I think that I just royally f'ed up

[AJ84]

You acknowledged that it's not fair however like life in general it is what it is (I agree), but you still put this in a more flattering way than what is the reality. We don't handle rejection better in an innate sense than you do (except for antisocial men). Women just feel entitled to let men deal with the things that require effort or pain, and have the abundance to make that a reality, which is how and why we need to learn to deal with it more.



I think whether he should make a move depends on what his goal with the woman is. I agree that he should not act out of fear, primarily for his own sake as it's a bad habit rather than because this specific girl may be turned off by it although that's a factor too. If she's just a plate, he could either make a move to get it over with or just minimize it and let her come to him as women can be more attracted to men whose feelings are unclear. As long as his choice is what he actually wants to do rather than out of fear, it's fine. However if he wants to screen for a ltr he should make a move, as that will filter out a dysfunctional woman who is repelled by him showing a modicum of intimacy.

Yeah I realize I implied that men handle rejection well. That came out wrong and is insulting to men actually. Thanks for pointing that out. I meant that women are usually worse at handling rejection than men. Always some exceptions of course.

 

[user43770]

@AJ84 most of this "game" knowledge is just psyc knowledge. I suspect that's why you stick around

 

[Spaz]

I'm usually a nice guy, as long as you're not spaz lol

Teenage boys are always rebellious with their daddies.

Don't worry boy, I understand ur plight and its normal.

 

[AJ84]

@AJ84 most of this "game" knowledge is just psyc knowledge. I suspect that's why you stick around

Hahaha. Some of it is psych knowledge but I notice that some of the game advice assumes that women are more assertive in their dating approach than they actually are. Like women will approach if a guy does xyz. Some of those scenarios I have personally never seen play out, outside of the context of bars and alcohol to be honest so I don’t know if the play book applies to every women and all venues but there is truth in some of it of course.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ok,I have a question here....

What have you done to display YOUR sexual interest to her?

So she's going out on dates,while you walk around with a pit in your stomach from seeing her out with other dudes.

Dude....you got to make a move. Other dudes are taking her out,while you walk around feeling sick.

I can tell you right now.......ANY PLAN you do where you continue to hang around and be in this girl's presense,while NOT asking her out will DOOM YOU to failure. You'd be better off just leaving her alone until you work up the courage to say something.

You telling her you liked her didn't ruin your chances with her......your lack of assertiveness while continuing to hang out with her did.

Exactly the above. It’s the same thing that turned me off about the hot guy I meet last weekend.

Listen @samspade and whoever else. I’m an attractive woman who is in the field. So I am interacting with single men who are looking to date etc., all the time. I also know men who are very successful with women. It’s a perspective from the women’s angle. It’s not a brag fest. I share enough to give context because I know what I’m talking about. Never mind all the years in the nightclub business observing men/woman interactions.

Ignore me if you think I’m a snot. But my experience might help somebody else so there’s no need to put me down.

Your insults have no bearing on my actual field experience or characteristics, which are accurately stated.

Just saying.

Back to thread. Cheers.

 

[user43770]

Teenage boys are always rebellious with their daddies.

Don't worry boy, I understand ur plight and its normal.

I like you. My attacks against you have become repetitive, unoriginal, and therefore boring.

You seem like a good dude for the most part.

 

[AttackFormation]

Yeah I realize I implied that men handle rejection well. That came out wrong and is insulting to men actually. Thanks for pointing that out. I meant that women are usually worse at handling rejection than men. Always some exceptions of course.

No prob, I just like to make gender dynamics clear for myself, I don't expect women to do that either

You know, women like guys who are smooth and fearless with women. Those guys (again, assuming they are not antisocials as then their brains are different from the start) probably got that way out of experience with many women, yet women say they want to "feel special". I'm just curious about it so I'll ask you, what do you think that guy could take as a woman being special? What makes you feel special, and do other women then necessarily have to be "not special" collateral damage in order for you to feel you stand out in this way? And does women wanting this kind of man, and to compete and win for him with over women, justify the process of becoming and being him?

I'm not asking for myself, just brainstorming and interested in what you women think.

 

[Spaz]

I like you. My attacks against you have become repetitive, unoriginal, and therefore boring.

You seem like a good dude for the most part.

Of course you like me, everyone does even when they hate me.

 

[user43770]

Of course you like me, everyone does even when they hate me.

Except for the child-molesting thread, eh?!

Edit - sorry, couldn't resist. That thread turned into such a sh1t show

 

[user43770]

I don't think the OP expressed vulnerability. He was afraid to be vulnerable. This is actually weakness as @BeExcellent pointed out.

I can do the same thing. But in my situation I would would be spinning 3-4 plates, and would be saying "I like you too much" for my own self amusement. I would even write her a love poem at 2 and laugh my a$$ off. It's all funny to me. I routinely go out of my way to disqualify myself because I don't believe there is anything I can do to actually disqualify myself.

But the OP is none of that.

You troll. Last I heard, you refused to approach women. Didn't need to, as they sensed your aura.

 

[BeExcellent]

Last we heard you were dating a man, for awhile. What happened to him? What happened to that relationship?

At about the 1.5 year mark I began to pull back. I was concerned about his financial habits which I was getting a better read on and his gambling habit. Also his life goals kept changing. One day one thing, next day a completely different thing. He is drifting a bit aimlessly and seems to have lost his purpose.

At the 2 year mark I broke it off completely after 6 months of back and forth. During those 6 months I saw seriously compulsive gambling emerge, and came to realize no matter how much money he has (a 6 figure passive retirement income), his spending and gambling outstrips his income. He kept all that well hidden/under control for quite a while even though I have sat and watched him play poker many many times.

I do not need a compulsive gambler in my life. The last straw was finding out he has 140K in gambling debt and has filed 3 bankruptcies over his life. I’m on a wealth accumulation trajectory and am extremely financially responsible. There is no point continuing with him.

He also is a BPD. That has its own set of issues.

I love him and we had a blast, but the more I learned the more I saw nothing good long term.

He wanted very much to remain friends as we had developed a close friendship in his mind...but I need time to be strict no contact to get over it. I’m actually doing fine as I’ve turned this over in my mind for 6 months already...and since the break he has been both reaching out (that is finally slowing down), and my friends have seen him out with other women...and I’ve had dates already too...

So it’s done. I have one friend whose ex wife embezzled 1.5 million from him during their marriage and I never want that to be me. Not with the responsibilities I have.

Fun for sure but bullet dodged.

 

[guru1000]

The super aloof approach comes off as low interest or fear or lack of initiative. None of those things are positive in the mind


If you look at what I suggested in my message it’s not a formal gee can I take you to dinner suggestion. It’s hey I’m gonna kick it over here. Join me.

Those are very different energies. Indecision and aloof behavior can easily come off as low interest, no initiative and wishy washy. Not attractive.

This girl in fact has ALREADY launched that complaint rather candidly. Because of that OP told her he likes her. Ok cool. He didn’t turn into a lap dog in that moment but he shouldn’t just go back to the ultra Joe Cool behavior either. It’s tiring, and while it may build attraction at first...it’s annoying over time.

Example. Last weekend I met a cool guy. Tall dark & handsome, nice muscular body, full hair, well dressed. He had stared at me all night, his friend was obviously talking with him about me, lots of non verbal cues. I even walked over nearby and bought myself a drink to increase proximity...and nearly sasheyed off before the friend grabbed me. Good conversation ensued until my friends (who were ready to bounce and I was driving), dragged me off. He fished around a bit awkwardly in his billfold and gave me a business card. My cell is on there...he said. My friends were jonesing to go & I didn’t have my phone & he wasn’t smooth enough in that moment to whip out his phone for my number.

So I sent him a text the next day to say nice to meet you. He pinged back immediately but let the conversation drop. He’s an IT guy, reserved, bit of an introvert, but quite attractive. Also kind of awkward. Sunday I ran into his buddy who said hey what’s up with dude, and I said I don’t know, not all that communicative...a little while later he pings me to come for a drink somewhere else. I say OK. I show up, buddy is there as well as a female pal, and while it was nice to hang out with them and they were cool, I didn’t have opportunity to get to know him very much. He walked me to my car, gave me a light kiss & we both left. Sporadic texts a bit this past week, but if he expects me to chase after him and do the leader’s job of initiating, then he’s either 1. Not that into me, 2. Seeing someone else already (refer also to 1.), or 3.) is socially awkward.

Had the guy stayed he liked me or been more assertive in the interactions, I’d still have high interest. As it stands now Im more “Meh”. He’s still attractive but I need more to work with.

Contrast that to a less physically attractive but extremely socially attuned man who pinged me earlier tonight, was engaging and asked me out for a night next week straightaway. Very interesting, intelligent and funny guy, brilliant intellect, less physically attractive than I generally entertain but elegant and classy and adroit. Complete self confidence, which has a certain swagger I appreciate.

Fortune favors the bold. Be bold. Be a man. Go after what you want and don’t apologize for that. Don’t be a puppy either. Find the middle path.

You’re going to have a divide on this topic BE.

I’ve been on both sides of this equation: the Pursuer (in the very beginning) and the Pursued.

Here’s the General rule:

Women who are younger early to mid 20s are more prone to pursue. Women who are younger with extremely high IL are likely to pursue;

Women who are older, 33 yo+, tend to be more traditional in the dating sense, and will give you the green light to pursue them. If these women do not have high IL, they are not likely to pursue. If they do have high IL, some will pursue, some won’t.

That’s why we have a divide in the forum.

Here’s how I operate having done both. Ultimately, I want to be pursued. This is a man’s best frame and creates the strongest desire in a woman, as she appreciates what she has to work hard for. (Akin to its your best strategy to have man work hard for you to appreciate you).

Some girls will pursue. Some won’t. I observe what type of girl I’m dealing with and operate accordingly. I give us enough space post-date to gauge her and to allow her to pursue. If she is one who does not pursue, I’ll initiate a date request, BUT only if she had made enough effort on the date to merit that.

This is all done unconsciously. If I feel averted in any manner, it means she failed to initiate or give me enough of a green light in our communications to pursue aka initiate a date with her.

Either way, the onus is on her to perform: either she pursues or gives me enough of a green light to initiate a date with her. Any behavior to the contrary, will naturally avert me.

As to the OP: as they are within the same social circle, all he needs to do is allow her to get into his space again (which she will if she has enough interest) and then prompt a drink date. If she doesn’t get in his space, let her be.

 

[guru1000]

I agree with this but the problem with the OP is he destroyed the illusion of her having to pursue him. It's all moot now.

I am just speaking from personal experience. I have had women pursue me. But everytime I revealed that I liked them all along, they disappear.

Most guys are so used to pursuing women, they have no idea what to do when they are the ones pursued. They don't even know how to operate in this frame.

This board spends 99% of the time preaching how to pursue women.

Depends on one’s frame really. I can and have said to a girl, “you know I love you right.” But she knows I’m trolling her and have an entourage for the remaining weekend and she may never hear from me again.

OP’s problem is not so much what he said but the frame he was operating in when he said it. Does a sovereign being hold that type of feeling for a girl he has not slept with and known for a long time? The problem was when he said it—he meant it, and she hasn’t yet earned it.

 

[lamath]

At about the 1.5 year mark I began to pull back. I was concerned about his financial habits which I was getting a better read on and his gambling habit. Also his life goals kept changing. One day one thing, next day a completely different thing. He is drifting a bit aimlessly and seems to have lost his purpose.

At the 2 year mark I broke it off completely after 6 months of back and forth. During those 6 months I saw seriously compulsive gambling emerge, and came to realize no matter how much money he has (a 6 figure passive retirement income), his spending and gambling outstrips his income. He kept all that well hidden/under control for quite a while even though I have sat and watched him play poker many many times.

I do not need a compulsive gambler in my life. The last straw was finding out he has 140K in gambling debt and has filed 3 bankruptcies over his life. I’m on a wealth accumulation trajectory and am extremely financially responsible. There is no point continuing with him.

He also is a BPD. That has its own set of issues.

I love him and we had a blast, but the more I learned the more I saw nothing good long term.

He wanted very much to remain friends as we had developed a close friendship in his mind...but I need time to be strict no contact to get over it. I’m actually doing fine as I’ve turned this over in my mind for 6 months already...and since the break he has been both reaching out (that is finally slowing down), and my friends have seen him out with other women...and I’ve had dates already too...

So it’s done. I have one friend whose ex wife embezzled 1.5 million from him during their marriage and I never want that to be me. Not with the responsibilities I have.

Fun for sure but bullet dodged.

On the gambling front if he mostly play poker it might not be as bad as you think.

Its possible to make very good money at it unlike other form of gambling, my brother as heen living of poker for almost 3 year now, i made about 20k playing small stake over a few years.

Poker is also volatile, when you have a bad run it can paint a bad picture thats does not reflect how.much some one is winning losing.


But obv if bpd next asap, im wondering why you would stay with a bpd that long.
Not judging but it usualy say alot on someone character.

 

[AJ84]

No prob, I just like to make gender dynamics clear for myself, I don't expect women to do that either

You know, women like guys who are smooth and fearless with women. Those guys (again, assuming they are not antisocials as then their brains are different from the start) probably got that way out of experience with many women, yet women say they want to "feel special". I'm just curious about it so I'll ask you, what do you think that guy could take as a woman being special? What makes you feel special, and do other women then necessarily have to be "not special" collateral damage in order for you to feel you stand out in this way? And does women wanting this kind of man, and to compete and win for him with over women, justify the process of becoming and being him?

I'm not asking for myself, just brainstorming and interested in what you women think.

Showing that she is more than a plate or pump and dump is 90% of making her feel special, just that alone lol honestly. The rest really depends on what the girl values and it’s different for different women but for the vast majority of women, being one plate of many in a rotation isn’t something that makes them feel special because we are not being chosen as the ONE. We want to be the ONE and only.

Some women don’t want that of course, they want to date and not have a bf and that’s fine but the average woman wants to know that he’s her guy and she’s his girl and he picked her out of his other options and she earned that spot.

She should definitely earn it.

 

[AttackFormation]

Showing that she is more than a plate or pump and dump is 90% of making her feel special, just that alone lol honestly. The rest really depends on what the girl values and it’s different for different women but for the vast majority of women, being one plate of many in a rotation isn’t something that makes them feel special because we are not being chosen as the ONE. We want to be the ONE and only.

Some women don’t want that of course, they want to date and not have a bf and that’s fine but the average woman wants to know that he’s her guy and she’s his girl and he picked her out of his other options and she earned that spot.

She should definitely earn it.

OK - so about those options. Do you need to actually behold his options? Or is it just the perception itself that other women would want him - even whether he has an "active roster" or not? Maybe he doesn't need that and you can just take him out, then check out other women checking him out.

By "she should definitely earn it" I take it to mean, you want to feel like you earned it. Do you just need to hope to be picked by the man as his favorite girl in of itself, or do you more actively compete against other women? What makes you feel like he has let you earn it?

 

[gettinit]

I think that I may have to clear a few things up. When I first met her, I wasn't taken by her. I had other interests and as we talked here and there, attractive things surfaced. No pedestal here though. She doesn't occupy my thoughts 24/7, but enough that there is something there that I just can't put my finger on. As far as being invested, not at all. She is there and I am there, simple as that.

I think that what I said came out confidently and it was certainly not apologetic. if I say something, I own it. Stupid or not.

Again, knowing her situation and realizing that I has SOME interest, I tried to give her some hints of sexual interest to stay out of the friend zone, kind of in a holding pattern. For example: The girl is a hugger. She hugs everyone. Girls, guys. If she has talked to you enough times to get acquainted, you are getting a hug. So, after a few conversations, I got them too. Before you start thinking.. oh friend zone, I didn't just do the quick, get it over with microsecond thing. I gave her a tight squeeze, kept my hands on her waist, looked her straight in the eye and said "you smell delicious". The look on her face, the tone of her thank you and the lingering eye contact let me know that it had the desired effect. If we end up sitting together, (she approaches me usually) you couldn't slip a piece of paper between us. If she or I move and her leg goes against mine. There is no "oops" pull back. It stays there. Yes, these are little things and could always be misinterpreted, but there are more and as a group, I think not.

You may be asking, what is stopping you? I saw this as a timing thing and rebounds have affected me more than once. I have been on the other end as well. I'm not sure that her mind has cleared of the old relationship yet and I'm happy to let someone else take that bullet. Call it fear if you want. I call it experience. I have no idea how she will read it. I'm just going to stay steady and see if there is a change on her end and I'm pretty sure that there will be one. I'm not going to cry over spilled milk. Either the cat is going to lap it up or I'm going to step in it and I don't see any in between since I'm not going to try and clean it up. With my schedule, I don't think that I will see her for a week or more so text may be my only clue in the interim. Meanwhile, on with life.

Lots of interesting view points and I appreciate all of it.

 

[AttackFormation]

Even though your question is aimed at @AJ84, I'll answer it for you. Women feel special when they feel like they have to work for your affections. Any experienced guy knows this. But according to sosuave, guys who expect women to pursue are considered "unmanly" or trolls. Shows you the collective incel experience of sosuave members.

A woman makes an effort. You reward her for her effort. And only then can she place a value judgement on you. This is not even "game." It's human nature. Go ahead and reward your own family members for doing nothing. They will start to take you for granted/take advantage of you/devalue you. You would be the red headed step child of your own family.

I don't really care about your provocations for an internet d!ck contest quote war in this or that other thread, but I'll answer this in particular so others reading understand, since people sometimes talk about the presence of women on this board. I'm asking AJ because I want her as a woman to put it in her own words. I like listening to women.

 

[user43770]

I don't think the OP expressed vulnerability. He was afraid to be vulnerable. This is actually weakness as @BeExcellent pointed out.

I can do the same thing. But in my situation I would would be spinning 3-4 plates, and would be saying "I like you too much" for my own self amusement. I would even write her a love poem at 2 and laugh my a$$ off. It's all funny to me. I routinely go out of my way to disqualify myself because I don't believe there is anything I can do to actually disqualify myself.

But the OP is none of that.

My advice is simple. Don't tell her you like her. Show her. This is real vulnerability and strength. She already made the effort at meeting you half way. All you gotta do next is reciprocate. It's as simple as ABC 123.

The OP doesn't seem to have a problem attracting women, but his main sticking point is expressing vulnerability when it's time to.

My advice was simple and to the point. Your advice was flowery and went nowhere, per usual.

 

[BeExcellent]

Did I insult you or put you down? I thought we just disagreed, and even then, barely.

We are good, lol