I think that I just royally f'ed up

[gettinit]

I think that I may have to clear a few things up. When I first met her, I wasn't taken by her. I had other interests and as we talked here and there, attractive things surfaced. No pedestal here though. She doesn't occupy my thoughts 24/7, but enough that there is something there that I just can't put my finger on. As far as being invested, not at all. She is there and I am there, simple as that.

I think that what I said came out confidently and it was certainly not apologetic. if I say something, I own it. Stupid or not.

Again, knowing her situation and realizing that I has SOME interest, I tried to give her some hints of sexual interest to stay out of the friend zone, kind of in a holding pattern. For example: The girl is a hugger. She hugs everyone. Girls, guys. If she has talked to you enough times to get acquainted, you are getting a hug. So, after a few conversations, I got them too. Before you start thinking.. oh friend zone, I didn't just do the quick, get it over with microsecond thing. I gave her a tight squeeze, kept my hands on her waist, looked her straight in the eye and said "you smell delicious". The look on her face, the tone of her thank you and the lingering eye contact let me know that it had the desired effect. If we end up sitting together, (she approaches me usually) you couldn't slip a piece of paper between us. If she or I move and her leg goes against mine. There is no "oops" pull back. It stays there. Yes, these are little things and could always be misinterpreted, but there are more and as a group, I think not.

You may be asking, what is stopping you? I saw this as a timing thing and rebounds have affected me more than once. I have been on the other end as well. I'm not sure that her mind has cleared of the old relationship yet and I'm happy to let someone else take that bullet. Call it fear if you want. I call it experience. I have no idea how she will read it. I'm just going to stay steady and see if there is a change on her end and I'm pretty sure that there will be one. I'm not going to cry over spilled milk. Either the cat is going to lap it up or I'm going to step in it and I don't see any in between since I'm not going to try and clean it up. With my schedule, I don't think that I will see her for a week or more so text may be my only clue in the interim. Meanwhile, on with life.

Lots of interesting view points and I appreciate all of it.

 

[AttackFormation]

Even though your question is aimed at @AJ84, I'll answer it for you. Women feel special when they feel like they have to work for your affections. Any experienced guy knows this. But according to sosuave, guys who expect women to pursue are considered "unmanly" or trolls. Shows you the collective incel experience of sosuave members.

A woman makes an effort. You reward her for her effort. And only then can she place a value judgement on you. This is not even "game." It's human nature. Go ahead and reward your own family members for doing nothing. They will start to take you for granted/take advantage of you/devalue you. You would be the red headed step child of your own family.

I don't really care about your provocations for an internet d!ck contest quote war in this or that other thread, but I'll answer this in particular so others reading understand, since people sometimes talk about the presence of women on this board. I'm asking AJ because I want her as a woman to put it in her own words. I like listening to women.

 

[user43770]

I don't think the OP expressed vulnerability. He was afraid to be vulnerable. This is actually weakness as @BeExcellent pointed out.

I can do the same thing. But in my situation I would would be spinning 3-4 plates, and would be saying "I like you too much" for my own self amusement. I would even write her a love poem at 2 and laugh my a$$ off. It's all funny to me. I routinely go out of my way to disqualify myself because I don't believe there is anything I can do to actually disqualify myself.

But the OP is none of that.

My advice is simple. Don't tell her you like her. Show her. This is real vulnerability and strength. She already made the effort at meeting you half way. All you gotta do next is reciprocate. It's as simple as ABC 123.

The OP doesn't seem to have a problem attracting women, but his main sticking point is expressing vulnerability when it's time to.

My advice was simple and to the point. Your advice was flowery and went nowhere, per usual.

 

[samspade]

Exactly the above. It’s the same thing that turned me off about the hot guy I meet last weekend.

Listen @samspade and whoever else. I’m an attractive woman who is in the field. So I am interacting with single men who are looking to date etc., all the time. I also know men who are very successful with women. It’s a perspective from the women’s angle. It’s not a brag fest. I share enough to give context because I know what I’m talking about. Never mind all the years in the nightclub business observing men/woman interactions.

Ignore me if you think I’m a snot. But my experience might help somebody else so there’s no need to put me down.

Your insults have no bearing on my actual field experience or characteristics, which are accurately stated.

Just saying.

Back to thread. Cheers.

Did I insult you or put you down? I thought we just disagreed, and even then, barely.

 

[samspade]

OP’s problem is not so much what he said but the frame he was operating in when he said it. Does a sovereign being hold that type of feeling for a girl he has not slept with and known for a long time? The problem was when he said it—he meant it, and she hasn’t yet earned it.

Thank you. It's not complicated, folks.

Edit, well, @gettinit , you've got more advice than you need now. It's the SoSuave way!

 

[BeExcellent]

Did I insult you or put you down? I thought we just disagreed, and even then, barely.

We are good, lol

 

[user43770]

I generally make my point within a few sentences. Not sure why it takes you forever @stormrider

 

[BeExcellent]

On the gambling front if he mostly play poker it might not be as bad as you think.

Its possible to make very good money at it unlike other form of gambling, my brother as heen living of poker for almost 3 year now, i made about 20k playing small stake over a few years.

Poker is also volatile, when you have a bad run it can paint a bad picture thats does not reflect how.much some one is winning losing.


But obv if bpd next asap, im wondering why you would stay with a bpd that long.
Not judging but it usualy say alot on someone character.

BPD is challenging. It kept my ego engaged. Just yesterday I was chatting with a guy who is a friend of mine who is himself an unapologetic player about the matter. He laughed and said this (which I think is interesting and might benefit the board):

“You guys had great chemistry and polarity. You were worthy adversaries and great partners. Everyone could see the way you both genuinely lit up around one another. You were equals. He’s used to controlling women, gaining complete compliance...and then getting bored...but he couldn’t control you and although you were very sweet to him you were also sassy & didn’t always comply. This fascinated him. He was a challenge to you, which kept you engaged and you wanted to conquer him, but you couldn’t conquer him & he couldn’t conquer you either so you guys had a lengthy dance of cat & mouse & mouse and cat. And it was great fun to see.”

He doubts it over due to the narcissism element on both sides. I disagree.

As to the poker @lamath that is true. But to be successful at poker (as an astute observer...I do not play) requires several things. One is astute ability to read the other players and ascertain pot odds and percentage likelihood of success in hands at the table. He is amazing at this. Two is you must know how to bet into a hand and get money into the pot. He is great at that. Three you must play relaxed for you can never eliminate the element of chance. He was improving at this, but still goes “on tilt” too much. And Four you must have the discipline to leave the table when you are well up in chips. He is terrible at this. He would triple his money playing smart, then would decide he wanted to either double up again or would zero in on a specific player he wanted to “knock out”, and this bit him in the ass repeatedly. He’d get way up, lose everything due to ego, get mad, buy in again and end up losing more money. When I realized he is borrowing money against both his house, his car, and also taking personal high interest short term loans to play...and STILL losing that money? Time for me to bail lest he drag me into that black hole with him.

I never gave him money to play. I never got financially involved with him at all, Thank God. Once, very early on he asked me to front him $1000. I told him hell no and NEVER ask me again. He never did. He’s dug himself a pretty deep hole. Not my job to fix him, not my job to bail him out.

Was time to eject.

 

[Igetit!]

I think that I may have to clear a few things up. When I first met her, I wasn't taken by her. I had other interests and as we talked here and there, attractive things surfaced. No pedestal here though.

May I ask how long you've known this girl? Simple question.

She doesn't occupy my thoughts 24/7,

Just enough to discuss her over the internet with a few hundred strangers. That's cool.

As far as being invested, not at all.

River in Egypt.

I think that what I said came out confidently and it was certainly not apologetic. if I say something, I own it. Stupid or not.

You think what you said came out confidently.... You mean the "I like you too much" remark? The same remark of which you said....

"I have never in my life wished more to be able to suck words right back in".....?

Ummm....ok.

Again, knowing her situation and realizing that I has SOME interest, I tried to give her some hints of sexual interest to stay out of the friend zone,

That's THE SEED of where you screwed up began. We're NOT WOMEN,dude. You "DON'T HINT" your sexual interest to a chick,you let it out. Chicks hint,insinuate. You gotta let it out. Chicks give the green light for YOU to pursue...not the other way around. Look....

SOMEBODY has to risk REJECTION. And 99% of the time,it's gonna be us guys...that's just how it is.

For example: The girl is a hugger. She hugs everyone. Girls, guys. If she has talked to you enough times to get acquainted, you are getting a hug. So, after a few conversations, I got them too. Before you start thinking.. oh friend zone, I didn't just do the quick, get it over with microsecond thing. I gave her a tight squeeze, kept my hands on her waist, looked her straight in the eye and said "you smell delicious".

Her being a hugger is A BAD example. The fact that you held the hug a bit longer doesn't mean anything,nor your delicious comment if it all yielded nothing. I'm going to say this over and over again.....

IF THERE'S NO RISK OF REJECTION,THERE WILL BE NO DATE. It can be you,or the girl,but SOMEBODY has to risk it.

The look on her face, the tone of her thank you and the lingering eye contact let me know that it had the desired effect.

It had the desired effect. Ok... So I take it you two went out (on a date) after that? That IS a goal of yours concerning her,right?

Or are you content just getting an occasional hug and seeing her out on dates with OTHER men?

If we end up sitting together, (she approaches me usually) you couldn't slip a piece of paper between us. If she or I move and her leg goes against mine. There is no "oops" pull back. It stays there. Yes, these are little things and could always be misinterpreted, but there are more and as a group, I think not.

Man.... The age on your profile says 34. You too old for this.....this stuff is like junior high.

I'm not sure that her mind has cleared of the old relationship yet and I'm happy to let someone else take that bullet.

You're not sure her mind is clear of her old relationship,yet.....you saw her out on A DATE some other guy.

Well how long do you plan to wait before you're sure her mind is free before YOU decide to act?

Call it fear if you want.

Ok....it's fear.

I'm just going to stay steady and see if there is a change on her end and I'm pretty sure that there will be one.

Me too.....

And NOT for the better. I just call it how I see it.

I'm not saying you can't make anything out of this,maybe you can. But I AM SAYING that you continuing on in your current course of action (or inaction) WILL LEAD TO ZERO RESULTS.

 

[BeExcellent]

May I ask how long you've known this girl? Simple question.



Just enough to discuss her over the internet with a few hundred strangers. That's cool.



River in Egypt.



You think what you said came out confidently.... You mean the "I like you too much" remark? The same remark of which you said....

"I have never in my life wished more to be able to suck words right back in".....?

Ummm....ok.



That's THE SEED of where you screwed up began. We're NOT WOMEN,dude. You "DON'T HINT" your sexual interest to a chick,you let it out. Chicks hint,insinuate. You gotta let it out. Chicks give the green light for YOU to pursue...not the other way around. Look....

SOMEBODY has to risk REJECTION. And 99% of the time,it's gonna be us guys...that's just how it is.




Her being a hugger is A BAD example. The fact that you held the hug a bit longer doesn't mean anything,nor your delicious comment if it all yielded nothing. I'm going to say this over and over again.....

IF THERE'S NO RISK OF REJECTION,THERE WILL BE NO DATE. It can be you,or the girl,but SOMEBODY has to risk it.




It had the desired effect. Ok... So I take it you two went out (on a date) after that? That IS a goal of yours concerning her,right?

Or are you content just getting an occasional hug and seeing her out on dates with OTHER men?




Man.... The age on your profile says 34. You too old for this.....this stuff is like junior high.



You're not sure her mind is clear of her old relationship,yet.....you saw her out on A DATE some other guy.

Well how long do you plan to wait before you're sure her mind is free before YOU decide to act?



Ok....it's fear.



Me too.....

And NOT for the better. I just call it how I see it.

I'm not saying you can't make anything out of this,maybe you can. But I AM SAYING that you continuing on in your current course of action (or inaction) WILL LEAD TO ZERO RESULTS.

Concur 1000%. Read the above post over & over OP. Truth it is.

 

[user43770]

 

[AttackFormation]

May I ask how long you've known this girl? Simple question.



Just enough to discuss her over the internet with a few hundred strangers. That's cool.



River in Egypt.



You think what you said came out confidently.... You mean the "I like you too much" remark? The same remark of which you said....

"I have never in my life wished more to be able to suck words right back in".....?

Ummm....ok.



That's THE SEED of where you screwed up began. We're NOT WOMEN,dude. You "DON'T HINT" your sexual interest to a chick,you let it out. Chicks hint,insinuate. You gotta let it out. Chicks give the green light for YOU to pursue...not the other way around. Look....

SOMEBODY has to risk REJECTION. And 99% of the time,it's gonna be us guys...that's just how it is.




Her being a hugger is A BAD example. The fact that you held the hug a bit longer doesn't mean anything,nor your delicious comment if it all yielded nothing. I'm going to say this over and over again.....

IF THERE'S NO RISK OF REJECTION,THERE WILL BE NO DATE. It can be you,or the girl,but SOMEBODY has to risk it.




It had the desired effect. Ok... So I take it you two went out (on a date) after that? That IS a goal of yours concerning her,right?

Or are you content just getting an occasional hug and seeing her out on dates with OTHER men?




Man.... The age on your profile says 34. You too old for this.....this stuff is like junior high.



You're not sure her mind is clear of her old relationship,yet.....you saw her out on A DATE some other guy.

Well how long do you plan to wait before you're sure her mind is free before YOU decide to act?



Ok....it's fear.



Me too.....

And NOT for the better. I just call it how I see it.

I'm not saying you can't make anything out of this,maybe you can. But I AM SAYING that you continuing on in your current course of action (or inaction) WILL LEAD TO ZERO RESULTS.

Sent it out of the ballpark...

 

[user43770]

You’re going to have a divide on this topic BE.

I’ve been on both sides of this equation: the Pursuer (in the very beginning) and the Pursued.

Here’s the General rule:

Women who are younger early to mid 20s are more prone to pursue. Women who are younger with extremely high IL are likely to pursue;

Women who are older, 33 yo+, tend to be more traditional in the dating sense, and will give you the green light to pursue them. If these women do not have high IL, they are not likely to pursue. If they do have high IL, some will pursue, some won’t.

That’s why we have a divide in the forum.

Here’s how I operate having done both. Ultimately, I want to be pursued. This is a man’s best frame and creates the strongest desire in a woman, as she appreciates what she has to work hard for. (Akin to its your best strategy to have man work hard for you to appreciate you).

Some girls will pursue. Some won’t. I observe what type of girl I’m dealing with and operate accordingly. I give us enough space post-date to gauge her and to allow her to pursue. If she is one who does not pursue, I’ll initiate a date request, BUT only if she had made enough effort on the date to merit that.

This is all done unconsciously. If I feel averted in any manner, it means she failed to initiate or give me enough of a green light in our communications to pursue aka initiate a date with her.

Either way, the onus is on her to perform: either she pursues or gives me enough of a green light to initiate a date with her. Any behavior to the contrary, will naturally avert me.

As to the OP: as they are within the same social circle, all he needs to do is allow her to get into his space again (which she will if she has enough interest) and then prompt a drink date. If she doesn’t get in his space, let her be.

God damn. This is what sosuave has to deal with? Bunch of wannabe movie stars that act like women?

 

[AttackFormation]

God damn. This is what sosuave has to deal with? Bunch of wannabe movie stars that act like women?

lol, what do you mean bro?

 

[guru1000]

God damn. This is what sosuave has to deal with? Bunch of wannabe movie stars that act like women?

This can be a great discussion if you elaborate. Which part is acting like a woman, allowing a girl to pursue you?

Need a response by 7pm eastern otherwise I’m out for the weekend. I have a 23 yo virgin pursuing to be ... , not kidding lol

 

[user43770]

This can be a great discussion if you elaborate. Which part is acting like a woman, allowing a girl to pursue you?

Need a response by 7pm eastern otherwise I’m out for the weekend. I have a 23 yo virgin pursuing to be ... , not kidding lol

Probably have a manicure scheduled in the mean time.

Theoretical douche bag. All you do is repeat other people's words as your own.

Come at me, bro. And tell me I can't find it in the DJB

 

[user43770]

This can be a great discussion if you elaborate. Which part is acting like a woman, allowing a girl to pursue you?

Need a response by 7pm eastern otherwise I’m out for the weekend. I have a 23 yo virgin pursuing to be ... , not kidding lol

Tell me anything you say, that I can't find in the DJ Bible, guru.

 

[guru1000]

Probably have a manicure scheduled in the mean time.

Theoretical douche bag. All you do is repeat other people's words as your own.

Come at me, bro. And tell me I can't find it in the DJB

Running out of time. I’ll make your argument for you since you seem incapable of a countering with a worthy contention.

I have not read anywhere about allowing women to pursue except for @stormrider’s posts.

However his method and my own are slightly different. I am willing to approach women when I desire to.

What I referred to in my post in allowing a woman to pursue is AFTER the initial date. This part is crucial and does not rest in a man outer value IF he got the date to begin with.

I mentioned in another post that I respect Nature. Nature has an ironic sense of humor:

What comes easy is not easily appreciated. But what was born from effort is appreciated and appears valuable to us. And the greater her effort, the greater her ensuing desire. Desire and effort perpetuate upon one another and grow in tandem.

So ... Post date I will wait to see effort. Half the time that wait is short because immediately following the date, she will initiate with a thank you. There is her effort as I referenced.

Other times she will initiate after the date. There is her effort.

Other times she won’t initiate at all. To this last type, her not initiating does not automatically mean she does not have desire though it could. Here, within these types, I look toward date, and if I observed enough effort on the date, my desire has already Increased commensurately .. and I so will initiate eventually if she does not.

Now .. here is the key distinction. This differs with a Guru1000 maybe five years ago where my desire was independent of her. All she needed to do was show up and I would desire her or not desire her. Today, my desire must be earned by her efforts. And this happens completely naturally born through repetition.

Anyway thank you for taking my bait from bringing this from PM to the discussion board. I wanted to get this post out there and you were my reason.
I encourage you to find this anywhere on the Internet. Have a great weekend.

 

[AJ84]

OK - so about those options. Do you need to actually behold his options? Or is it just the perception itself that other women would want him - even whether he has an "active roster" or not? Maybe he doesn't need that and you can just take him out, then check out other women checking him out.

By "she should definitely earn it" I take it to mean, you want to feel like you earned it. Do you just need to hope to be picked by the man as his favorite girl in of itself, or do you more actively compete against other women? What makes you feel like he has let you earn it?

For me it would be the knowledge that he has options - how other women react to him. I know some guys here preach about parading around with a harem or whatever to rope his desired girl whose interest is supposed to increase when she sees that but personally that does nothing for me because I have zero interest in joining a harem to compete for a guy.

That said, when I was single and was newly dating a guy I assumed he was dating others in the beginning because why wouldn’t he. That was all I needed to validate myself to him if I was interested enough, and the earning it would be by being fun, engaging, and trying to get a connection going. I wouldn’t sit on my ass and hope lol, I would be responsive to him so he would know I’m into him, that includes sexual stuff. Also I would remember if he commented on how I wore my hair or a pair of shoes I wore and I would wear those again, little stuff like that. Or make him a meal I know he likes. I have a thing where I like to surprise them with stuff I know they would like. Like tickets to venues.

If I was part of a harem I didn’t know for sure and didn’t want to know lol. I didn’t ask who he was dating or chatting up when we were newly dating. For me, I would just get hung up on the other girls and the focus would be on who they were and what they were like, rather than the focus being on getting to know him. I just assumed that he, like me, was exploring options for the best fit.

If I wasn’t into the guy that much I would just engage less.

When he offers or is receptive to my offering of exclusivity, that’s when I know I have earned it.

I know some girls are ok with not being exclusive but I don’t make an effort for anything less than that. If I really like the guy I will work to earn that. That’s not to say I have not casually dated. On a few occasions I have when I know the guy wasn’t going to want to be my boyfriend, but they were cute, I was single and why not, until something better came along. But I didn’t go out of my way to be with those guys.

That’s my spin, may be different for other women but I notice that when women are really into a guy they want to know more about him, his childhood, favourite memories, his relationship with his family, hobbies etc. Like what he is about.

 

[Focal core]

You sound like a virgin, no offense. Women like guys that are fearless with women? Yeah maybe 14 year old girls who've never experienced romance before. No grown woman is going to give you brownie points for being able to pursue them, lol.

"Fear" and "woman" are two words, when put in the same sentence, gives the person writing those words away as inexperienced. Projection as its finest.

Even though your question is aimed at @AJ84, I'll answer it for you. Women feel special when they feel like they have to work for your affections. Any experienced guy knows this. But according to sosuave, guys who expect women to pursue are considered "unmanly" or trolls. Shows you the collective incel experience of sosuave members.

A woman makes an effort. You reward her for her effort. And only then can she place a value judgement on you. This is not even "game." It's human nature. Go ahead and reward your own family members for doing nothing. They will start to take you for granted/take advantage of you/devalue you. You would be the red headed step child of your own family.

However, it can be argued that a man can be so abundant that he gives away his validation to every woman without expecting anything in return and he would be seen as high value and attractive.

For anyone who has ever reached this level of abundance, the question becomes "How do you reconcile coming from abundance and giving away your validation freely vs withholding your validation so that they can have the gift of pursuing you?"

Luckily for you guys I have been there so I can speak on this.

There have been times when I've experienced total abundance and I would just give my validation away without expecting anything in return. This made me look very attractive and women would pursue me. They can sense the value.

When they pursue me, the CONTEXT is now romantic. This is when I make her earn my interest. Because I don't just give my ROMANTIC validation away to just about anyone. That would make me a low value emotional slvt.

There are levels to this. There's the social context. And romantic context.

Socially, when I am at my most optimal state, I give value to everyone.

But romantically, I make women earn my interest. As a guy coming from abundance, it is impossible to be otherwise. You cannot be easily impressed. However, there are exceptions.

Every now and then you will run into your version of a perfect 10. She will appear as if she was your mirror reflection.

And for the context of this thread, I assume OP ran into his "perfect 10."

When in this situation, you do not hide, regress, front, or play games. You come as you are. You allow her to get into your space and seduce you. And you reward her for her efforts with affection and validation.

This! Straight on the point, I only reward them for mention above, but not all, only the one I like.