Should we de-fund/abolish the police?

[Augustus_McCrae]

Aha.. so you simply mean "statism" and "totalitarianism". Do you think libertarian socialists are statists or totalitarians?



It would be 51% of their income. Sweden has a very low income inequality, but a very high wealth inequality - #9th most unequal in the world in 2018, whereas the US is at #11.

Do you believe that people who make a greater income should be taxed more (Percentagewise) ? And if so, why?

-Augustus-

 

[AttackFormation]

Contrary to some sources on the Internet, the term “libertarian socialist“ is an oxymoron.

Why do you mention “income inequality“ and “wealth inequality“?

-Augustus-

"One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that for the first time in my memory, we, "our side," had captured a crucial word from the enemy ... "Libertarians" ... had long been simply a polite word for anti-private property left-wing anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over" - Murray Rothbard, The Betrayal of the American Right.

"The use of the term libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate libertaire, coined in a letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Etymology

"In the United States, libertarianism was popularized as a synonym for liberalism in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classical liberal himself. Russell justified the choice of the term as follows: ..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Etymology

Do you think this is fake history?

Would you concede that "libertarianism" is really divided into left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism as along this image, or do you think the left-libertarians are still an "oxymoron" because you define them to be?

Just to be clear -

Is that 51% marginal tax rate (51% on every $1 over $100,000)?

or

51% effective tax rate ($100,000 nets only $49,000 total in the course of the year)?

Yeah forgot to mention that: it's a marginal rate, although the floor is lower than 100 000$.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

"One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that for the first time in my memory, we, "our side," had captured a crucial word from the enemy ... "Libertarians" ... had long been simply a polite word for anti-private property left-wing anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over" - Murray Rothbard, The Betrayal of the American Right.

"The use of the term libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate libertaire, coined in a letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Etymology

"In the United States, libertarianism was popularized as a synonym for liberalism in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classical liberal himself. Russell justified the choice of the term as follows: ..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Etymology

Do you think this is fake history?

Would you concede that "libertarianism" is really divided into left-libertarianism and right-libertarianism as along this image, or do you think the left-libertarians are still an "oxymoron" because you define them to be?

View attachment 4263



Yeah forgot to mention that: it's a marginal rate, although the floor is lower than 100 000$.

The definition of libertarianism to which I am referring to involves the following: A political philosophy that upholds individual liberty as a core principle. Maximum freedom and autonomy, freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment. Restriction of coercive social institutions and limited state power.

-Augustus-

 

[AttackFormation]

Do you believe that people who make a greater income should be taxed more (Percentagewise) ? And if so, why?

-Augustus-

I'm not that concerned over whether "income" is taxed at a flat or progressive rate.

I am concerned about dividing "income" into what used to be called earned income and unearned income - the concept of economic rent arising from platform monopolies, barriers to entry (but also to exit, especially for individuals' choices), anticompetitive practices, externalities (like pollution and burnout, or benefitting from public infrastructure and spending), market cornering (such as in real estate, particularly since land is a fixed and unevenly valuable supply), privatized natural monopolies (like commercial banking that creates the money supply), and inheritances that source back to acts of violence (such as privatization by land enclosure, or income from slavery).

I don't think capitalism is a desirable form of government, but I think a progressive implementation of economic democracy is the way to solve that, not "taxation of income". In other words, I'm a left-libertarian.

 

[AttackFormation]

The definition of libertarianism to which I am referring to involves the following: A political philosophy that upholds individual liberty as a core principle. Maximum freedom and autonomy, freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment. Restriction of coercive social institutions and limited state power.

-Augustus-

Yes... right-libertarianism is based on negative liberty as an ideal (freedom is to be free from violence and fraud) whereas left-libertarianism is based on positive liberty as an ideal (freedom is control over decisions and consequences to the extent they affect you).

 

[user43770]

About the riots specifically:

1) That it's easier to change your life than to change an entire system. He'd probably advise minorities living in Minneapolis to move - maybe even outside of the USA.

2) That protesting or rioting can make you a target - the government can't track everybody, contrary to popular belief, but it will track those who seek attention.

3) That business owners who are victims of looting should not rely on police for protection.

4) That organized solutions are group traps. You sacrifice money, time, and freedom for limited results. (Circles back to #1.)

5) That feeling unnecessarily guilty over the state of affairs is being in the Morality Trap.

I could probably go on and on...

I respect the hell out of Harry, but the libertarian movement died with him. Their platitudes, while justifiable, aren't realistic. Same as liberals.

 

[user43770]

@samspade not to say that a person shouldn't read "how I found freedom in an unfree world."

Game changer for me and you. Red pill before there was one. I'd take a knee before Harry Browne, as king.

 

[samspade]

@samspade not to say that a person shouldn't read "how I found freedom in an unfree world."

Game changer for me and you. Red pill before there was one. I'd take a knee before Harry Browne, as king.

Agreed on both posts. It's not realistic from a governing standpoint. Otherwise we'd have competing sewer systems and interstates.

But from a standpoint of personal sovereignty, he was spot on.

And he wouldn't want you to take a knee!

 

[zekko]

I'd take a knee before Harry Browne, as king.

What is up with all this taking a knee business? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it is odd that there was the anthem protest in the NFL with athletes taking a knee, and then that cop murdered George Floyd with his knee, kneeling in almost the same position. Kind of weird.

 

[user43770]

Agreed on both posts. It's not realistic from a governing standpoint. Otherwise we'd have competing sewer systems and interstates.

But from a standpoint of personal sovereignty, he was spot on.

And he wouldn't want you to take a knee!

He would have been an intelligent, benevolent king. He was a good person, and I don't say that about many people.

There are so many holes you can poke in libertarianism, if you want to be realistic.

 

[samspade]

What is up with all this taking a knee business? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it is odd that there was the anthem protest in the NFL with athletes taking a knee, and then that cop murdered George Floyd with his knee, kneeling in almost the same position. Kind of weird.

That's what I didn't understand about the NFL thing in the first place. Taking a knee is traditionally a sign of respect and deference.

I guess now the knee thing is in context of Floyd, as a remembrance. Kind of like how Christians wear a cross, the thing Christ was nailed to and died an agonizing death on.

*Edit, before anyone takes offense...I'm only pointing out that the cross is a macabre symbol.

 

[user43770]

What is up with all this taking a knee business? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it is odd that there was the anthem protest in the NFL with athletes taking a knee, and then that cop murdered George Floyd with his knee, kneeling in almost the same position. Kind of weird.

It's a show of submission.

 

[user43770]

@zekko the knee hold is common around the world for police. Bowing before an NFL commissioner, on the other hand...

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

I'm not that concerned over whether "income" is taxed at a flat or progressive rate.

I am concerned about dividing "income" into what used to be called earned income and unearned income - the concept of economic rent arising from platform monopolies, barriers to entry (but also to exit, especially for individuals' choices), anticompetitive practices, externalities (like pollution and burnout, or benefitting from public infrastructure and spending), market cornering (such as in real estate, particularly since land is a fixed and unevenly valuable supply), privatized natural monopolies (like commercial banking that creates the money supply), and inheritances that source back to acts of violence (such as privatization by land enclosure, or income from slavery).

I don't think capitalism is a desirable form of government, but I think a progressive implementation of economic democracy is the way to solve that, not "taxation of income". In other words, I'm a left-libertarian.

Why do you think capitalism is not desirable?

-Augustus-

 

[user43770]

Why do you think capitalism is not desirable?

-Augustus-

Because it ultimately results in the current state of all western nation's?

Sorry, I was thinking of democracy

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

I'm not that concerned over whether "income" is taxed at a flat or progressive rate.

I am concerned about dividing "income" into what used to be called earned income and unearned income - the concept of economic rent arising from platform monopolies, barriers to entry (but also to exit, especially for individuals' choices), anticompetitive practices, externalities (like pollution and burnout, or benefitting from public infrastructure and spending), market cornering (such as in real estate, particularly since land is a fixed and unevenly valuable supply), privatized natural monopolies (like commercial banking that creates the money supply), and inheritances that source back to acts of violence (such as privatization by land enclosure, or income from slavery).

I don't think capitalism is a desirable form of government, but I think a progressive implementation of economic democracy is the way to solve that, not "taxation of income". In other words, I'm a left-libertarian.

And what do you mean by “a progressive implementation of economic democracy“?

-Augustus-

 

[EyeBRollin]

Because it ultimately results in the current state of all western nation's?

Western nations are capitalist?

 

[Alvafe]

I'm not that concerned over whether "income" is taxed at a flat or progressive rate.

I am concerned about dividing "income" into what used to be called earned income and unearned income - the concept of economic rent arising from platform monopolies, barriers to entry (but also to exit, especially for individuals' choices), anticompetitive practices, externalities (like pollution and burnout, or benefitting from public infrastructure and spending), market cornering (such as in real estate, particularly since land is a fixed and unevenly valuable supply), privatized natural monopolies (like commercial banking that creates the money supply), and inheritances that source back to acts of violence (such as privatization by land enclosure, or income from slavery).

I don't think capitalism is a desirable form of government, but I think a progressive implementation of economic democracy is the way to solve that, not "taxation of income". In other words, I'm a left-libertarian.

ok, and what is economic democracy?

 

[user43770]

Western nations are capitalist?

To varying degrees, yes

 

[user43770]

@EyeBRollin some countries covertly use capitalism to fuel their socialism, but those chickens have been coming home to roost since Trump has been in office