Self Improvement Is "Weird"

[Plinco]

You seem to be more interested in an argument than critique...

What's the difference? An argument can most certainly be a critique.

You think that because you ignore advice and continue to do things your own way, you're somehow setting an example for "independent thinking".

I've gotten much better results after doing things my way. Do you think I or anyone else is obligated to follow advice?

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Yep, and as Revelation cautions us: Their hair will be as the hair of women, and their teeth as the teeth of lions. Strange, perilous world we all inhabit

Pilgrim 14:8 Their hair will be as the hair of Barons, and their teeth as the teeth as lambs.

 

[Plinco]

This is a matter of social grace. Not independent mindedness.

People who lack this grace and the interpersonal skills that come with them sometimes claim they’re a “lone wolf” who “people just don’t understand”. However, this is self-deceit, because the reality of such individuals is that they’re recluses who are poorly socialized.

Part of personal development is improving your ability with people. Humans are social beings, so socializing carries significance within human dynamics. A huge part of that is communication, which is NOT limited solely to the content of speech, but also the tonality of the person, their body language, and individual particularities (e.g. personality, character, mood, etc.)—all of which nuance the message being conveyed since they’re forms of self-expression. Women are especially sensitive to subcommunication, hence why 2 men can say and do the exact same things, yet one is deemed attractive while the other is not.

Ultimately, you don’t change people’s minds by reasoning with them using logical, factual rationale. You do so by social persuasion, eloquence, and beautifying the form of something to them rather than focusing on the substance. If you wish to improve yourself more, this will be something you need to work on.

This is a very common misunderstanding. People conflate isolation with independence, or rationality for a lack of emotion. Reason and emotion are not mutually exclusive but are companions. You'll feel much stronger emotions when you're clear headed and can integrate everything back to yourself, in other words, you can think with clarity how some thing or an idea affects you. Talk to any recovering drug addict and they'll tell you that clarity of mind affected their emotional state.

Socialization is pattern recognition. That's all. Nothing special about that in general. However one must consider that people don't always act rational. Non-forced obedience to "authority" figures is not rational, and yet people consider it to be a matter of 'social grace' to surrender themselves for the sake of someone else's interests. Part of developing yourself is breaking off habits that are for the sake of 'social grace' and not of reason.

Something I like to say is that some rules are meant to be followed and some rules are mean to be broken.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

This is a very common misunderstanding. People conflate isolation with independence, or rationality for a lack of emotion. Reason and emotion are not mutually exclusive but are companions. You'll feel much stronger emotions when you're clear headed and can integrate everything back to yourself, in other words, you can think with clarity how some thing or an idea affects you. Talk to any recovering drug addict and they'll tell you that clarity of mind affected their emotional state.

Socialization is pattern recognition. That's all. Nothing special about that in general. However one must consider that people don't always act rational. Non-forced obedience to "authority" figures is not rational, and yet people consider it to be a matter of 'social grace' to surrender themselves for the sake of someone else's interests. Part of developing yourself is breaking off habits that are for the sake of 'social grace' and not of reason.

Something I like to say is that some rules are meant to be followed and some rules are mean to be broken.

I think you've been breathing in too much grass pollen OP.

 

[Cheeky_James]

Here’s something to consider about self improvement .
this how I see it

you are not who you think you are.
You are who others think you are.

example
A guy could go hardcore self improvement - after some time he may think hes become an awesome alpha male , funny, cool sexy guy (or whatever the goal of his SI efforts was) his new self image.

but.. if they consensus opinion of everyone else around him is that he is a delusional loner weirdo…
Then that’s what he is.

Cos that’s how the world works, unfortunately.

 

[Plinco]

you are not who you think you are.
You are who others think you are.

For argument sake, if each person was incapable of self-evaluation, why would you trust any of them to define you?

So are you saying that people are inherently delusional, to the point that each person cannot trust themselves to evaluate their own results? If I can bench press 205lbs, but other people say that I'm too skinny to bench that much weight, do I still go with defining myself based on what others think and forget that I could bench 205?

 

[Cheeky_James]

For argument sake, if each person was incapable of self-evaluation, why would you trust any of them to define you?

So are you saying that people are inherently delusional, to the point that each person cannot trust themselves to evaluate their own results? If I can bench press 205lbs, but other people say that I'm too skinny to bench that much weight, do I still go with defining myself based on what others think and forget that I could bench 205?

self improvement is kinda a flawed notion.
Because of personal bias.
How can you evaluate yourself and your improvement objectively- when you have massive personal bias Inbuilt to your own psychology.
You can set goals and tick them off sure.
But you cannot measure how much improvement has occurred objectively.. results I suppose are a measure , but personal bias still stands as to what the results mean.

 

[plumber]

For argument sake, if each person was incapable of self-evaluation, why would you trust any of them to define you?

So are you saying that people are inherently delusional, to the point that each person cannot trust themselves to evaluate their own results? If I can bench press 205lbs, but other people say that I'm too skinny to bench that much weight, do I still go with defining myself based on what others think and forget that I could bench 205?

sounds like an "entp" lense. facts always win vs truth.

 

[Plinco]

sounds like an "entp" lense. facts always win vs truth.

It has nothing to do with personality; facts don't care about your feelings. People will attack this saying that it's weird, or anti-social, or whatever. It's about taking responsibility for yourself, which with the right effort will lead you to become very attractive to other people, not superficially, but deeply.

For you newbies out there check this out. I don't endorse everything he says. Whenever he says "ego" he should say "perception" but overall this video is pretty useful.

self improvement is kinda a flawed notion.
Because of personal bias.
How can you evaluate yourself and your improvement objectively- when you have massive personal bias Inbuilt to your own psychology.
You can set goals and tick them off sure.
But you cannot measure how much improvement has occurred objectively.. results I suppose are a measure , but personal bias still stands as to what the results mean.

Focus on the facts, the more you do that the more you'll learn to trust yourself. The more effective you become, the less you'll be directed by other people.

 

[retardedautist2020]

No, what he has autism.

• Doesn’t like to be touched
• Struggles in social situations
• Inability to read the room
• Hyperfixated on what he wants, labeling it “independent-mindedness”
• Sequential thought structure that’s purely logical—primarily rooted in himself—and devoid of all other types of reason.

Yeah it could be. I’ve dealt with people with personality disorders that’s why I’ve been figuring out it’s what he has.

@Plinco tell us about your childhood and how your father would beat you. I’m 100% convinced because of how your coworker gave you a pat on the back and you were offended. This is also why you argue nonstop with all the bros on here. You don’t get along with men because of your abusive father.

 

[Jaxus]

Socialization is pattern recognition. That's all. Nothing special about that in general. However one must consider that people don't always act rational. Non-forced obedience to "authority" figures is not rational, and yet people consider it to be a matter of 'social grace' to surrender themselves for the sake of someone else's interests. Part of developing yourself is breaking off habits that are for the sake of 'social grace' and not of reason.

You are, yet again, making that very same “common misunderstanding.”

Cognitive intelligence that’s used to reason and engage in logic ≠ social intelligence to navigate people and social systems. For this reason alone, social skills are far more than merely pattern recognition.

Social grace & interpersonal eloquence are not nearly the same as “not rocking the boat”. The former allows you to do whatever you want with people and get away with it when others cannot, while the latter is closer to what you described. Take the occurrences you gave as an example: Another person could communicate to your manager not to be touched in the same way, and have it respected to where he actually gains social leverage over his manager. For you, however, a fight breaks out.

 

[BPH]

For you, however, a fight breaks out.

Hit the nail on the head...

OP talks about how he hoped certain posters would reply to his cold approach thread because he was "in the mood for a fight", argues with those who offer him advice - even when he specifically asks those people for it - and is frequently argumentative to the point where his threads get derailed or require a mod to lock them.

EDIT: I keep thinking about that time when he came home from the bar early, rather than stay out to meet women - because he supposedly wanted to go to sleep - but instead spent the next hour debating me about it, saying he enjoys these discussions...

@Plinco I genuinely think you would rather argue about whether you're making improvements than actually make those improvements.

 

[retardedautist2020]

I keep thinking about that time when he came home from the bar early, rather than stay out to meet women - because he supposedly wanted to go to sleep - but instead spent the next hour debating me about it, saying he enjoys these discussions...

I knew sooner or later he was going to do something to fish for our attention.

 

[Plinco]

OP talks about how he hoped certain posters would reply to his cold approach thread because he was "in the mood for a fight", argues with those who offer him advice - even when he specifically asks those people for it - and is frequently argumentative to the point where his threads get derailed or require a mod to lock them.

@BPH knows that I requested that thread to be locked.

I like debating. It’s not personal.

 

[Plinco]

sounds like an "entp" lense. facts always win vs truth.

Have you looked into socionics that I suggested?

Cognitive intelligence that’s used to reason and engage in logic ≠ social intelligence to navigate people and social systems. For this reason alone, social skills are far more than merely pattern recognition.

I would love to have a further discussion on that in another thread.

 

[retardedautist2020]

@BPHI like debating. It’s not personal.

You are full of sh*t, you are a liar. Now please tell me stories of your father beating you as a kid.

 

[The Duke]

Here’s something to consider about self improvement .
this how I see it

you are not who you think you are.
You are who others think you are.

depends on how self-aware you are. Some people know themselves very well, others really don't.

 

[Cheeky_James]

depends on how self-aware you are. Some people know themselves very well, others really don't.

? I need more context to understand this.
It seems like semantics and you are saying the same thing I am. Self awareness .= including being conscious of how you effect others ? So conscious of others opinions etc and the consensus opinion of the group, so same -same as what I stated.

what self improvement activities do you think are worth pursuing?
There’s a massive chunk of the pie of self improvement (books especially) that is total garbage.

Rereading OP from Plinco, I think he’s basically saying forums are a bit of a sh1t show . Which I’d tend to agree with tbh.

like, primarily there is no context coming with the source of the advice.

For forums to be truly useful if need to see the guys face and stats on his height, age, ethnicity and location next to each username, and his body count too. And also pics of the quality of women he gets.!

to interpret his reality and his advice , and if it’s applicable to me.

there’s not enough context to apply specific advice from other anonymous people , on these types of forums..

Generic advice self improvement advice ..I can find anywhere.

Plinco may have the problem of ND tho I’m gathering..

 

[Plinco]

? I need more context to understand this.
It seems like semantics and you are saying the same thing I am. Self awareness .= including being conscious of how you effect others ? So conscious of others opinions etc and the consensus opinion of the group, so same -same as what I stated.

what self improvement activities do you think are worth pursuing?
There’s a massive chunk of the pie of self improvement (books especially) that is total garbage.

Rereading OP from Plinco, I think he’s basically saying forums are a bit of a sh1t show . Which I’d tend to agree with tbh.

like, primarily there is no context coming with the source of the advice.

For forums to be truly useful if need to see the guys face and stats on his height, age, ethnicity and location next to each username, and his body count too. And also pics of the quality of women he gets.!

to interpret his reality and his advice , and if it’s applicable to me.

there’s not enough context to apply specific advice from other anonymous people , on these types of forums..

Generic advice self improvement advice ..I can find anywhere.

Plinco may have the problem of ND tho I’m gathering..

What's ND?

On self-awareness, you're correct to point out the self-deception is a big problem with the vast majority of people. The two things I can speak to that, are practicing honesty (especially self-honesty), and keeping records of what you do and reading back to yourself. You'll have to learn to trust yourself, as flawed as you might be. It's a matter of moving forward so you don't have to second guess yourself, it's not perfect but infinitely better than staying stagnant.