Thinking you'll probably get rejected vs thinking you'll definitely get rejected

[SW15]

If so, the therapy you're receiving now (the therapist assuming you're autistic) would be ineffective.

Get rechecked is my advice, couldn't hurt.

It is likely that a 2025 re-examination of potential autism will show that he is still on the autism spectrum.

Much of what he has described in various forum posts is consistent with autism.

I think that having an updated test is worthwhile, since it has been 20+ years. Some crucial years in life stage development have passed since the last test, including adolescence and young adulthood.

- get your T and E checked.

A testosterone level check is also a good idea for men 30+.

 

[BeExcellent]

I don't doubt the autism. And to be clear, OP, you are correct that I did have some hesitation about the age gap.....but I continued to accept dates and continued to get to know him over time. He had to adjust to me having children (who came to live full time with me about 4 months into our relationship)...so we both had adjustments to make to accomodate the other person. You see, relationships are not black & white, cut & dry. They are messy. You deal with whatever "stuff" the other person brings; whatever expectations the other person has.

Two weeks after meeting my husband we were at dinner. He is acting fidgety and off. I asked what was wrong....

He says "I don't like that you have kids and I don't like that you travel for work......"

I said "Ok. Then I'm not the girl for you....." and I calmly got up to leave the restaurant & started walking to the door.

You see I'm not going to suddenly become childless, and the requirements of my job or how I support myself are not going to change either....these are structural components of my life that cannot be altered. They must be accepted.

He jumped up & followed me to the door and begged me not to leave. I explained how I cannot change these things & if he cannot accept them then its better to break things off now.....

He told me he would adjust. And he has.

Just as I have accepted and adapted to his condition and the quirks that brings.

Relationships are not algebra and there is no perfect embodiment of a fantasy partner designed by your mind in real life.

Relationships happen in the real world and involve real people, who are imperfect.

And that actually should be good news, because nobody here is perfect either.

 

[SW15]

Two weeks after meeting my husband we were at dinner. He is acting fidgety and off. I asked what was wrong....

He says "I don't like that you have kids and I don't like that you travel for work......"

I said "Ok. Then I'm not the girl for you....." and I calmly got up to leave the restaurant & started walking to the door.

You see I'm not going to suddenly become childless, and the requirements of my job or how I support myself are not going to change either....these are structural components of my life that cannot be altered. They must be accepted.

He jumped up & followed me to the door and begged me not to leave. I explained how I cannot change these things & if he cannot accept them then its better to break things off now.....

Women with kids are a dealbreaker for me for an extended relationship. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for short term sex, but a woman with children under 18 isn't going to be a top prospect in that situation. Even for short term sex, I would prioritize a childless woman. She would be a lower tier prospect for me.

I have made it into my early 40s avoiding interactions with women with kids for the most part. I'm impressed at how well I've done with that compared to a typical 30+ guy. I think it helps that I'm a part of the Millennial generation and Millennial childlessness is more common than Gen X childlessness. I don't think a 40 year Gen X guy in 2012 would have been able to avoid childless women during the 2002-2012 time period as well as I have since I turned 30.

It is unlikely that I would have gotten 2 weeks into an interaction with a woman with children under 18 living at home.

Going back to your situation, his fidgeting and directness feels like an interaction with someone autistic.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Relationships happen in the real world and involve real people, who are imperfect

Yep... When a slinky gal like this

reveals that contract murder is what keeps her traveling for work, a fella has to decide how seriously he takes Commandment #6

Conversely, when a handsome, charming man discloses that his tastes in B-SM extend beyond dishing out the occasional spanking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Wilder , a woman has to decide whether or not she's game for DIY Electro Convulsive Therapy

 

[GoodMan32]

Big screen TVs were common in 2003. In 2003, households with bigger TV sets were more likely to have tube TV sets and not flat screens yet.

The relevant detail is that you were not watching a lot of TV from 1998-2003.

In 2003, it was possible to be overly dependent on tech. However, you were only 12 in 2003. More and more households were starting to get higher speed internet at home around 1998-2003, moving from dial up internet to a faster, broadband connection.

Perhaps you weren't on the internet much in those years. There was a decent internet culture in the early 2000s.

In 2003, you could have been poorly socialized without too much TV or internet time.



It could be worth doing some updated testing to see what's changed since 2003. He will likely test positive in 2025 for autism based on 2025 testing methods too.

Yeah, I guess my young age was the main explanation for why I didn't spend much time online in 2003. I was just beginning to even be allowed to be online unsupervised around that age.

I played some computer games (so did my brother). We largely spent our summers/weekends with the neighborhood kids, however.

My family got a big flat screen toward the end of 2004. Before that, we had a tube (maybe 27 inches or so if I had to guess). Rather than getting caught up in the semantics, I guess the crucial point here is the fact I didn't watch a whole lot of TV at that point (which isn't to say I watched zero TV)

Anyway, being born in 83, you probably had a childhood where kids actually went outside. My younger brother (born in 94) and I were perhaps the last cohort where that trend (of kids going outside) still existed.

The main takeaway here is: My description of my elementary school/early middle school years certainly doesn't sound like a kid who was poorly socialized.

@GoodMan32 I strongly urge you to be reevaluated by a different doctor.

I don't know what criteria he/she used to diagnose you but doctors make mistakes.

I have been misdiagnosed twice (not autism but another mental disorder), the first time the result was being prescribed the wrong meds which nearly killed me!

My point is you were diagnosed 22 years ago when you were 12 or 13 years old when it's quite normal to have social and other issues, and as such it's possible you may have been misdiagnosed.

If so, the therapy you're receiving now (the therapist assuming you're autistic) would be ineffective.

Get rechecked is my advice, couldn't hurt.

oood.luck.

You're right, a lot of 12 year olds have struggles.

The fact I went on to misread cues from girls when I was in high school and college (and in more recent times, misread cues from my next door neighbor as well as a woman who works in my office building), however, would suggest the stuff I was dealing with in 2003 went beyond simply being normal pre-teen struggles.

While it is worth looking into getting reevaluated, autism is the only explanation I can think of to make sense of why I have a track record of misreading a woman's clues of interest. Yeah, I know neurotypical men will misread the occasional cue from a woman. What stands out with me though is the fact I misread a woman's clues nearly 100% of the time.

It's a meme:

Gymcel

A gymcel is an incel who works out, believing that a muscular body will compensate for an unattractive face. Gymcels will often spend countless hours in the gym...

incels.wiki

Yep, I work with a gymcel (and the internet is full of gymcels)

 

[GoodMan32]

It is likely that a 2025 re-examination of potential autism will show that he is still on the autism spectrum.

Much of what he has described in various forum posts is consistent with autism.

I think that having an updated test is worthwhile, since it has been 20+ years. Some crucial years in life stage development have passed since the last test, including adolescence and young adulthood.



A testosterone level check is also a good idea for men 30+.

Thanks for being a voice of reason. You're right, much of what I've posted about is consistent with autism.

 

[GoodMan32]

Oh yeah, and there's yet another recent example of misreading a woman I thought was into me's cue.

This one works right in my workplace. I've posted about her before (the one I suspect is an autist).

I asked strategic questions to gather information on whether she's over her ex yet. Turns out she's not (in other words, I have no chance with her)

I've become extremely good at (without coming out and shooting my shot) getting a woman to reveal I don't have a chance with her. If only I were this good at getting a woman to reveal I do have a chance with her.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Thanks for being a voice of reason

I don't suppose you and your current shrink have discussed Selective Abstraction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_abstraction

From the beginning of your tenure here at SS, most respondents have emphasized that whatever diagnosis we receive is less of an obstacle than our choosing to make that diagnosis our entire identity. Yet, you've latched onto the SINGLE reply that re-inforces your pre-existing worldview

This is tantamount to a jihadi who tunes out the words of John Esposito, Mustafa Akyol, Ibn Khaldun, Shadi Hamid, etc etc, in favor of mistaking Al-Shabaab's monthly newsletter for Holy Writ


"I've become extremely good at (without coming out and shooting my shot) getting a woman to reveal I don't have a chance with her"

That's the nature of self-fulfilling prophecy, hombre... When a fella possesses a iron conviction that he'll be reviled by most women, he inevitably behaves in ways that increase his chances of being written off as a creep and weirdo

 

[Mike32ct]

I've become extremely good at (without coming out and shooting my shot) getting a woman to reveal I don't have a chance with her. If only I were this good at getting a woman to reveal I do have a chance with her.

She’s only going to make it obvious if she’s VERY attracted.

If she’s moderately attracted and you have a chance, you will likely never know about it or be sure about it. Some attracted women will unfortunately fall through the cracks.

 

[SW15]

The main takeaway here is: My description of my elementary school/early middle school years certainly doesn't sound like a kid who was poorly socialized.

That's not true. There are and there were plenty of social disorders not related to spending too much time in front of electronic screens.

There's a good chance that the school psychologists and other administrators in your K-8 schools were aware of you having social problems on school grounds. You were likely teased and bullied during recess during those years. Teachers and administrators often become aware of these issues.

Anyway, being born in 83, you probably had a childhood where kids actually went outside. My younger brother (born in 94) and I were perhaps the last cohort where that trend (of kids going outside) still existed.

Early Millennials (1981-1985 births) often went outside to play if they lived in safer, middle class +. A Black child in 1990s South Los Angeles might not have been allowed to spend as much time outside due to gun shots in the neighborhood.

In general, I would say that 1980s born children who had their key formative years in the 1990s had a more analog childhood. In the 1990s, there were video gaming systems and computer games. Cable/satellite TV was gaining popularity then as well. There were some distracting screens, but the internet and cellular phones had very limited impact during most of the 1990s. During the 1990s, most internet households had slow dial up internet. Broadband, higher speed internet was only starting to become more of a thing near the end of the 1990s.

The late 1990s was a different tech environment. The 2000-2005 tech environment resembles today more closely.

She’s only going to make it obvious if she’s VERY attracted.

If she’s moderately attracted and you have a chance, you will likely never know about it or be sure about it. Some attracted women will unfortunately fall through the cracks.

Most women communicate indirectly and subtly. Female signs of interests are sometimes so subtle that a lot of males don't pick up on those signs. It's possible for some attracted females to fall through the cracks. I'm not aware of that happening to me in high school or any point after that. I've never had a situation where years later I heard that some woman was interested in me.

 

[GoodMan32]

I don't suppose you and your current shrink have discussed Selective Abstraction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_abstraction

From the beginning of your tenure here at SS, most respondents have emphasized that whatever diagnosis we receive is less of an obstacle than our choosing to make that diagnosis our entire identity. Yet, you've latched onto the SINGLE reply that re-inforces your pre-existing worldview

This is tantamount to a jihadi who tunes out the words of John Esposito, Mustafa Akyol, Ibn Khaldun, Shadi Hamid, etc etc, in favor of mistaking Al-Shabaab's monthly newsletter for Holy Writ


"I've become extremely good at (without coming out and shooting my shot) getting a woman to reveal I don't have a chance with her"

That's the nature of self-fulfilling prophecy, hombre... When a fella possesses a iron conviction that he'll be reviled by most women, he inevitably behaves in ways that increase his chances of being written off as a creep and weirdo

Chicken and the egg. I have a conviction that the opposite sex will view me as a creep because that's how I was viewed in high school. Speaking of which, even though I had already gotten my diagnosis by the time I was in high school, I hadn't developed the hypothesis yet that my autism would hold me back with girls.

It wasn't until I was 20-21 that I finally developed the hypothesis "Maybe autism is the reason for my struggle."

I don't doubt the autism. And to be clear, OP, you are correct that I did have some hesitation about the age gap.....but I continued to accept dates and continued to get to know him over time. He had to adjust to me having children (who came to live full time with me about 4 months into our relationship)...so we both had adjustments to make to accomodate the other person. You see, relationships are not black & white, cut & dry. They are messy. You deal with whatever "stuff" the other person brings; whatever expectations the other person has.

Two weeks after meeting my husband we were at dinner. He is acting fidgety and off. I asked what was wrong....

He says "I don't like that you have kids and I don't like that you travel for work......"

I said "Ok. Then I'm not the girl for you....." and I calmly got up to leave the restaurant & started walking to the door.

You see I'm not going to suddenly become childless, and the requirements of my job or how I support myself are not going to change either....these are structural components of my life that cannot be altered. They must be accepted.

He jumped up & followed me to the door and begged me not to leave. I explained how I cannot change these things & if he cannot accept them then its better to break things off now.....

He told me he would adjust. And he has.

Just as I have accepted and adapted to his condition and the quirks that brings.

Relationships are not algebra and there is no perfect embodiment of a fantasy partner designed by your mind in real life.

Relationships happen in the real world and involve real people, who are imperfect.

And that actually should be good news, because nobody here is perfect either.

I meant to ask (and since you didn't meet your husband until he was 45, you might not know the answer): When he was in high school, do you happen to know if your husband's autism caused his social/emotional age to be significantly younger than his actual age?

Even though I was in the top 10% academically, my autism caused my social/emotional age to be 6 years younger than my actual age when I was in high school.

The social/emotional immaturity was likely the biggest reason of why I (despite the fact my looks were bordering on 8/10 at the time) was viewed as a leper by girls at my school. No high school girl wants to date a 9 year old trapped in the body of a 15 year old.

If your husband lacked the extreme social/emotional immaturity, that would explain why he did well with the opposite sex in high school.

 

[BeExcellent]

Yeah @SW15 I am not sure things would have worked out if my girls were living with me from the start. We had been dating 4 months and were already exclusive (at his insistence) when they moved out to live with me. That had long been the plan between myself and my ex husband, like for 5 years, and I think the IDEA of full time minors (very well behaved chill teens mind you) freaked him out more than the reality. My son was already away at college then, a high school junior & an 8th grader. Now the youngest is about to turn 17, is a junior herself and we are kid free in less than 2 years. If my kids were not very chill & very responsible things could have gone very differently. As things were, my husband moved in with us 6 months after the girls arrived. They get on well and it has worked out. Only the youngest still lives with us. My son is now married with his own family, my elder daughter wanted cats, tats and funky colored hair (none of which were going to fly at my house)....and she works & lives on her own with a roomate. She starts college this month. So things have been fine.

But I certainly can see (and agree with) your stance about preferrng childless women. I think my husband saw the tradeoff as being worthwhile to be with me...and he has become very supportive of my children's pursuits, although he has limited desire to meet my grandbaby (I understand as he has never been around babies and he finds them annoying....) so those trips I make mostly alone, lol and that is Ok.

As I said, you are never going to find a perfect person. So there will always be tradeoffs.

 

[BeExcellent]

Chicken and the egg. I have a conviction that the opposite sex will view me as a creep because that's how I was viewed in high school. Speaking of which, even though I had already gotten my diagnosis by the time I was in high school, I hadn't developed the hypothesis yet that my autism would hold me back with girls.

It wasn't until I was 20-21 that I finally developed the hypothesis "Maybe autism is the reason for my struggle."



I meant to ask (and since you didn't meet your husband until he was 45, you might not know the answer): When he was in high school, do you happen to know if your husband's autism caused his social/emotional age to be significantly younger than his actual age?

Even though I was in the top 10% academically, my autism caused my social/emotional age to be 6 years younger than my actual age when I was in high school.

The social/emotional immaturity was likely the biggest reason of why I (despite the fact my looks were bordering on 8/10 at the time) was viewed as a leper by girls at my school. No high school girl wants to date a 9 year old trapped in the body of a 15 year old.

If your husband lacked the extreme social/emotional immaturity, that would explain why he did well with the opposite sex in high school.

He had behavioral problems from a young age (outbursts, fighting, disruptive behavior) that were evaluated at 8 or 9. ASD was not in the lexicon then so it was considered ADHD and he was medicated (which didn't help). He was more the athlete/bad boy archetype and excelled in athletics, which of course appealed to girls. He also joined a fraternity in college, which meant parties and Greek life.

His dad has a photo of him at like 3.....he's walking down the street naked, with each arm around a naked girl toddler on either side. And they are all grinning. Its a hilarious photo.

I think girls were a refuge that he took advantage of. He got tons of attention & validation from women all his life. The difficulty seemed to be accepting that he could not dictate every whim or desire or goal of his to be the chick's top priority. He had trouble seeing the girl or woman as a distinct person with her own autonomy.

 

[BaronOfHair]

I have a conviction that the opposite sex will view me as a creep because that's how I was viewed in high school

You're not in high school anymore, and childhood is long past over, fashionable as it may currently be in many quarters of our society for folks to pretend otherwise:

The time has come to rid yourself of that conviction, adopt more functional beliefs instead

 

[BaronOfHair]

Big screen TVs were common in 2003. In 2003, households with bigger TV sets were more likely to have tube TV sets and not flat screens yet

Akin to quibbling over whether or not the blade attached to that guillotine was made of stainless steel or standard, when discussing The Reign Of Terror's immorality


The point here is that men in The Post-Industrial West have been increasingly hiding from the discomfort of life since the mid 1950s or so, when TV, talk radio and the like ended up in almost every household. This phenomena just gets more pervasive and pernicious with each passing decade, as further forms of on-demand, 24hr entertainment become accessible, providing us with more and more ways to escape into fantasy worlds

End result of all this is a population of several million men who are so poorly socialized, they might SEEM autistic/ afflicted by some other disorder, when they're really just unaccustomed to navigating relations with their fellow human beings

In GM's case, he may really have spent so much time in chat rooms and the like, he doesn't comprehend the intricacies of a conversation, thus persists in requesting aid, then "Yes, butting..."almost every reply he receives. Rather than simply saying "Much obliged!!! I'll give what you encourage a whirl"

 

[SW15]

I certainly can see (and agree with) your stance about preferring childless women.

Thank you for seeing things from my point of view.

I need to have a standard and enforce one. I don't think it is fair to me to deal with someone else's kids when I have an extended relationship with a romantic partner.

I have always perceived dating and relationships as complicated enough without kids from prior relationships entering the equation.

For over 25 years, I have stayed childless while participating in the mating environment. That takes effort. I think I would like a woman who has made a similar effort to my effort to stay childless.

The majority of women I've had sex with over the years were using birth control while having sex with me. There have been some women I've had sex with that weren't users of birth control.

 

[GoodMan32]

Yeah @SW15 I am not sure things would have worked out if my girls were living with me from the start. We had been dating 4 months and were already exclusive (at his insistence) when they moved out to live with me. That had long been the plan between myself and my ex husband, like for 5 years, and I think the IDEA of full time minors (very well behaved chill teens mind you) freaked him out more than the reality. My son was already away at college then, a high school junior & an 8th grader. Now the youngest is about to turn 17, is a junior herself and we are kid free in less than 2 years. If my kids were not very chill & very responsible things could have gone very differently. As things were, my husband moved in with us 6 months after the girls arrived. They get on well and it has worked out. Only the youngest still lives with us. My son is now married with his own family, my elder daughter wanted cats, tats and funky colored hair (none of which were going to fly at my house)....and she works & lives on her own with a roomate. She starts college this month. So things have been fine.

But I certainly can see (and agree with) your stance about preferrng childless women. I think my husband saw the tradeoff as being worthwhile to be with me...and he has become very supportive of my children's pursuits, although he has limited desire to meet my grandbaby (I understand as he has never been around babies and he finds them annoying....) so those trips I make mostly alone, lol and that is Ok.

As I said, you are never going to find a perfect person. So there will always be tradeoffs.

I myself don't like cats. Even though I've never dyed my hair, I suppose I'm open-minded toward others dying their hair funky colors.

I have one tat. My parents weren't thrilled when I first got it (even though I was 25). They've since come around.

He had behavioral problems from a young age (outbursts, fighting, disruptive behavior) that were evaluated at 8 or 9. ASD was not in the lexicon then so it was considered ADHD and he was medicated (which didn't help). He was more the athlete/bad boy archetype and excelled in athletics, which of course appealed to girls. He also joined a fraternity in college, which meant parties and Greek life.

His dad has a photo of him at like 3.....he's walking down the street naked, with each arm around a naked girl toddler on either side. And they are all grinning. Its a hilarious photo.

I think girls were a refuge that he took advantage of. He got tons of attention & validation from women all his life. The difficulty seemed to be accepting that he could not dictate every whim or desire or goal of his to be the chick's top priority. He had trouble seeing the girl or woman as a distinct person with her own autonomy.

The fact he was a good athlete could have been what made a big difference.

As far as high school sports, all I did was run track and cross country (and I wasn't very good)

I never attended a single party in college.

It's interesting how despite both having Asperger's, your husband and I had a vastly different high school/college experience.

Greek life would be miserable for most autists (although I had a past coworker I suspected was an autist who was a former frat boy; I guess your husband isn't the only one)

Thank you for seeing things from my point of view.

I need to have a standard and enforce one. I don't think it is fair to me to deal with someone else's kids when I have an extended relationship with a romantic partner.

I have always perceived dating and relationships as complicated enough without kids from prior relationships entering the equation.

For over 25 years, I have stayed childless while participating in the mating environment. That takes effort. I think I would like a woman who has made a similar effort to my effort to stay childless.

The majority of women I've had sex with over the years were using birth control while having sex with me. There have been some women I've had sex with that weren't users of birth control.

One good thing about having an affair with that married woman when I was 23: Even though she had kids, I (for obvious reasons) never had to meet her kids.

She’s only going to make it obvious if she’s VERY attracted.

If she’s moderately attracted and you have a chance, you will likely never know about it or be sure about it. Some attracted women will unfortunately fall through the cracks.

In other words, the only way (in most cases at least) to find out if you have a chance is to ask her out.

Yesterday I complimented the backside of a woman who works in my office building (different workplace at least). She didn't seem to get what I was saying (probably for the best).

It's astonishing how I'm bold enough to compliment a woman's backside when I'm technically on the job, yet doing a simple askout on a woman I need to cross paths with again is a crippling phobia (I suppose the difference is: Even though I'm going to cross paths with that woman from a different office again, I wasn't asking her out. I was merely complimenting her. So there's no rejection risk there)

 

[plumber]

She’s only going to make it obvious if she’s VERY attracted.

If she’s moderately attracted and you have a chance, you will likely never know about it or be sure about it. Some attracted women will unfortunately fall through the cracks.

its much easier of she is VERY attracted. it will over shadow all the other doubts. goal is to make improvements and find a venue where abilities shine.

 

[MatureDJ]

She’s only going to make it obvious if she’s VERY attracted.

If she’s moderately attracted and you have a chance, you will likely never know about it or be sure about it. Some attracted women will unfortunately fall through the cracks.

It's OVER for SheDoesn'tMakeItObviousCels.

 

[GoodMan32]

It's OVER for SheDoesn'tMakeItObviousCels.

Come to think of it, even if the woman makes it extremely obvious, that still doesn’t exactly help me. The more obvious the woman appears to be, the more reluctant I am to act on her cues (because the more obvious her cues appear to be, the more of an idiot I'm going to feel like if it turns out I misread her cues)

Hell, even if I know for a fact she's into me (like the 2 past coworkers I found out through the grapevine were into me), there's a high chance I won't make my move. In the case of these coworkers, I sidelined myself. Not because I have anything against getting involved with a coworker, but because "into me" is a vague term.

Unfortunately, the intel of finding out these 2 coworkers were into me raised more questions than it answered.

Did they want casual sex? (And even if they did, I'm basically illiterate at working my way to the bedroom organically. Even a majority of the free sex I had came from posting a Craigslist ad. Craigslist was ideal for autistic men, as there was a set forumla: Post an ad. Wait for a woman to reply. And then as long as I managed to keep a lid on my autism for long enough to exchange a few messages, she'd drive over to bang me)

Did they want to go on a date? If so, when and where?

Or perhaps they were simply "into me" in the sense that they thought I had good looks, yet had no desire to get involved with me (for dating or sex)

Rather than risk making the "wrong" choice, I did nothing.