dept is an idiotic idea.

 

[user43770]

As @Solomon already pointed out, abolishing the police department would only encourage armed vigilante gangs patrolling around like they're the Justice League and it would only result in more violence and more looting. Businesses would leave, residents would move away and the communities would slowly die.

Drug gangs would move in and set up shop unchecked.

Abolishing the police dept is an idiotic idea.

Way to state the obvious. You gonna get worked up about it?

Obviously, no police is a horrible idea. Who would protect the elites? Lollol

 

[Xenom0rph]

Way to state the obvious. You gonna get worked up about it?

Obviously, no police is a horrible idea. Who would protect the elites? Lollol

Stating the obvious is necessary because some people are so naive that they can't see it - to the detriment of everyone else.

 

[Machine10033]

Are you kidding me? Defund the police? You will have warlords in no time! There is a reason they are called the sheepdog. There are seriously bad people out there and sometimes the only think preventing them from victimizing people is the potential that they will encounter the police.

Let’s also take this a step further many of these men are inherently violent by nature. The police are trained through their academy to use violence against these individuals....most of our current male populous have no idea how to even hold gun, defend themselves, protect their homes, or protect their families.

Defunding the police or disbanding the police is taking away the last line of defense for many people. Same with demilitarize the police. As soon as their is a school shooter with a rifle or assault rifle how many cops would respond if they had a handgun, no ballistic vest, ballistic helmet, smoke Grenades or flash bangs. Police reforms are needed but in no way should any non criminal want the police weakened.

 

[thinker]

First I want to thank the protesters for finding the cure to the China virus, now we don't have to wear a mask and be socially distant. @Xenom0rph the police and all government services in these cities are going to lose some funding. Most of these blue cities were already having financial problems before all of this. Now you have to add the problems that will arise from these riots. This has happened before in major US cities so here is what will happen. Businesses will begin to leave as well as professionals and other high income earners, this will decimate the tax base. You can see it starting to happen already, in Chicago the mayor is begging companies to stay and in Minneapolis the mayor is also trying to come up with some magic fairy dust to try and fix things. @ShePays get ready for story after story in the nightly news about cities being overrun with gangs and violence, if anybody doubts this the city of Chicago has well over 200 murders so far this year, what do any of you think will happen when their are less police to try and keep some type of normalcy. I am going to guess the bodies are really going to start stacking up, which will be followed by crying and pearl clutching from the same people who wanted to abolish the police. As for what I think about the police here it is. Law enforcement has been given massive amounts of money for years and they have been putting it from what I can see into technology. They have fallen in love with all of their cool new toys, but they don't seem to have put all that much money or effort into training the guys on the front lines. They need to work on improving protocols and training. There are non lethal ways to make people comply.

 

[Xenom0rph]

First I want to thank the protesters for finding the cure to the China virus, now we don't have to wear a mask and be socially distant. @Xenom0rph the police and all government services in these cities are going to lose some funding. Most of these blue cities were already having financial problems before all of this. Now you have to add the problems that will arise from these riots. This has happened before in major US cities so here is what will happen. Businesses will begin to leave as well as professionals and other high income earners, this will decimate the tax base. You can see it starting to happen already, in Chicago the mayor is begging companies to stay and in Minneapolis the mayor is also trying to come up with some magic fairy dust to try and fix things. @ShePays get ready for story after story in the nightly news about cities being overrun with gangs and violence, if anybody doubts this the city of Chicago has well over 200 murders so far this year, what do any of you think will happen when their are less police to try and keep some type of normalcy. I am going to guess the bodies are really going to start stacking up, which will be followed by crying and pearl clutching from the same people who wanted to abolish the police. As for what I think about the police here it is. Law enforcement has been given massive amounts of money for years and they have been putting it from what I can see into technology. They have fallen in love with all of their cool new toys, but they don't seem to have put all that much money or effort into training the guys on the front lines. They need to work on improving protocols and training. There are non lethal ways to make people comply.

You're very correct..........It will eventually get to the point where these cities don't even have to defund/abolish the police because businesses and residents will leave in droves and thus there will be no more tax revenue to properly fund the police or fire departments.... and thus the cycle of poverty, crime and violence will continue because reactionary people suspend their reason and logic in favor of nonsensical half-baked ideas......

Minneapolis will eventually join the ranks of Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, Detroit, etc......

 

[samspade]

We could divert the funding back to the mafia. They're better organized, keep the streets safer and don't riot like the cops.

 

[Seductions_Mad_Scientist]

That's a good point. If they want to increase the quality of police work, they should increase funding, not decrease it. If you're not happy wit the way your car is running, buying a cheaper one is not usually the answer.

A lot of these cases where cops use deadly force are the result of them being or feeling threatened. When I grew up, police went out with a partner. Now they're sent out to deal with criminals on their own. Having a partner would decrease the likelihood that the would have to use deadly force, and have someone to help keep them accountable.


Some of the owners who tried to protect their businesses from rioters were killed or beaten nearly to death. But even if the police were willing to help, many of the mayors had ordered them to stand down.


TyTe'EyEz yes vote was in the spirit of "This is what they want, give it to them, and let them live with the consequences". If Minneapolis became a smoldering hole, would we really miss it? Look at all the trouble they've caused. Maybe they could turn it into a new tourist site, the "Grand Canyon of the Midwest".

Let me be clear. I'm not saying that we will as a society properly address this issue-set.

I'm saying that even in a dialetic sense we are missing the point entirely.

We're arguing about the colour of the paint on the walls while we're sinking on the titanic.

Imagining a constrained utopia is a useful thing to do(i.e. what would be the perfect realistic scenario) . But it's often useful more in the sense of allowing you to see how far off-target we are.

Cheers

 

[zekko]

Let me be clear. I'm not saying that we will as a society properly address this issue-set.

A lot of people seem hopeful: "This time is different, this time racism will get fixed". I was hopeful when I was younger. After nearly 60 years, and things seem just as broken down now as ever, I don't feel very hopeful. Maybe the young people will usher in a better world, but I am very disturbed by the seemingly hate-filled actions of many of the young protesters. Check out the current thread with the video of the protestor making fun of the short cop. Doesn't fill me with hope that the new generation is going to usher in a new era of love.

There is a possibility there will be improvements in the way the police are run, but unfortunately it seems just as likely they will end up hurting things as making them better. I just wonder what happens when the next incident occurs, because it will occur. It's the law of averages, there are too many police/citizen interactions every day for it not to.

 

[Seductions_Mad_Scientist]

A lot of people seem hopeful: "This time is different, this time racism will get fixed". I was hopeful when I was younger. After nearly 60 years, and things seem just as broken down now as ever, I don't feel very hopeful. Maybe the young people will usher in a better world, but I am very disturbed by the seemingly hate-filled actions of many of the young protesters. Check out the current thread with the video of the protestor making fun of the short cop. Doesn't fill me with hope that the new generation is going to usher in a new era of love.

There is a possibility there will be improvements in the way the police are run, but unfortunately it seems just as likely they will end up hurting things as making them better. I just wonder what happens when the next incident occurs, because it will occur. It's the law of averages, there are too many police/citizen interactions every day for it not to.

Agreed.

I'd be elated if there were even small consistent improvements.

However I think this is just the next story in the news cycle and will eventually blow over if covid regulations ease because people will go back to status quo normal life.

In the same way George Floyd took over the social consciousness from covid, covid can take it back.

 

[Spaz]

The police force in America should be dismantled AND THEN rebuilt from the ground up.

There's plenty of professional police force in the world to emulate from, Japan, Singapore and even Europe - I rate them as excellent.

 

[samspade]

Agreed.

I'd be elated if there were even small consistent improvements.

However I think this is just the next story in the news cycle and will eventually blow over if covid regulations ease because people will go back to status quo normal life.

In the same way George Floyd took over the social consciousness from covid, covid can take it back.

I agree. Sadly, Americans are not very good anymore at digging in for long term solutions. A lot of people couldn't even handle a two month indoor recess without bytching. The public will probably get distracted again and forget all about this issue until the next execution-by-cop. I'm glad this version of the US wasn't the one dealing with WW2.

 

[Seductions_Mad_Scientist]

I agree. Sadly, Americans are not very good anymore at digging in for long term solutions. A lot of people couldn't even handle a two month indoor recess without bytching. The public will probably get distracted again and forget all about this issue until the next execution-by-cop. I'm glad this version of the US wasn't the one dealing with WW2.

Ya That was particularly weird.

less than half a years if you count from the first case in Wuhan. (180 ish days)

If the implicit time-horizon that people consider medium to long term is lets say 3 months then how in the **** are we supposed to motivate people on huge goals that take multiple 10 decades, thousands of people and billions of dollars to solve?

Like if you told someone that if they could earn more in one well researched transaction over 10 years ( the payoff of a large long term investment) than they could in 20 of traditional work they'd pull some bs about how they are both too hard and want it all now.

smgdh

Even if you take 80 years thats only like 29,224 days your whole life is potentially less than 30,000 days.

Cheers,

 

[Mike41090]

Like someone mentioned above. Anyone who thinks the police should be abolished is clinically insane in my opinion and secretly just wants to see the world burn, plain and simple. Defunding the police? Hmmmm, that’s kinda a tricky one. Another poster mentioned how PD’s invest a lot of their budget into technology which I think hit the nail on the head. Body cameras, department phones, drones, you name it. Don’t get me wrong, these things are HUGE when it comes to policing. Having a portable phone rolling up to 911 calls, you can figure out EXACTLY who you are dealing with before you even deal with them. And body cameras protect police officers more so then the public thinks. The way i kinda see it, within PD departments, the right people are simply just not in the right place and that is an internal problem, has nothing to do with money. People who are capable and who SHOULD serve on the frontlines (so to speak) apply to other units to GET OFF the frontlines or work a cushy gig and not have to deal with the bs and stress, and quite frankly I do not blame them. This would never happen but I think pay should INCREASE for people on the front lines, so all the good and qualified cops have to apply and fight to get a spot. Because a bigger paycheck defnitely creates more incentive in my opinion.............but in the grand scheme of things, let’s be honest guys, I’m not a genius when it comes to individual city politics but out of ALL the programs, departments, etc. in a cities budget, they choose to defund the PD? Especially with all these weak ass progressive leaders in charge? I honestly can’t even imagine some of the **** they dump
Money into considering they’ve been playing into the protesters and Rioters narrative....... After seeing what happened to Jacob Frey at the Minneapolis Protest where he got Q and A’d, who happened to look like some clueless college freshman who didn’t have a clue what was going on. I can’t even imagine where these city leaders budget the city money. Just my two cents though, I do want to see money put into minority neighborhoods that offer services that you see in nicer neighborhoods for sure. But WHY in the world, specifically, does it have to come from the police department? Seems like a knee jerk “eye for an eye” type of situation that has zero basis.

 

[Who Dares Win]

The police force in America should be dismantled AND THEN rebuilt from the ground up.

There's plenty of professional police force in the world to emulate from, Japan, Singapore and even Europe - I rate them as excellent.

No european country deals with "diversity" and gangs as much as the american police, maybe the british and french ones while marginally the german ones.

Any police force in Europe is not trained nor equipped to deal with delicate situations as there.

You only need to check the average patrol in southern europe to realized a bulky guy in a bad mood could knock them out with minimal effort, they have guns but cant use them nor know how to use them.

In few years a reality check will happen in europe too.

 

[zekko]

This would never happen but I think pay should INCREASE for people on the front lines, so all the good and qualified cops have to apply and fight to get a spot.

If you want better teachers, you don't advocate cutting their pay. You want to give incentive for more, better quality people to apply. I've heard protesters demand that we take away police pensions. This does nothing to improve police work, but is just petty revenge.

Similarly, what does taking Paw Patrol off the air accomplish? Makes sure that children growing up have no positive police role models on TV in case they decide to become police officers? Equality is good, justice is good, but some of the fringe stuff these radicals are asking for is not going to help matters at all.