Thoughts on "early" drink dates?

[BPH]

it’s not. I told you

believe me i’ve been there. it’s frustrating as fvck. but it don’t go to do with interest.

that don’t got nothing to do with this girl. i mentioned in my response to solomon that i have chicks that won’t show up to my place until 2am. that don’t mean these girls are more high interest than a girl who thinks past 10pm is late. now AFTER you’ve fvcked them (especially a couple times) is when you’ll see more flexibility and will be able to get them out at times you weren’t beforehand. got to get that first one in tho.

I agree with you generally, but in this case, I felt there was a lack of interest, and I was right.

Yes, she was interested enough to match with me multiple times until we could go on a date. That's a positive.

No, she wouldn't stay out past her pre-established curfew, and also wouldn't kiss on the first date. That's a negative.

I think that is a greater negative than the positive.

I hate using celebrity examples because I don't expect to get treated the same as some famous millionaire, but if Henry Cavill asked her out and could only do it at 10PM, she wouldn't have declined because of some yoga class in the morning. She also wouldn't have rejected a kiss from him if he went for it - as a matter of fact, I'd expect her to push harder for the lay than he would.

If she wanted to, she would, which boils down to interest. This girl wasn't interested enough; I felt that, but went along with it anyway. My intuition was correct.

 

[Velasco]

So yeah just continue doing what has worked for YOU. Maintain your frame as you guys call it. 10:00 pm, she knows what's up and will either agree or not.

If not you just saved yourself time, effort and money. Her as well!

that’s restricting ur options to only those willing to meet a guy they just met at 10pm. the underlying frame in their heads is this guy views u as a late night hookup. so there’s too much friction to agree to that. and why the best time is 7pm. because they can tell their hamster in their brain that they’re just going to get drinks/food with this guy” and then when they end up sleeping w you after that “it just happened”

I'm not saying the blame is on her for ghosting me. I'm saying that part in particular is ironic, because she was complaining to me about guys having ghosted her after what she thought was a good date, and said she prefers open and honest communication, and will tell someone if she doesn't think there's a connection.

The fact that she isn't capable of doing the very thing she claims to dislike about others probably plays a role in why she's still single. If she doesn't like me, she could've told me, and I'd make other plans, simple as that

brother your going to continue getting frustrated if you keep treating women the same as men. ofc she ain’t gonna do all that sh1t lolll

 

[Velasco]

No, she wouldn't stay out past her pre-established curfew, and also wouldn't kiss on the first date. That's a negative.

that’s not a negative. that’s her doing exactly what she told you what she was going to do. because you weren’t able to manipulate her to ignore what she already told you, does not mean she’s not interested in you. and the no kiss rule is very likely a rule she gave herself to protect herself from all the other times she did makeout with someone she was attracted to, that ended up hurting her (she did say she did engage in casual sex when she was younger quite a bit) she’s just trying to learn from her mistakes. again doesn’t mean she’s not interested in you. “oh yeah but all these girls made out with me no problem! so those girls were actually high interest!” no bro.

 

[BPH]

that’s restricting ur options to only those willing to meet a guy they just met at 10pm.

It's not about 10PM. It's about being agreeable, following the man's lead, and being open to the possibility we end the night together. I've done it so many times. Sometimes it's 9PM. Sometimes it IS 8PM. The point is she had a cutoff after 2 hours, so she was trying to squeeze me in - which is precisely what I was trying to avoid by scheduling the date for Saturday night, when she wouldn't have work before, after, or the next morning.

so there’s too much friction to agree to that.

There's too much friction FOR HER. There have been plenty of others where it wasn't too much. I picked up on that, and should've adjusted accordingly.

brother your going to continue getting frustrated if you keep treating women the same as men.

I'm not frustrated at all with her. I saw the writing on the wall and made the mistake anyway because I thought I might be acting unreasonably, or too rigidly. I'm frustrated because I knew better.

again doesn’t mean she’s not interested in you.

The ghosting over the past 2 days would imply that.

The date went as well as it could've gone within the constraints she had in place. She thanked me for the night and told me she had a good time.

I am not judging her lack of interest based on what she SAID. I'm basing it on what actually HAPPENED here.

As I said, I knew better, but went anyway. I'll think back to this the next time I have doubts about whether I'd be wasting my time - I kinda already did when it came to the girl who invited me out Wednesday night.

 

[Sega Genesis]

the underlying frame in their heads is this guy views u as a late night hookup.

^^Yeah ok which is what many women on these apps want too... so what's the problem?

I just posted about my gf who is one of these women. Again she's told me she knows prior to even meeting a man whether or not she wants or is open to hooking up with him..

The time of meeting is irrelevant. She is a busy attorney and often times can't meet until after 9:00 pm anyway.

It did take me awhile to wrap my brain around this because it's happened to me a few times and I did feel badly (my issue).... but imo a woman who is solid within herself is NOT gonna feel.like a wh0re or a hoe because a man asked directly or more subtly if she wants or is open to hooking up.

Again in many cases it's what she wants too!

Just look at BPH's history and how many ONS he has had often times initiated by the woman!

The notion of plausible deniability is real albeit a bit delusional. I think @tksniper mentioned this but people are having sex every six seconds and women are wanting it too just as much and as often as men.

So why not everyone be real about it and not hide behind things like plausible deniability and pretending you want to "date" when what you really want is to hook up?

 

[Velasco]

The point is she had a cutoff after 2 hours, so she was trying to squeeze me in -

yeah bro as soon as i read she’s in bed by 10pm. it triggered me ab that chick i told u would already be fallen asleep every time id try to arrange a meetup after i left work at 10pm. so i would pull the offer back (the way i suggested) and then arrange a meetup at an optimal time frame.

i told u not to go but there were too many people telling u to go anyway bc hey you never know. when actually you did already know lol.

There's too much friction FOR HER. There have been plenty of others where it wasn't too much. I picked up on that, and should've adjusted accordingly

correct. can’t be fitting girls into one box. if she does this it means she’s interested. if she does this it means she’s not interested. i’ve been wrong so many times ab what i assumed was interested and assumed meant she wasn’t interested. that ive forced myself to keep an open mind. and reject this black and white thinking ab interest.

I'll think back to this the next time I have doubts about whether I'd be wasting my time

good. then again i’ve laid girls that ghosted me 4+ times before we eventually meet and banged lol. ignorance is bliss.

try and hit this chick up next week with a “?” kids these days give up way too soon

 

[BPH]

yeah bro as soon as i read she’s in bed by 10pm. it triggered me ab that chick i told u would already be fallen asleep every time id try to arrange a meetup after i left work at 10pm. so i would pull the offer back (the way i suggested) and then arrange a meetup at an optimal time frame.

i told u not to go but there were too many people telling u to go anyway bc hey you never know. when actually you did already know lol.

correct. can’t be fitting girls into one box. if she does this it means she’s interested. if she does this it means she’s not interested. i’ve been wrong so many times ab what i assumed was interested and assumed meant she wasn’t interested. that ive forced myself to keep an open mind. and reject this black and white thinking ab interest.

good. then again i’ve laid girls that ghosted me 4+ times before we eventually meet and banged lol. ignorance is bliss.

try and hit this chick up next week with a “?” kids these days give up way too soon

I agree with pretty much everything you said here.

I saw your reply about moving the time after the fact, because at that point I was already near the end of that date.

I don't have to burn the bridge; she's just gonna be on the back burner while I continue pursuing the girl from Monday, and potentially this other girl tomorrow.

 

[Velasco]

^^Yeah ok which is what many women on these apps want too... so what's the problem?

i’m not on apps i wouldn’t know

She is a busy attorney and often times can't meet until after 9:00 pm anyway.

yes that’s her. similar to my old schedule where i couldn’t get out of work until 10pm. it created a lot of friction with girls i’d meet asking them to meet me at 10pm because of the underlying frame. even tho it’s just the soonest time i could meet them. girls don’t have that issues bc guys don’t have anti slut defenses with meeting a chick past 9pm. they’d in fact be more eager to bc they see green lights to hookup.

Just look at BPH's history and how many ONS he has had often times initiated by the woman!

i know his history. which is why i know im the few guys he’ll listen to because everything he’s going thru, i already went thru years ago. still learning tho.

So why not everyone be real about it and not hide behind things.like plausible deniability and pretending you want to "date" when what you really want is to hook up?

one of the first player guys i became friends with in the community told me about this girl that would not hookup with anybody she was not in love with. now he had zero intentions of ever dating this girl. he just wanted to smash and then move on to another girl. why not be real with her and tell her he only wanted to hookup with her? what’d she’d say? no sorry i “blah blah blah love”. what did he do? he lied and told her he was in love with her. and then she slept with him. then he ghosted her. most girls (even tho there are some 100% ok with being a side hoe). do not want to be seen as a hookup/sneaky link. they want the girlfriend experience. they want to feel like they’re the only one that gets your love and appreciation. the “date” functions as a frame where they feel it’s heading in that direction. and therefore allow themselves to relax. and become susceptible to hooking up. only because in their minds, this guy doesn’t view them as just another hookup.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I'm a woman @Velasco and quite familiar with how many women think and feel about a man being sexually direct and everything else. I have encountered it many times myself and as I said I did feel badly at first until I learned to appreciate (and actually respect) his directness as it saved ME time and effort and possibly becoming emotionally attached to a man who didn't want what I wanted and vice versa.

I am 100% against how your player friend handled things with that woman. It was manipulative and deceptive but hey he got what HE wanted, f*ck how SHE must've felt afterwards being pumped and dumped after getting the "girlfriend experience" for two minutes.

Whatever. To each their own.

I am not on the apps either, I am very happily in a relationship however I am observant of what is happening on the apps and off and how many women not only enjoy but will initiate casual sex, hook ups and ONS.

That's where I'm coming from here, what I have observed and what my friend who IS on the apps has shared with me as well.

 

[Plinco]

lol OP this thread is four pages long and you don't have clarity yet!!!!

 

[BillyPilgrim]

yeah bro as soon as i read she’s in bed by 10pm. it triggered me ab that chick i told u would already be fallen asleep every time id try to arrange a meetup after i left work at 10pm. so i would pull the offer back (the way i suggested) and then arrange a meetup at an optimal time frame.

i told u not to go but there were too many people telling u to go anyway bc hey you never know. when actually you did already know lol.

correct. can’t be fitting girls into one box. if she does this it means she’s interested. if she does this it means she’s not interested. i’ve been wrong so many times ab what i assumed was interested and assumed meant she wasn’t interested. that ive forced myself to keep an open mind. and reject this black and white thinking ab interest.

good. then again i’ve laid girls that ghosted me 4+ times before we eventually meet and banged lol. ignorance is bliss.

try and hit this chick up next week with a “?” kids these days give up way too soon

Imo there are 2 aspects to interest: 1) how interested she is in dating in general, and 2) how interested she is in you in particular. How interested she is in you in particular functions inside the framework of how interested she is in dating in general. Imo #2 is generally a stronger force than #1, and a source of confusion for guys, especially when women hide how jaded or disinterested they are in dating in general to begin with.

With a chick who is into guys and dating and lukewarm towards you, you still have a good shot with good game. A chick who is jaded and insecure but is still into you is usually a headache.

 

[BeExcellent]

There are three other things to consider:

1. After the first date, did @BPH make any effort to text, call, or say hello after the initial Saturday night date a week ago? Nothing til today? That is an error along the lines of showing little interest.

2. Did she rethink her impression of OP given 1.) above? Quite possible. This ain't the 1980s before cell service & social media when you often had to wait nearly a week for a phone call from a guy you like.....OP is the man & if he did not initiate that is on him, leading to.....

3. She got cold feet because of his failure to contact her (initiate), and made other plans or no plans.

Good women ALWAYS have options. Why chose a lukewarm/failure to reach out dude when other men want to take you out?

Or maybe she had a bad day.

Nobody knows really.

 

[BPH]

There are three other things to consider:

1. After the first date, did @BPH make any effort to text, call, or say hello after the initial Saturday night date a week ago? Nothing til today? That is an error along the lines of showing little interest.

2. Did she rethink her impression of OP given 1.) above? Quite possible. This ain't the 1980s before cell service & social media when you often had to wait nearly a week for a phone call from a guy you like.....OP is the man & if he did not initiate that is on him, leading to.....

3. She got cold feet because of his failure to contact her (initiate), and made other plans or no plans.

Good women ALWAYS have options. Why chose a lukewarm/failure to reach out dude when other men want to take you out?

Or maybe she had a bad day.

Nobody knows really.

For what it's worth, I did text her the day after, assuring her I had a good time as well, and jokingly told her that I wanted to make sure she knew I wasn't ghosting her.

She laughed and thanked me for letting her know. That conversation was short, and she stopped responding, so I stopped responding.

I figured there was no need to force that conversation to keep going, since I would be texting her in 3 days to plan for Thursday night, plus she was still watching my Instagram stories.

I didn't include those details because I didn't think they were particularly important, considering the outcome - which was that she ghosted me the past 2 days and either uninstalled or unmatched me on Tinder.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

For what it's worth, I did text her the day after, assuring her I had a good time as well, and jokingly told her that I wanted to make sure she knew I wasn't ghosting her.

She laughed and thanked me for letting her know. That conversation was short, and she stopped responding, so I stopped responding.

I figured there was no need to force that conversation to keep going, since I would be texting her in 3 days to plan for Thursday night, plus she was still watching my Instagram stories.

I didn't include those details because I didn't think they were particularly important, considering the outcome - which was that she ghosted me the past 2 days and either uninstalled or unmatched me on Tinder.

I told you not to post the insta stories of you hunting city slickers in the Pine Barrens, Bryce.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Alright, this sh** happened almost a full week ago and 90% of the advice came after the date, so let's put a ribbon on this thing and be done...

First of all, I was right.

@Sega Genesis I texted her yesterday to see if she would still be free tonight, and also texted her today. No response to either of those. I assume I'm simply being ghosted, which is ironic, considering this woman complained about being ghosted by dates she thought went well, and said that she prefers open communication and honesty.

@Velasco @BeExcellent and @Glassguy made good points about being less rigid and more flexible. I also agree with @The Duke that if she's having a good enough time, she'll make adjustments to her plans. Essentially, it's all about whether her interest is high enough.

If she were interested enough, she wouldn't have told me about this deadline, would've been agreeable to the time, and would've only brought up that cutoff time if she weren't having a good time. And that's before we even deal with the "I don't kiss on a first date" rule. To those who say my timing is too late, I've done this many, many, many times successfully. The lawyer girl back in May shared an apartment with her ex, and even though he would only be out until 3AM or so, she was agreeable to meeting up at 10:30PM the night after I met her. Or the girl from Hinge last month who ended up getting sick in the bed - that date was at 9:30PM.

It's not about the time. It is me screening for whether she's interested enough to be agreeable and open to the possibility of ending up together if the date goes well, which this girl was not. I should've trusted my instinct and made other plans.

The date itself went as well as it could've gone. She was on-time, I picked a good spot, I treated her to drinks and some nachos, got to know her, she got to know me, plenty of laughing and having a good time. Touching wasn't awkward; she stayed the entire duration until her parking meter was about to expire. I walked her to the car, hugged her goodbye, wasn't pushy about the no-kiss rule, and texted her later to make sure she made it home safely. There's not much room for improvement when being physical is completely off the table.

Since then, I went on a date with a girl Monday night at 11PM, which went very well. She has a "no sex on the first date" rule, but definitely not a "no kissing" rule. She was initially going to reschedule for next week because she's very busy and was feeling tired, but after texting back-and-forth with a few audio messages, she was much more tempted to meet me and changed her mind. We have plans for next Monday, and she even wants to see me Saturday now too.

Notice the difference in interest level? Whatever reasons that first girl has for the way she thinks about me, or is choosing to behave, I can't control. Perhaps that's why she's been on the dating apps for so long and is still single.

There was another girl who invited me up to Philly last night, but this time I DID trust my instincts, and felt the interest wasn't there, and decided to stay in and not waste my time.

So TL;DR I was right; many of you made good points, but at the end of the day, my intuition was correct, so the next time I have doubts, I'll just trust my gut.

EDIT: Also want to mention @BillyPilgrim because I'm used to you providing mostly sarcastic advice, but the reply you left on this page was actually pretty golden, and I'm surprised more people don't appreciate how spot-on that is.

This is why, in my original post, I brought up the Boston Celtics cheerleader and the Arizona date.

With the Celtics cheerleader, she was skeptical beforehand and told you she had a curfew, but you were able to persuade her to loosen up and stay out later. With the Arizona girl, she also told you beforehand that she had multiple obligations, mentioned a curfew, and came across as fairly rigid. That date ultimately ended up being one-and-done. There are more examples in your LRs, but these are the two I remember best.

So basically, you have a process that clearly works for the type of women you're targeting, and trying to force yourself to deviate from it probably isn't productive. At the same time, it's also not a one-size-fits-all approach.

If you're up for the challenge and want to expand your skill set by having success with types of women you haven't been successful with before, you'll probably have to experiment with approaches you normally wouldn't use. Start with what @Velasco suggested. If not, then stick with what has consistently worked for you and accept that some women simply won't fit your process.

 

[BeExcellent]

For what it's worth, I did text her the day after, assuring her I had a good time as well, and jokingly told her that I wanted to make sure she knew I wasn't ghosting her.

She laughed and thanked me for letting her know. That conversation was short, and she stopped responding, so I stopped responding.

I figured there was no need to force that conversation to keep going, since I would be texting her in 3 days to plan for Thursday night, plus she was still watching my Instagram stories.

I didn't include those details because I didn't think they were particularly important, considering the outcome - which was that she ghosted me the past 2 days and either uninstalled or unmatched me on Tinder.

Ok. Then who knows why. Sometimes there is not a known explaination....

 

[BPH]

So basically, you have a process that clearly works for the type of women you're targeting, and trying to force yourself to deviate from it probably isn't productive. At the same time, it's also not a one-size-fits-all approach.

I had to think back for a moment who the Celtics cheerleader was, because she's a Celtics cheerleader NOW, but not when I met and hooked up with her.

Anyway, yes, you're right. The way I operate doesn't work well with women who are specifically looking for long-term relationships. They don't HAVE to be looking for short-term flings, but if they're looking for something serious, they're much more reserved and take things way slower than what I'm looking for.

The cheerleader worked because she was graduating that year, so the short-term fling was the only reasonable option, and I screened her by being rigid with the time, fully expecting her not to submit to that, so I was pleasantly surprised when she did.

The Arizona girl was very interested over text, but when she realized I was just visiting, I think that turned her off completely.

 

[viking22]

I don't think it is necessarily lack of interest. More likely lack of compatibility.

Young women with low self-esteem will get physical with a guy much earlier than they're comfortable doing so because they don't want to lose them or aren't good at setting boundaries and saying no. Other women are just dating for attention and fun and have no qualms hooking up early on with a guy they are attracted to.

This girl is clearly dating intentionally and wants a guy to invest time and effort and money before she is willing to get physical. She also probably expects a guy to be persistent and chase her so your half hearted follow up probably put her off.

No point getting frustrated at the outcome of a first date. The trick is to keep the expense low and if it is clearly going nowhere cut your losses. Seems you've done both so just write it off to experience.