FR: Date 7/13/22(Deep Dive)

[nicksaiz65]

I had a date today. I want to detail it to you all, and see what I could’ve done better.

This girl was pretty cute. A redhead with very long hair. She was also an artsy chick, which is something that I’m pretty into because I tend to vibe with those chicks pretty well. She was also a teacher, one of my game goals is to close a teacher lol.

I used my standard flake prevention tactics before the date that I learned from Roosh V, and confirmed the date day of. As for the text game, I basically only texted for logistics, so it was impossible for me to come across as needy or put my foot in my mouth. It worked like a charm, and she showed up for the date.

I pull up in the parking lot, and call her on the phone right before our date. Over the phone, she already sounds very flirty and feminine, which is a very good sign. I tell her I’m about to pull up, see her car, and tease her about having a front headlight out.

We had decided to meet at 9 PM. So she enters the first bar that I chose for the date. I greet her, and sit beside her so that it’s easier for me to kino her. I make sure that I’m making extremely strong eye contact the whole time.

The conversation is pretty damn effortless. Because she’s one of those artsy chicks, it’s really easy to hold a conversation, and maintain the baseline. While we talk, I’m making sure to throw in some attraction spikes, or plotline, so that the date doesn’t become platonic. Nothing worse than a platonic date. A strategy I like to use is to keep a handful of attraction spiking lines in my head that I’ll use on the date. That way, it’s impossible to have a bland, platonic date. I would say I did a good job of making this date not platonic though: through touching, teasing, strong eye contact, and flirty lines/statements of intent.

I start gradually kinoing her throughout the interaction. I also seed the pull by saying, “I just moved into a new spot and they have an awesome game room. We should play some pool or ping pong at some point. Are you good at either?”

She responds by saying: “I’m terrible at both, but that does sound like a lot of fun. I’d be down!”

I ask if she has a curfew. She laughs and responds “Nah, I’m good. I can stay out pretty late.” So I say something along the lines of “We should go on a little adventure” and we hop to another bar to drink some more beer.

Now, a mistake that I notice I made here was, not leading. We were kind of just walking around outside the bar, and we ended up taking her car because it was closer. I should’ve been in the drivers seat(both literally and figuratively.)

This was a karaoke bar with a nice vibe to it. We go in, and order a couple drinks. We actually end up sitting inside because the music is so damn loud. We drink beer, and play a round of cards. We’re having a good time, and the conversation is still good. I’m still inserting plotline by kinoing and inserting Statements of Intent.

Once we finish our card game, I suggest that we check out the game room and kick it a bit longer(so that I can venue change to my home and attempt to close her.) She says “Oh man, I might be too tired to make it to the game room. I’m gonna have to go home and conk.” She’s literally starting to yawn at that point, and it is decently late, so I think there’s some truth to that.

We get back in her car, and she drives me back to mine. I want to kiss her at the end of the date, but it’s damn hard in the car with the console in the middle. Plus, I felt like it would’ve just felt forced. It felt like a Hail Mary at the end of the date, even with my eye contact and flirting. If I had her on the couch, it would’ve been absolutely effortless to go for the kiss and move things forward from there. So I end up just hugging her and telling her I hope she gets home safe.

While this girl seemed decently interested(the fact that she showed up on the date proves that she was somewhat interested too) I feel that I made a fair amount of mistakes.

First, I feel like I ran out of time on this date basically. Maybe I should’ve cut out the middle venue change to the second bar. I did that because I remember reading in Roosh V’s book that I should be venue changing while on my dates. I also didn’t want to push for the home venue change too too soon before I had built enough comfort. It also makes me think, how long should I be spending in each venue? I’ve had this issue before with running out of time on dates, and then the girl eventually goes home. What would help me is, literally having a time limit in my head (i.e. 30 minutes) and then think that I need to start heading that way towards the next venue or whatever.

My friend told me that I really need to at least kiss her at the end of the date. Otherwise it’s GG, or it’s wraps. He says that if you don’t see an opportune time to do it, you can use this kissing routine: Tell her “Hey, come here.” She says, “What?” Then you say “Oh, I just wanted to look at your eyes for a second.” You hold strong eye contact, and then go in for the kiss.

Although, I think it’s better to do more than just a Hail Mary kiss at the end. But that goes back to the previous issue, running out of time.

The other thing is, I’d like to establish in my mind exactly what the parameters for a successful date are. What is considered a success, and what is considered a failure? For example, if I knew in my head that a date without a kiss at the end is a fail, I might’ve went for the kiss even if it felt like a Hail Mary. Is a date that doesn’t end in sex a failure? Should I consider a date that ends with a kiss but no sex a success? (I’m not sure about that one, because I don’t consider kisses worth very much.) Should I live by the Roosh V rule of “If you don’t sleep with her on the first date, you’ll probably never see her again?” What exactly IS the definition of a successful date?

As for re-initiation, I’ll follow the @EyeBRollin rule, wait 7-9 days and then contact her for another date. Though, it could be kilt because it seems like I made a fair amount of mistakes.

This is a long post: but I wanted to make a really deep dive into how it went down so I can avoid making these mistakes again. All feedback/comments are appreciated, my boys!

 

[EyeBRollin]

Well, for starters 9 PM is too late to start a date. Even if it’s just a one off with no plan to smash. The latest I ever started a date was 8:30 pm in NYC, and that was because I had 1-2 other dates before it LOL. I used to start my dates around 7 or 7:30 pm if there is no dinner plan, or as early as 4 pm if there will be dinner. Need time to work the magic.

Also, if you’re going to multiple venues you should get the kiss close at the first venue. I always tried to kiss within 30 minutes. 45 at the latest. Just fvcking do it. Close your eyes and lean in while she’s talking. If she rejects the kiss but sticks around after it is pretty much guaranteed you will be tonguing each other down that night. I’ve been scolded by many chicks for doing this, only for them to end up in my bed by the next date.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I'm not sure what it is about teachers but they fvcking love me...all of my LTR's other than one have been with teachers. They can be quite freaky...something about letting loose after having to follow all those rules all day long

 

[BackInTheGame78]

When she said I'd be down! That was a green light to invite her back to your place after the first bar. The mistake was going to another bar after the first one instead of back to your place, IMO.

This chick was likely DTF.

I had the same thing happen to me where I didn't realize it until after that I fvcked up on a second date with the woman.

Went to this fun arcade place first and had drinks and an app while there, left there and she said "Where do you want to go? I'm down for whatever and in no rush to get home"

Instead of me inviting her back to my place which was pretty much a sure fire yes, I took her down the street to play pool. While she was all over me at the pool hall I STILL didn't offer her to come back to my place...needless to say the date ended with makeout session but I never ended up seeing her again.

I feel if a woman in her mind is giving you clues she wants you to bang her and you either don't pick up on it or don't follow through she loses attraction either because she feels you don't know how to pick up on clues and close or because she thinks you are afraid to try.

Not saying this is 100% the case in your situation but I'd put it at about 70%.

Maybe you'll see her again or maybe you won't...as Hamilton said you have to have the mindset of "I am not throwing away my shot...."

 

[MtmVaott]

She says “Oh man, I might be too tired to make it to the game room. I’m gonna have to go home and conk.”

I got the same answer a few weeks ago. She was already in my kitchen.
I didn't dare to escalate.

You took her to play cards. There's a similarity.
It was right that you didn't kiss her in the end. The spark was already out for her.

“Nah, I’m good. I can stay out pretty late.”

She told you to take things further right there.

He says that if you don’t see an opportune time to do it, you can use this kissing routine: Tell her “Hey, come here.” She says, “What?” Then you say “Oh, I just wanted to look at your eyes for a second.” You hold strong eye contact, and then go in for the kiss.

I'll remember that Another thing would be the intentional touching of her arm or hand.

 

[bat soup]

I had a date today. I want to detail it to you all, and see what I could’ve done better.

This girl was pretty cute. A redhead with very long hair. She was also an artsy chick, which is something that I’m pretty into because I tend to vibe with those chicks pretty well. She was also a teacher, one of my game goals is to close a teacher lol.

I used my standard flake prevention tactics before the date that I learned from Roosh V, and confirmed the date day of. As for the text game, I basically only texted for logistics, so it was impossible for me to come across as needy or put my foot in my mouth. It worked like a charm, and she showed up for the date.

I pull up in the parking lot, and call her on the phone right before our date. Over the phone, she already sounds very flirty and feminine, which is a very good sign. I tell her I’m about to pull up, see her car, and tease her about having a front headlight out.

We had decided to meet at 9 PM. So she enters the first bar that I chose for the date. I greet her, and sit beside her so that it’s easier for me to kino her. I make sure that I’m making extremely strong eye contact the whole time.

The conversation is pretty damn effortless. Because she’s one of those artsy chicks, it’s really easy to hold a conversation, and maintain the baseline. While we talk, I’m making sure to throw in some attraction spikes, or plotline, so that the date doesn’t become platonic. Nothing worse than a platonic date. A strategy I like to use is to keep a handful of attraction spiking lines in my head that I’ll use on the date. That way, it’s impossible to have a bland, platonic date. I would say I did a good job of making this date not platonic though: through touching, teasing, strong eye contact, and flirty lines/statements of intent.

I start gradually kinoing her throughout the interaction. I also seed the pull by saying, “I just moved into a new spot and they have an awesome game room. We should play some pool or ping pong at some point. Are you good at either?”

She responds by saying: “I’m terrible at both, but that does sound like a lot of fun. I’d be down!”

I ask if she has a curfew. She laughs and responds “Nah, I’m good. I can stay out pretty late.” So I say something along the lines of “We should go on a little adventure” and we hop to another bar to drink some more beer.

Now, a mistake that I notice I made here was, not leading. We were kind of just walking around outside the bar, and we ended up taking her car because it was closer. I should’ve been in the drivers seat(both literally and figuratively.)

This was a karaoke bar with a nice vibe to it. We go in, and order a couple drinks. We actually end up sitting inside because the music is so damn loud. We drink beer, and play a round of cards. We’re having a good time, and the conversation is still good. I’m still inserting plotline by kinoing and inserting Statements of Intent.

Once we finish our card game, I suggest that we check out the game room and kick it a bit longer(so that I can venue change to my home and attempt to close her.) She says “Oh man, I might be too tired to make it to the game room. I’m gonna have to go home and conk.” She’s literally starting to yawn at that point, and it is decently late, so I think there’s some truth to that.

We get back in her car, and she drives me back to mine. I want to kiss her at the end of the date, but it’s damn hard in the car with the console in the middle. Plus, I felt like it would’ve just felt forced. It felt like a Hail Mary at the end of the date, even with my eye contact and flirting. If I had her on the couch, it would’ve been absolutely effortless to go for the kiss and move things forward from there. So I end up just hugging her and telling her I hope she gets home safe.

While this girl seemed decently interested(the fact that she showed up on the date proves that she was somewhat interested too) I feel that I made a fair amount of mistakes.

First, I feel like I ran out of time on this date basically. Maybe I should’ve cut out the middle venue change to the second bar. I did that because I remember reading in Roosh V’s book that I should be venue changing while on my dates. I also didn’t want to push for the home venue change too too soon before I had built enough comfort. It also makes me think, how long should I be spending in each venue? I’ve had this issue before with running out of time on dates, and then the girl eventually goes home. What would help me is, literally having a time limit in my head (i.e. 30 minutes) and then think that I need to start heading that way towards the next venue or whatever.

My friend told me that I really need to at least kiss her at the end of the date. Otherwise it’s GG, or it’s wraps. He says that if you don’t see an opportune time to do it, you can use this kissing routine: Tell her “Hey, come here.” She says, “What?” Then you say “Oh, I just wanted to look at your eyes for a second.” You hold strong eye contact, and then go in for the kiss.

Although, I think it’s better to do more than just a Hail Mary kiss at the end. But that goes back to the previous issue, running out of time.

The other thing is, I’d like to establish in my mind exactly what the parameters for a successful date are. What is considered a success, and what is considered a failure? For example, if I knew in my head that a date without a kiss at the end is a fail, I might’ve went for the kiss even if it felt like a Hail Mary. Is a date that doesn’t end in sex a failure? Should I consider a date that ends with a kiss but no sex a success? (I’m not sure about that one, because I don’t consider kisses worth very much.) Should I live by the Roosh V rule of “If you don’t sleep with her on the first date, you’ll probably never see her again?” What exactly IS the definition of a successful date?

As for re-initiation, I’ll follow the @EyeBRollin rule, wait 7-9 days and then contact her for another date. Though, it could be kilt because it seems like I made a fair amount of mistakes.

This is a long post: but I wanted to make a really deep dive into how it went down so I can avoid making these mistakes again. All feedback/comments are appreciated, my boys!

I think you did pretty well and you already know what you did wrong - letting the woman lead. That generally leads to bad outcomes. It's much better if she's in your car, you take her to your place, you choose where to go and where to sit down etc etc

The other mistake you made was waiting until the end of the date for the kiss. Escalation needs to be gradual and subtle. You build up to that moment where you kiss. You can't suddenly lunge at her right at the end, whilst maybe her father or her jealous older brother watch from behind a net curtain.

 

[SW15]

Well, for starters 9 PM is too late to start a date. Even if it’s just a one off with no plan to smash. The latest I ever started a date was 8:30 pm in NYC, and that was because I had 1-2 other dates before it LOL. I used to start my dates around 7 or 7:30 pm if there is no dinner plan, or as early as 4 pm if there will be dinner. Need time to work the magic.

Also, if you’re going to multiple venues you should get the kiss close at the first venue. I always tried to kiss within 30 minutes. 45 at the latest. Just fvcking do it. Close your eyes and lean in while she’s talking. If she rejects the kiss but sticks around after it is pretty much guaranteed you will be tonguing each other down that night. I’ve been scolded by many chicks for doing this, only for them to end up in my bed by the next date.

I agree on date start times for pre-sex, early stages dates. I start time between 7-8 PM and they are drinks, no dinner dates. I've even thought about starting as early as 6:30 PM. In theory, @nicksaiz65 got away with his 9 PM start time this time because the woman was willing to stay up late. Most white collar workers with college degrees aren't willing to. If you start at 8 PM and the date is winding down at 10 PM, 10 PM is kinda late to start sex at someone's home, especially brand new, first date sex.

The other mistake you made was waiting until the end of the date for the kiss.

I am big believer is getting the kiss within an hour. @EyeBRollin tries 45 minutes. Same idea. You don't want to wait until the end. Also, if the bill for drinks comes before the kiss, you don't know if you have a fighting chance of seeing her again.

When she said I'd be down! That was a green light to invite her back to your place after the first bar. The mistake was going to another bar after the first one instead of back to your place, IMO.

This chick was likely DTF.

I agree. If she said she wasn't on a curfew, that is a good cue to suggest a home visit for sex.

 

[DonJuanjr]

While we talk, I’m making sure to throw in some attraction spikes, or plotline, so that the date doesn’t become platonic. Nothing worse than a platonic date. A strategy I like to use is to keep a handful of attraction spiking lines in my head that I’ll use on the date. That way, it’s impossible to have a bland, platonic date. I would say I did a good job of making this date not platonic though: through touching, teasing, strong eye contact, and flirty lines/statements of intent.

What are the lines you used?

 

[Steno]

As for re-initiation, I’ll follow the @EyeBRollin rule, wait 7-9 days and then contact her for another date. Though, it could be kilt because it seems like I made a fair amount of mistakes.

That is horrible advice, you are going to end up getting ghosted if you wait that long. I would follow up with the chick the next day

 

[Rainman4707]

Feel like theres a lot of RULES in there.

Advice i read was....if a girl sleeps with you on the first date, then that's all it will be. A one night stand. She wont see you again. You will be disqualified as a potential boyfriend.

Waiting 7 to 9 days to contact her is horrible advice.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Gotta go for the kiss in the car OP. Since there's isolation, you can escalate to beyond that, and at the very least, build up some sexual tension (because you're in a location where sex/quasi-sex can happen and this will turn her on, just by merely kissing her).

Also what others have said about kissing in the bar. Got to go for it, there's nothing wrong with a public make-out kiss. A line I like to use if there's no perfect opportunity is "I have something to say", and lean in like you're going to whisper something to her. Just move straight in on her lips instead of veering off to her ear.

You not only need comfort in order to invite her home, you need attraction too.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Feel like theres a lot of RULES in there.

Advice i read was....if a girl sleeps with you on the first date, then that's all it will be. A one night stand. She wont see you again. You will be disqualified as a potential boyfriend.

Waiting 7 to 9 days to contact her is horrible advice.

Nah, that's not true at all. Situations are fluid, you can't make blanket statements like that. You always assume you'll never see her again until you bang her. If you can get that out of the way on date 1 all the better. Doesn't guarantee she will continue seeing you but it tilts the odds in your favor.

If you bang her on date 1 and that's all it ends up being then I got news for you...you were only going to get one date from her anyways...you made the most of it.

I've never waited that long to contact a woman but in all honesty if she wants to see you again she will likely contact you the next day after the date. If not the interest is likely lukewarm at best.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Feel like theres a lot of RULES in there.

Advice i read was....if a girl sleeps with you on the first date, then that's all it will be. A one night stand. She wont see you again. You will be disqualified as a potential boyfriend.

Waiting 7 to 9 days to contact her is horrible advice.

A girl who sleeps with you on the first date will stick around if there's adequate comfort built up.

 

[Murk]

Feel like theres a lot of RULES in there.

Yep, I believe Nick is smart, fit, attractive and charming enough to relinquish the crutch/cage/limitations of "rules" made by middle-aged white guys for nerds with 0 hope.

You need to go on vibes and feel out these dates. Your convos aren't flirtatious or sexually driven enough. You should be having fun flirting and the kiss will come way before the date ends. That kiss is important, it says you're both attracted and you're not wasting time being insecure, you feel x, you let her know you feel x, if you kiss she feels x. You're falling into a trap of thinking game and rules lead you to the date to being with.

"Oh I kept texting to a minimal just logistics, it worked because she turned up", wrong, she turned up because she found you attractive with enough potential and you didn't creep her out in the meantime.

Just be yourself, the mindset is that she is on the date so sex is on the cards, act as such. I would have plied her with drink and asked if/why she likes black guys and segued into highly sexually charged chat and playful banter. I would have barebacked this redheaded hoe, she showed so much compliance, you just lack the killer instinct (be bold).

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Yep, I believe Nick is smart, fit, attractive and charming enough to relinquish the crutch/cage/limitations of "rules" made by middle-aged white guys for nerds with 0 hope.

You need to go on vibes and feel out these dates. Your convos aren't flirtatious or sexually driven enough. You should be having fun flirting and the kiss will come way before the date ends. That kiss is important, it says you're both attracted and you're not wasting time being insecure, you feel x, you let her know you feel x, if you kiss she feels x. You're falling into a trap of thinking game and rules lead you to the date to being with.

"Oh I kept texting to a minimal just logistics, it worked because she turned up", wrong, she turned up because she found you attractive with enough potential and you didn't creep her out in the meantime.

Just be yourself, the mindset is that she is on the date so sex is on the cards, act as such. I would have plied her with drink and asked if/why she likes black guys and segued into highly sexually charged chat and playful banter. I would have barebacked this redheaded hoe, she showed so much compliance, you just lack the killer instinct (be bold).

Rules are meant for new people to use because they don't know any better. Like training wheels for a bike. They are not meant to be applied rigidly as you progress. They are guidelines that are meant to be fluidly applied based on the situation. Too many guys don't get this and then wonder why they aren't progressing.

It's because your strict adherence to these rules after a period of time is slowing down your progress. Just like if you were trying to progress on riding your bike faster but it still has training wheels on. You have to remove those training wheels first to be able to progress further.

Focus on what actually works for you rather than rules and you'll be a lot more successful

 

[Stoic]

Not bad Nick.

I think it is better to go for the kiss mid date when you are vibing for a number of reasons.

One, it can save a lot of time. It tells you where you and her stand.

Two, if you kiss earlier on the date, it's easier to go for more at the tail end of the date.

Third, If she does not kiss you mid date when you are vibing, it isn't any more likely that she will kiss you at the end of the date. So, kissing mid date is not really a gamble. It's a good risk/reward trade off.

One other thing that is easy for me to pull off that you may want to try. I am a normal, socially adept guy. But, I always carry around a persona that I am a little bit of a bad (but good natured), shameless, horny guy that does what he wants. This is easy to pull off because it's congruent with me and its true! And if I get caught going a little too far (grabbing, kissing, smacking her butt), and she gives me a playful look, I say something like..."I know, I am so bad, I can't help myself." So, its a little brazen and she starts to get more used to it and has fun with it. Is it juvenile for me to do at 39 years old? Yes. Does it work? Often times, it does!

 

[DonJuanjr]

Rules are meant for new people to use because they don't know any better. Like training wheels for a bike. They are not meant to be applied rigidly as you progress. They are guidelines that are meant to be fluidly applied based on the situation. Too many guys don't get this and then wonder why they aren't progressing.

It's because your strict adherence to these rules after a period of time is slowing down your progress. Just like if you were trying to progress on riding your bike faster but it still has training wheels on. You have to remove those training wheels first to be able to progress further.

Focus on what actually works for you rather than rules and you'll be a lot more successful

At what point should the rules not be followed like dogma?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

At what point should the rules not be followed like dogma?

Depends on the individual. When you start having enough success and things begin to change you can slowly start building in fluidity.

Eventually you'll realize those rules probably cost you just as many lays as they got you.

 

[Murk]

Rules are meant for new people to use because they don't know any better. Like training wheels for a bike. They are not meant to be applied rigidly as you progress. They are guidelines that are meant to be fluidly applied based on the situation. Too many guys don't get this and then wonder why they aren't progressing.

It's because your strict adherence to these rules after a period of time is slowing down your progress. Just like if you were trying to progress on riding your bike faster but it still has training wheels on. You have to remove those training wheels first to be able to progress further.

Focus on what actually works for you rather than rules and you'll be a lot more successful

That's my point, when Nick joined he needed the rules and structure, now I feel strictly adhering to certain things will hinder him

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I had a date today. I want to detail it to you all, and see what I could’ve done better.

This girl was pretty cute. A redhead with very long hair. She was also an artsy chick, which is something that I’m pretty into because I tend to vibe with those chicks pretty well. She was also a teacher, one of my game goals is to close a teacher lol.

I used my standard flake prevention tactics before the date that I learned from Roosh V, and confirmed the date day of. As for the text game, I basically only texted for logistics, so it was impossible for me to come across as needy or put my foot in my mouth. It worked like a charm, and she showed up for the date.

I pull up in the parking lot, and call her on the phone right before our date. Over the phone, she already sounds very flirty and feminine, which is a very good sign. I tell her I’m about to pull up, see her car, and tease her about having a front headlight out.

We had decided to meet at 9 PM. So she enters the first bar that I chose for the date. I greet her, and sit beside her so that it’s easier for me to kino her. I make sure that I’m making extremely strong eye contact the whole time.

The conversation is pretty damn effortless. Because she’s one of those artsy chicks, it’s really easy to hold a conversation, and maintain the baseline. While we talk, I’m making sure to throw in some attraction spikes, or plotline, so that the date doesn’t become platonic. Nothing worse than a platonic date. A strategy I like to use is to keep a handful of attraction spiking lines in my head that I’ll use on the date. That way, it’s impossible to have a bland, platonic date. I would say I did a good job of making this date not platonic though: through touching, teasing, strong eye contact, and flirty lines/statements of intent.

I start gradually kinoing her throughout the interaction. I also seed the pull by saying, “I just moved into a new spot and they have an awesome game room. We should play some pool or ping pong at some point. Are you good at either?”

She responds by saying: “I’m terrible at both, but that does sound like a lot of fun. I’d be down!”

I ask if she has a curfew. She laughs and responds “Nah, I’m good. I can stay out pretty late.” So I say something along the lines of “We should go on a little adventure” and we hop to another bar to drink some more beer.

Now, a mistake that I notice I made here was, not leading. We were kind of just walking around outside the bar, and we ended up taking her car because it was closer. I should’ve been in the drivers seat(both literally and figuratively.)

This was a karaoke bar with a nice vibe to it. We go in, and order a couple drinks. We actually end up sitting inside because the music is so damn loud. We drink beer, and play a round of cards. We’re having a good time, and the conversation is still good. I’m still inserting plotline by kinoing and inserting Statements of Intent.

Once we finish our card game, I suggest that we check out the game room and kick it a bit longer(so that I can venue change to my home and attempt to close her.) She says “Oh man, I might be too tired to make it to the game room. I’m gonna have to go home and conk.” She’s literally starting to yawn at that point, and it is decently late, so I think there’s some truth to that.

We get back in her car, and she drives me back to mine. I want to kiss her at the end of the date, but it’s damn hard in the car with the console in the middle. Plus, I felt like it would’ve just felt forced. It felt like a Hail Mary at the end of the date, even with my eye contact and flirting. If I had her on the couch, it would’ve been absolutely effortless to go for the kiss and move things forward from there. So I end up just hugging her and telling her I hope she gets home safe.

While this girl seemed decently interested(the fact that she showed up on the date proves that she was somewhat interested too) I feel that I made a fair amount of mistakes.

First, I feel like I ran out of time on this date basically. Maybe I should’ve cut out the middle venue change to the second bar. I did that because I remember reading in Roosh V’s book that I should be venue changing while on my dates. I also didn’t want to push for the home venue change too too soon before I had built enough comfort. It also makes me think, how long should I be spending in each venue? I’ve had this issue before with running out of time on dates, and then the girl eventually goes home. What would help me is, literally having a time limit in my head (i.e. 30 minutes) and then think that I need to start heading that way towards the next venue or whatever.

My friend told me that I really need to at least kiss her at the end of the date. Otherwise it’s GG, or it’s wraps. He says that if you don’t see an opportune time to do it, you can use this kissing routine: Tell her “Hey, come here.” She says, “What?” Then you say “Oh, I just wanted to look at your eyes for a second.” You hold strong eye contact, and then go in for the kiss.

Although, I think it’s better to do more than just a Hail Mary kiss at the end. But that goes back to the previous issue, running out of time.

The other thing is, I’d like to establish in my mind exactly what the parameters for a successful date are. What is considered a success, and what is considered a failure? For example, if I knew in my head that a date without a kiss at the end is a fail, I might’ve went for the kiss even if it felt like a Hail Mary. Is a date that doesn’t end in sex a failure? Should I consider a date that ends with a kiss but no sex a success? (I’m not sure about that one, because I don’t consider kisses worth very much.) Should I live by the Roosh V rule of “If you don’t sleep with her on the first date, you’ll probably never see her again?” What exactly IS the definition of a successful date?

As for re-initiation, I’ll follow the @EyeBRollin rule, wait 7-9 days and then contact her for another date. Though, it could be kilt because it seems like I made a fair amount of mistakes.

This is a long post: but I wanted to make a really deep dive into how it went down so I can avoid making these mistakes again. All feedback/comments are appreciated, my boys!

Dude. WTF were you doing playing cards on a first date? You can't be serious with that one.

Take your cards and throw them out...this is NOT a date activity.

No wonder why she bailed. Chick was DTF and you are playing cards with her