Frame vs being stubborn

[Pumax]

How would you guys compare the term "holding the frame" vs just "being stubborn" or "being obstinate"?

 

[Plinco]

How would you guys compare the term "holding the frame" vs just "being stubborn" or "being obstinate"?

Having a functional sense of reality along having emotional fortitude versus being emotionally clingy to set beliefs.

The key is rationality. In other words, observations and experience is the starting point, followed by conceptualization guided by logic and then formulated into principles. <-- the main components of rational thought and the mechanism of the improvement of one's relationship with reality.

 

[Pumax]

Its like people will say, "hold the frame", but most of the time that translate to take decision no matter the outcome.

So if she says "we need to go travel" and you say "no, there will be no travel this week I do have soccer match" and you hold that even if she get upset and then after she become sweet again and you have make up sex.

Is that holding the frame?
Or just being stubborn?

 

[Arete]

Its like people will say, "hold the frame", but most of the time that translate to take decision no matter the outcome.

So if she says "we need to go travel" and you say "no, there will be no travel this week I do have soccer match" and you hold that even if she get upset and then after she become sweet again and you have make up sex.

Is that holding the frame?
Or just being stubborn?

Do you know Pook? Here is a quote from him.

"A Man, Focuses on his dreams.
No, this does not include the chick. You must have passion for something in life, something you even want to do for the rest of your
life. Your romantic life is an echo of your regular life."

The world seems to be like a mirror as far as I can tell from my experience. It makes sense to me.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I would liken it to "learning to think and relate like a normal person" vs "being self-indulgently autistic"

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Having a functional sense of reality along having emotional fortitude versus being emotionally clingy to set beliefs.

The key is rationality. In other words, observations and experience is the starting point, followed by conceptualization guided by logic and then formulated into principles. <-- the main components of rational thought and the mechanism of the improvement of one's relationship with reality.

No, the key is discernment. Reading people and knowing when to soften your stance when needed.

 

[Plinco]

No, the key is discernment. Reading people and knowing when to soften your stance when needed.

I'm trying to figure out why you would say that. Frame is having a strong sense of context. A really simplified example would be to have complete confidence that 2+2=4, and having the emotional fortitude to express that confidently despite any pressure or pleasure that might divert you away from that conclusion.

Discernment is based on pattern recognition. So if you want to get to the essence on what 'frame' is, in the proper sense, is the emotional fortitude to hold the context of the integration of reality.

 

[Cheeky_James]

Holding the frame or controlling the frame basically means being Dominant. having a strong will and bending others to your will.

She may say “you’re so stubborn” or whatever.

just pick your battles , if it’s important to you and a core value= hold the frame.
If you go soccer every week and the travel is important to the relationship and you haven’t spent good time together lately then there’s no need I would think. Depends how important the soccer match is to you.

 

[Pumax]

You must have passion for something in life"

It makes sense.

There is a certain, contagious feeling, that you draw to others when you have something that influence you in that way.

It can be being passionate about your soccer club, or about cars, etc.

This is where most bluepilled man are if you think about it.
They are completely into this thing and their life is a reclection of their "childness" about this passion they have.

Its a contagious energy of joy to others.

How does that link with finding difference btw being stubborn or holding frame?

 

[Divorced w 3]

Holding frame can be practiced naturally and keep things moving forward on a positive, amicable basis. Being stubborn is when you demand adherence to a bunch of unreasonable expectations that are ultimately going to get thrown back in your face in an order of magnitude.

 

[Arete]

It makes sense.

There is a certain, contagious feeling, that you draw to others when you have something that influence you in that way.

It can be being passionate about your soccer club, or about cars, etc.

This is where most bluepilled man are if you think about it.
They are completely into this thing and their life is a reclection of their "childness" about this passion they have.

Its a contagious energy of joy to others.

How does that link with finding difference btw being stubborn or holding frame?

You got probably multiple times the experience I have. Im still a beginner currently. All I have is my intuition.

To me it seems like holding frame happens naturaly once you chase your dreams in an uncompromising way. I noticed myself getting the most attention at the time I had been the most busiest. Its kind of like "momentum". By going fast enough people seem to get "dragged along"

Pook does a better job explaining this:

"A Man, never feels he has to prove himself to anyone.
Flowers, candy, poetry all can be good additions to a relationship, but so many nice guys use them to buy the relationship as if
they must prove themselves. They flood with the poor woman with gifts to show they mean it.
So away with the flowers, those dead plants as tokens of affection. Away with the chocolate, the candy, and sweets, those sugary
pursuits to purchase love. Away with the poetry, those rotten verses of declarations of love. Away with the quest to prove yourself
and let her prove herself to you for you are the Don Juan.
Be a Man! And with it, you will advance in your career, your social life, and even your dealings with women. Men are very rare
these days so if you become one, you will be in HIGH demand. Your career will become better as people look at you as a leader.
Life will re-develop before your eyes for you will obtain the most single quality that men, not trophy husbands, not nice guys, not
tactful players, but men have a monopoly on: Respect.
YOU are the MAN! For if you don't STAND for something, you shall FALL for everything!"

"A Man, Knows where he is going in Life.
True seduction isn't calculation or painful discipline, it is the same as with everything that makes a success: A Passion for Life."

 

[jhonny9546]

Holding frame can be practiced naturally and keep things moving forward on a positive, amicable basis. Being stubborn is when you demand adherence to a bunch of unreasonable expectations that are ultimately going to get thrown back in your face in an order of magnitude.

I want to second this. We can also do some examples to make it easier:

1) Your ex asks to change the child exchange time at the last minute.
Amicable: You: “I understand you need to change the time. I can accommodate it today, but please give me more notice next time so we can plan properly.” (also non violent comunication).
Stubborn: “Oh well now it's late, you better let me know that before. That is your issue.”
2) Your GF wants to change the weekend schedule.
Amicable: “That weekend doesn't work for me, but I'm happy to look at another weekend that suits us both.”
Stubborn: “Absolutely not. The schedule says 5 p.m., and I will never change it, I've my own routine. You agreed to the schedule, and that's your problem."

So, if I compare this to my IRL experience, amicable is perceived as weak, and is therefore overlooked, whereas stubborn behavior is seen as intimidating, and thus gets respected.
I have observed this dynamic in LTRs and marriages.
In short, a person might start amicable, but if their partner doesn't go along with them, they may shift to stubborn mode, and, at that point, they finally get heard.

In my view, however, once you have clearly explained your position in amicable manner, you should stand firm in your decision, without raising your voice or trying to force your will, because, in reality, you have already asserted your position, so now it's rather that person showing you respect by listening to what you said.

One way or another, she will resist, disagree, or become sulky.
Do all women act this way? From what I've learnt in my and friends relationships, yes, expecially behind closed doors, when there is no social setting, and no mask to wear.

 

[Tilex]

If a girl likes you, then she makes it really easy for you to stay in your frame.
You plan a date, pick a location, she shows up on time, no unexpected surprises, no unexpected cancellations. She's there for you.

Women from online dating are very crafty at stealing your frame on a 1st date. The way it's conveyed will sound very minor, extremely petty, or too insignificant.

Examples:

"Mind if I say hello to a friend whom is a DJ/Bartender/Owner/Chef/Bouncer/Manager at club nearby before we meet up?"

- Texting every 30 minutes that they're still running late.

- Showing up at the venue with an unannounced friend.

- Requesting to change venue's for the date because she knows someone that works there.

- Asking her out for drinks, but she orders Filet Mignon.

- Talking on her phone in front of you for a lengthy period of time on 1st date.

- Picking her up from home and she makes you wait an extra 30 minutes for her to get ready, but she claims it'll only be 5 min.

-Not giving you the full experience of a 1st date, but instead wants to meet up for a few minutes at a 7-11 parking lot.

 

[Pumax]

If a girl likes you, then she makes it really easy for you to stay in your frame.
You plan a date, pick a location, she shows up on time, no unexpected surprises, no unexpected cancellations. She's there for you.

Women from online dating are very crafty at stealing your frame on a 1st date. The way it's conveyed will sound very minor, extremely petty, or too insignificant.

Examples:

"Mind if I say hello to a friend whom is a DJ/Bartender/Owner/Chef/Bouncer/Manager at club nearby before we meet up?"

- Texting every 30 minutes that they're still running late.

- Showing up at the venue with an unannounced friend.

- Requesting to change venue's for the date because she knows someone that works there.

- Asking her out for drinks, but she orders Filet Mignon.

- Talking on her phone in front of you for a lengthy period of time on 1st date.

- Picking her up from home and she makes you wait an extra 30 minutes for her to get ready, but she claims it'll only be 5 min.

-Not giving you the full experience of a 1st date, but instead wants to meet up for a few minutes at a 7-11 parking lot.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Yes, she would make it terrible easy for you and you just have to keep date her until you confirm its not lovebombing. Then you know she wasnt playing.

It would be awesome if you could do some example about frame , but for the relationship realm