Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

[guru1000]

Guru i have nothing against you. The Energy it would take for me to go to kindergarten mode with a random internet guy I never met before doesn’t exist in my psyche, lol. I’m sorry you are offended that I mentioned you came to me asking about your sticking points.

I didn’t know your ego would react like this, lol. I assumed you were egoless. Actually if I am completely honest, I purposely tried to rub your ego the wrong way just to see if what you claim about being egoless was true or not, lol. I knew you had a lot of pride in your game.

If you want to debate about the topic on hand - which is initiative vs compliance, I would be more than happy to do so as I’ve shown throughout this thread.

As far as being emotional and taking things personal, it doesn’t really exist within me. I don’t hate you or despise you or feel anyway really to engage in that type of dialogue. I think you’ve mistaken me for your arch nemesis @Spaz, lol

I think he would be more than happy to tangle with you.

Honestly I think it’s flattering I’m made out to be such a big deal that people feel the need to “expose” me, lol. Grown men with jobs feel the need to exert that much energy.

Unfortunately I don’t feel the same way about anybody on this forum to engage in that. If it requires more than 1% of my brain cells and feels like work, I’m not interested.

I have no ego invested in this forum. Believe it or not, my long ass posts are completely effortless. You can start and dedicate a thread to expose me and it will make no difference. My presence will still rise to the top and my message will be delivered. That’s how I’ve always been my entire life. I usually become the tallest branch without trying and people try to cut me down to size.

But enough of this back and forth. Why don’t you give us your stance on the subject and I’ll see what frame you are coming from.

Is it better that women initiate or comply?

You called my name forth once again so I can only interpret you needed something from me. You also did the same various times when you were allegedly drunk--which I left alone. You certainly did not come in truth in that statement as I never came to you regarding anything other than a discussion that we Both had regarding Egoless Love over several months which ultimately ended in you cursing me out when we disagreed lol

So you prompt me to enter this thread and then when I enter, say that I am offended by a false statement that you made?

As to the subject matter of the thread: yes it is Better when a woman initiates and complies. She must always comply (otherwise I am no longer giving her value). However, it is irrelevant to me whether she initiates (before and during the courting phase). I hold no fear of rejection as I am not asking anything from her that she can reject. If a girl's energy attracts me, then I will bless her with my value. The subject of who initiates is of no consequence. No rejection can occur nor is thought about because I am simply giving her value, the same manner an anonymous donator would donate with the spirit of giving to an institution.

These days, unlike my previous, I strive to governed by one rule: Complete Authenticity. IF I am attracted to something, I will provide value to IT/HIM/HER as the attraction was there to begin with and so not to act upon that attraction would only betray my own energy. The distinction here is my attraction prompts my intent to Give value, as opposed to taking/stripping value via some unilateral gain for me alone.

Nonetheless, the above is only my theoretical position. Not what I actually practice. I don't practice approaching women in any avenue whether OLD, socially, or in person because my plate is always full. But I do understand that my position is not likely the position of many who frequent the forum. Many here simply do not have the physical, financial or social faculties YET to meet attractive women easily and effortlessly. Many here would be shunned in social circles. Many here would have zero options if they failed to take the initiative of any kind. So for their benefit, I lay out a theoretical position as if I sat in their shoes.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ah. Well Storm actually being da dynamically explains a great deal. Like guru I ignored numerous drunken attempts to engage. The initiation of those conversations by him still exist in my in box from a couple years ago.

And thusly I am pleased to be on his Ignore list. Good deal.

Now back to the thread:

 

[fastlife]

Cool, now that this thread is back onto productive footing let me throw in my 2 cents. For the record @stormrider, I agree with 90% of everything you write--which is why I take the time to challenge the 10% I disagree with. And the reason I do that is because I'm specifically interested in guys like @nicksaiz65 having access to the same resources that helped me.

Obviously, it's up to every man to form his own views of life from his experiences--I've never hung with PUAs, can count on one hand the number of guys I've met who I suspected were PUAs. So obviously I haven't seen the downsides or those risks. But I think the value of any tool set can't be judged by what some people have or haven't done with them.

Okay so what you are saying is that a guy Who is a newbie should be damn near enlightened, come from the place of total abundance, and have supernatural inner game and take initiative because he is authentically giving value and there is no rejection? How is a newbie going to pull this off?

I agree that this is possible. I’ve done it. But I have actual abundance and not pseudo abundance. If I was ugly and had no options, I don’t see any way I can pull off this state.

@nicksaiz65 is 22 with like 5 girls (if I remember correctly). He's not some hopeless hard case. He's obviously very motivated and probably only needs a few minor adjustments to get to where he needs to be.

So how is a guy like @nicksaiz65 going to pull this off? He said so himself that he approaches with a mask on and no longer knows how to be authentic. And now he’s afraid of doing campus approaches because he doesn’t want to blow himself out of the entire social environment. Some would tell him to do night/meat market game but he had 100% flakes from that and his self esteem is starting to suffer.

Would you agree that @nicksaiz65 doesn't have enough real world experience to even know what is authentic to him vs. what's been conditioned into him from his parents, from his school, from society? No guy fully knows who he is at 22. The reason I advocate approaching is because 1.) Sex will never be more important to him than it is RIGHT NOW. 2.) The sooner he learns how to cope with rejection and not base his internal value off of reactions, the more equipped he'll be to handle every area of his life. 3.) Guys that age make dumbazz decisions that will affect their long-term life trajectories off of a place of scarcity.

When I was 24--after a failed and extremely misguided attempt at monogamy--the only reason I was able to take the necessary risks and have the time to make the investments in my future that are paying off at 28 is because I got enough experience to realize that I could generate sexual options independent of lifestyle, career, and basically anything else. That let me make short-term sacrifices and to work on a vision for my future that was 100% based off of what I wanted vs. something I did in a misguided attempt to get laid.

And for the record, when I started learning game it was specifically because the social circle (environments--whatever you want to call them) that I had relied on and invested so much time into were full of girls who had already peaked and guys who were settling into what society told them to settle into. I was 24 when I fvcked the last girl I wanted to from any of my social environments (and I had way too many friends )--and the prospect of anything else coming my way was slim.

How would a guy like him develop a frame of a value giver and approach women with no signs of interest and be completely unreactive to women’s reactions?

If we were taking bets, I’d bet the house it would take him 10 years +.

Disagree. From where he is now, with the right mindsets, it should take him maybe 6-12 months to start having enough results to realize that girls aren't all that special and that he has enough value to get what he wants. By his mid-20s he'll have this out of his system and will have the skillset to where he can go out for one night and generate enough good options to last him for a month.

When I look at guys my age who are still single, most of the ones I know have good jobs, take care of their appearance, have lives--and then feel like something is wrong with them personally because they did everything right and the universe isn't putting girls in their lives. When they do meet girls they don't know how to vibe, they don't know how to keep a convo going, they don't have enough ability to generate options not to get all sad when things don't swing their way. Like, I can go out and bring girls to them and they still fvck it up and think I have some magical superpower.

Wouldn’t a better framework be “approach on signs of interest. Wait for women to initiate so that you don’t completely blow yourself out of every social environment?”

The argument could be “well he’s too ugly to get iois. If he waits, he’d wait forever.”

To which I would say he should continue to work on himself to the point where women do initiate.

I’m not saying one is better than the other. Whether he goes the self improvement route, or develop super natural inner game (I don’t see how he can do this), both routes are akin to climbing mountains.

That’s why my stance is self improvement and achieving ones full potential until women initiate.

Even if he works on his game, it would take him 10 years. But within those 10 years he could be building up his value in life.

We all know that men peak in our 30s and 40s. A guy putting women aside to work on himself isn’t going to miss out on anything.

Again, nothing I've ever advised Nick to do or look into advocates blowing himself out in his social environments. But if your subcomms aren't so ingrained that they're visibly evident, then you're simply not gonna get that many IOIs. But if you tell a guy to talk with breaking-rapport tonality and laser eye contact and suddenly he starts getting IOIs and investment from girls who might not have noticed him before, then that gives his brain proof that his lack of results has more to do with how he carries himself than any part of his fundamental person, so to speak.

Sure, he'll still get rejected. He's not strong enough in his sense of self to not slip into incongruence or to have lapses in frame--and girls WILL sh1t test him on those. But it's all fine and good for me, you, and @guru1000 to carry on about how we almost never get sh1t tested or girls open us--but that probably won't be @nicksaiz65's experience until he grows in his sense of self and works on presenting his value effectively.

However, let’s examine the opposite. The Pua community is full of disillusioned fvckboys. They always say the same thing. “Women aren’t sh1t. I should have just worked on myself. I can’t believe I spent 10 years chasing after the validation of children.”

Again, can't speak on that. It's not something I've personally experienced firsthand. Most guys I go out with end up settling down within a year or two. I guess some guys probably do get addicted to the validation or don't internalize their value. In my personal experience, once I got what I needed getting girls wasn't a big deal or something that required much time or effort. The only reason I still come back here is to pay it forward.

Also as far as wavelength or demographic, guys tend to rationalize whatever results they're getting as the best possible result. I know I did. I think a guy has to be with probably 10-20 girls before he can be honest with himself about what he likes, what he doesn't, what he'll tolerate, and what he won't. Like with 22 y/o me, I more or less followed your advice to a T: I had great social circles with plenty of girls and I just sat back and invested in the ones who showed interest in me. I picked what I perceived as the 'best' one (i.e. the hottest one who put in the most work to earn my commitment). And I came very, very close to ruining my life.

A couple years later and I was consistently hooking up with girls who were just as hot as her with far fewer emotional issues. And I did that by going out and meeting them. That's why I push back in threads like these--and from what you've written, probably why you push back on what I advocate. The reason I address you and not your fan club is because, like I said, most of your advice is solid. Whereas with a lot of these other cats I have never seen anything (and maybe I miss it cause I'm hardly ever on here) that remotely convinces me they've ever done sh1t. It's also funny that everyone throws these labels at me and makes all these assumptions but it is what it is.

I think I've written enough here that guys can start to decide for themselves and at least have options to explore multiple solutions.

 

[samspade]

Wouldn’t a better framework be “approach on signs of interest. Wait for women to initiate so that you don’t completely blow yourself out of every social environment?”

This is operating out of fear. Again, not discounting what you've been saying about social circle game and IOIs. But a man just cannot be worried about blowing himself out of every social environment. Who cares?? (Within reason, like not getting the bum's rush.)

The argument could be “well he’s too ugly to get iois. If he waits, he’d wait forever.”

I don't think anyone suggested a man would be too ugly. But there's just no point in waiting to interact with women. You can work on yourself, your social dynamics, your career, your health, etc. and still talk to women in the meantime. I don't see what there is to lose. It's just like an actor should go on auditions while continuing his training in classes. He will get 100 rejections for every one part. Should he care if people thought he sucked the other 99 times? Absolutely not.

Again: In my adolescent years, I had everything: Looks, charisma, body, means, even confidence. But I still sucked with women. It's a true story and I'm all too happy to cop to it. I know your experience was different. Therein lies our disagreement, methinks.

But you write some great stuff, so this is all a tempest in a teapot.

-SS

PS: Stormrider, I just figured you were Jim Morrison.

 

[Trump]

I recommend you lighten up...you don't sound like a man who's at peace with himself sufficiently to attract women and you're going to cast doubt in the minds of readers here as well. When people see a guy posting long diatribe after long diatribe, insisting over and over again he's right, they're bound to wonder how he handles women.

Agree.

I said pretty much the same thing months ago. He got very rattled and angry and threw insults over a simple simple question I posed to him months ago. If he gets this upset from men on anonymous website, any 7/10 in his social environment would make his head spin in 11 seconds. Heck any 5/10 could.

Brutal.

 

[samspade]

Again, I am coming from the experience of having taught hundreds of newbies. If it was a socially calibrated guy, I wouldn’t tell him anything. But the average newbie can and will get banned from his own college campus. I’ve seen it happened! Lol. A bunch of chicks reported him at UCLA campus for cold approaching without iois.

I simply gave him a simple technique and his social calibration suddenly improved 150%. I told him that women are afraid of confrontation. Even when a woman likes you, she might not be emotionally ready for an approach. Especially during the day time in a setting where she’s not used to it. You will just cause cognitive dissonance and she will freeze up -even if she likes you.

In fact I’ve been in situations where bartenders had me kicked out for approaching them - only for us to be friends later down the road, and then sleeping with them! That’s how far my experience goes.

So I told the guy to turn his body away from the woman. Like to the side. If he has a dominant presence, this eases the tension. And then look at her from the corner of his eye. He will notice that she will straight up eye fvck him.

When your body is completely facing the woman and she’s not in a night club where she is already socially lubricated, and combine with your sexual intent, you could potentially scare the sh1t out of her.

He thought I was joking at first until he ran into 5-10 eye fvcks a day. Within a week he was collecting numbers and setting up dates right in the very campus he got reported from.

Fear with women doesn’t even exist in my mind, lol. If anything I compensate for women’s fears. So it looks like I am sandbagging my own confidence to the untrained eye.

In all of my experiences, women are completely in tune with social pressure, their social standing, and social setting nuances. One cannot simply be a raging bull and knock everything over. There is a time and place for everything.

They know it is their job to give you the green light. Especially in an environment where their reputation might be at risk.

Well, I'm glad I'm not a college student in the USA today, that much I know.

I agree that going berserk with approaches and other "PUA" taught stuff just makes you look desperate. Kind of like what zekko mentioned about guys going retard or whatever. That's not my style at all. I think you and I are arguing polar extremes but aren't that far off.

Though I will say, there is a time and a place for the bull in a china shop - if that's your true persona. Sometimes women love unbridled testosterone. I have a friend who does this really well, though he's mellowed over the years. But it was his natural state - not me at all.

Nevertheless, you have finally posted techniques (above). So I better understand what you're explaining now. Only took a few pages, haha.

 

[fastlife]

Thanks for the reply. Anyone that knows me knows that I only post on experience and nothing more.

Believe it or not I used to be a leader of an entire Pua lair. It is not something I am proud of.

I actually quit game altogether at my absolute peak. When I was averaging over 50 same day lays a year.

However during that time I recognized that only 5% of puas actually had any success.

Most were completely brainswahed by Pua marketing.

And that’s really what I am getting at. If I was @nicksaiz65’s personal mentor, maybe he would have a chance. But some of the stuff he’s posted from RSD has been complete cringe.

My gripe with Pua community is mostly the brainwashing and marketing. I’ve met so many puas who have had sh1t success from their so called approach game but they defend certain dogmatic principles to the death.

Some of those dogmatic principles include “women sh1t test.” There’s no such thing. Women react to you when you come across as dominant, they are not testing for dominance. They have no authority.

A lot of Pua principles are completely upside down and turns the guy into a supplicating fool.

That’s why I said it would take him 10+ years to reach any self actualization. He has to sift through all the BS along with finding his own footing.

Look no further than his posts and some of the cringe stuff he follows. He is ALREADY on his way to getting brainwashed and becoming another former Pua fvckboy, lol.

The deprogramming and cleansing from Pua propaganda itself might take 10 years, let alone learning how to interact with women.

I’ve personally seen hundreds of regretful failures. Pua is a cult. I’m not saying cold approach is, but 99% of guys refer to Pua material to learn game and all they get is a supplicating frame.

If you start of with a supplicating frame and garner thousands of experiences with it, it’s going to completely ruin you.

So I ask you @fastlife, what is the proper frame to have? I heard you speak of mindsets before. If you were to train a newbie, what mindset do you think he should be coming from?

You mentioned techniques like breaking rapport, but without the right frame, the guy is merely putting on an act.

For starters, I've cautioned him about what resources he's looking into based on 1.) What worked for me 2.) What matches up with my experiences and 3.) What's free. Sex sells and I'm sure PUA marketing stuff has set a lot of weirdos doing weird sh1t. To me, almost everything comes back to mindset. That's where I started and that's where things come back to. I've written about that stuff in-depth here:

• https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/stagnation-at-sosuave-when-frame-is-weakness.233309/
• https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/create-your-own-confidence-how-to-be-you.233590/

In the past, I've taken more than a handful of guys under my wings. These are guys who saw how I lived my life, asked me for help, and were generally solid people. So much of my work with them was just teaching them how to get in touch with how they really felt (vs. how they thought other people wanted them to feel) and how to speak and act out their truths unapologetically. None of them ever got remotely close to being too aggressive or too sexual. It was all I could do to get them to add just an ounce of that into their outward personalities lol.

But all of them were able to improve massively. My hardest case--and he was starting from a sense of inferiority and headfvckery that only the most pathetic posters in SS history can match--never pulled top shelf. Flat out. I would've had to devote my entire life to trying to work with him and that wasn't a sacrifice that I was willing to make. BUT within a couple months he could go up and talk to girls. Mostly friendly, but they liked his presence well enough--and he felt like a god lol. Just having that possibility opened up for him totally changed his perception of himself. He became a much more valued piece of the social circle where I met him. And last I saw him he seemed pretty happy, confident, and he had a girlfriend who seems like a good match. That, in my mind, is a huge win.

As far as PUA 'tactics,' things like breaking rapport and teasing girls are natural masculine behaviors. Physicality is a natural masculine behavior. Every little boy has that in him. But then school happens, church happens, parents happen, media happens. The reason guys need to practice breaking rapport is because they don't know how to do it and they've been suppressing that part of themselves. When you do it and you see that it works and that it feels 'right,' then it's less about technique and more peeling back a layer of social conditioning to get back in touch with who you are. Qualifying/disqualifying girls is an essential part of being a man. But very few guys feel enough entitlement/abundance to actively do that. But if they practice it and see it works, then it becomes their right as a man to exercise that.

Another issue is that people see the world through broken lenses. For example, when I walk into a venue I can see all kinds of green lights. Or if I talk to a girl, I can tell if she likes me (or if I should bounce) almost instantly--and I usually know why. Most guys disqualify themselves way too easily and don't even see the green lights girls are putting out there. The only reason I'm able to do that is because I exposed myself to those situations over and over. And I made situations work that shouldn't have ever worked from the lenses most people see the world through. Sure, I fvcked up and made an azz out of myself more than a handful of times. That's the benefit of the meat markets vs. practicing new behaviors with girls at work or school.

But if I'm putting my advice out there, it's important for me to match it to the audience (as much as I can through a computer screen). Like I basically go out and just say a bunch of random sh1t most of the time, break all kinds of social norms, and do a bunch of stuff that shouldn't work. Or I can go out and barely talk to anybody and still do fine. But 4 years ago, if I went out and barely talked to anybody then the only girls who were going to come up to me were the crazies. Or if I said some off the wall sh1t sometimes people would get all riled up. So I agree it's about dominance, but achieving dominance has all these little baby steps most people will have to take before it becomes anything more than a put on.

Before you can own a mindset you have to earn it. And that means testing it and having people challenge it. And maybe even having to rethink certain aspects of it. The younger you are, the easier that is. You still have time.

As far as our other disagreements, I still stand by a lot of what I've learned from my experiences that go against a lot of the SS dogmas:

• I still prefer initiating vs. having the girls initiate on me--this is something I've been through enough that I don't foresee me changing my views on what I've said about that ITT.
• I don't care about girls flaking or not texting me back--if I want a girl, then that's 100% on me. Plus, I'm a generous person and if she's too dumb to realize a good thing then I'll give her another shot if I feel like it, no sweat. I don't expect 100% of everybody to realize how awesome I am vs. a 10 min to 1 hr convo--and I've had plenty of those girls turn around. (That said, I'm usually a one or two nights guy tops--everything is very casual so she doesn't necessarily have to be a quality person, just a good time).
• I don't care that much about demographic or wavelength--I feel like there's different parts of my personality that I like to express with different types of girls. For instance, I'm not a vapid party dude, but swear to god every couple months I just want a vapid party girl to have a good time with. Sometimes I want something more medium term and I'll go for really sweet, high quality girls. So on and so on. I've had too many good times with too many different types of girls to limit myself to one flavor.
• I'm generally very live-and-let-live and laidback--I hold myself to very high standards. For the people around me? I enjoy them for who they are. If I ever decide I want to settle down and start a family then I'll judge the girl mercilessly lol. But for now, I only next girls when or if I feel like it.

 

[nicksaiz65]

@nicksaiz65

U r probably one of the few people here who has read the DJ Bible not once, not only twice but a few times.

You're also been searching for any relevant content in YouTube on how to seduce women.

You're got so many data.

You can quote so many names that I don't even know or even seducing techniques I've never tried nor heard off.

But I can tell you one thing, my results in getting laid from teens up until now far surpasses many many men.

Not only getting laid BUT being constantly admired by many many women to the point that I'm consistently invited out by women.

YET I don't know even 1% of what you know.

You are now the most professional Sosuave'er.

But yet you still struggle to get laid.

If u r to follow all those games suggested by many men here, I can almost guarantee that you will end up frustrated.

Can you not see those very men that's talking abt how great they are with their seduction techniques struggle in their 40's?

Do you want to waste ur life approaching women day in, day out, year in year out like those men and then come online to brag abt being a loser?

Yes, to me those men are losers. Sure they will say they are masculine, top of the food chain bla bla bla...

But its all lies.

If they are successful with women, why do they keep on needing to chase women constantly?

If u r the prize, don't women need to seduce you?

Different mindsets will influence ur behaviour in the real world and ultimately give you different results.

As for women choosing me vs. going after them?

Other experiences may vary, but here's what I've experienced so far in my life. If a girl shows interest in you, that's great. But I don't think that should be your only strategy, waiting on the chick to choose you. Some of the girls that I've hooked up with, I never got an IOI from them at all. I just walked up to them because I thought they were cute, and I started talking. I was able to get with them from there. If I had waited on an IOI that never would have happened.

So my answer is basically "por que no los dos" lol

 

[nicksaiz65]

You called my name forth once again so I can only interpret you needed something from me. You also did the same various times when you were allegedly drunk--which I left alone. You certainly did not come in truth in that statement as I never came to you regarding anything other than a discussion that we Both had regarding Egoless Love over several months which ultimately ended in you cursing me out when we disagreed lol

So you prompt me to enter this thread and then when I enter, say that I am offended by a false statement that you made?

As to the subject matter of the thread: yes it is Better when a woman initiates and complies. She must always comply (otherwise I am no longer giving her value). However, it is irrelevant to me whether she initiates (before and during the courting phase). I hold no fear of rejection as I am not asking anything from her that she can reject. If a girl's energy attracts me, then I will bless her with my value. The subject of who initiates is of no consequence. No rejection can occur nor is thought about because I am simply giving her value, the same manner an anonymous donator would donate with the spirit of giving to an institution.

These days, unlike my previous, I strive to governed by one rule: Complete Authenticity. IF I am attracted to something, I will provide value to IT/HIM/HER as the attraction was there to begin with and so not to act upon that attraction would only betray my own energy. The distinction here is my attraction prompts my intent to Give value, as opposed to taking/stripping value via some unilateral gain for me alone.

Nonetheless, the above is only my theoretical position. Not what I actually practice. I don't practice approaching women in any avenue whether OLD, socially, or in person because my plate is always full. But I do understand that my position is not likely the position of many who frequent the forum. Many here simply do not have the physical, financial or social faculties YET to meet attractive women easily and effortlessly. Many here would be shunned in social circles. Many here would have zero options if they failed to take the initiative of any kind. So for their benefit, I lay out a theoretical position as if I sat in their shoes.

Exactly. You have to think about the dudes who are starting from scratch. I 100% agree.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Okay so what you are saying is that a guy Who is a newbie should be damn near enlightened, come from the place of total abundance, and have supernatural inner game and take initiative because he is authentically giving value and there is no rejection? How is a newbie going to pull this off?

I agree that this is possible. I’ve done it. But I have actual abundance and not pseudo abundance. If I was ugly and had no options, I don’t see any way I can pull off this state.

So how is a guy like @nicksaiz65 going to pull this off? He said so himself that he approaches with a mask on and no longer knows how to be authentic. And now he’s afraid of doing campus approaches because he doesn’t want to blow himself out of the entire social environment. Some would tell him to do night/meat market game but he had 100% flakes from that and his self esteem is starting to suffer.

How would a guy like him develop a frame of a value giver and approach women with no signs of interest and be completely unreactive to women’s reactions?

If we were taking bets, I’d bet the house it would take him 10 years +.

Wouldn’t a better framework be “approach on signs of interest. Wait for women to initiate so that you don’t completely blow yourself out of every social environment?”

The argument could be “well he’s too ugly to get iois. If he waits, he’d wait forever.”

To which I would say he should continue to work on himself to the point where women do initiate.

I’m not saying one is better than the other. Whether he goes the self improvement route, or develop super natural inner game (I don’t see how he can do this), both routes are akin to climbing mountains.

That’s why my stance is self improvement and achieving ones full potential until women initiate.

Even if he works on his game, it would take him 10 years. But within those 10 years he could be building up his value in life.

We all know that men peak in our 30s and 40s. A guy putting women aside to work on himself isn’t going to miss out on anything.

However, let’s examine the opposite. The Pua community is full of disillusioned fvckboys. They always say the same thing. “Women aren’t sh1t. I should have just worked on myself. I can’t believe I spent 10 years chasing after the validation of children.”

I mostly disagree with this, although I do agree with some points.

I slept on it after that conversation we had about "approaching with a mask on." Now, I'm thinking, it is best to be authentic yes. But if you have to put on a mask in some situations, so be it. Everyone does it to some capacity, not just with women. Like at your job, for instance.

Bringing up Roosh again, he actually says that in Bang he used to recommend that guys put on the mask, and do the approaches. I say try to be authentic but do what you have to do to get the result. Sometimes you might need that mask.

I'm not really familiar with campus approaches, yes. But in the year I have left in school I plan on fixing that.

And that's just not true that I've had 100% flakes from NightGame. I've had a handful of Same Night Bangs, I just want more. Please don't confuse me for a hardcase newbie. I'm still technically a beginner, but not a hardcase newbie. I don't think this will take ten years. This will probably reinforce you guys narrative that I'm an intellectual, but I actually keep data on how my approaches go, how many numbers I get, how many times I close. My results are just slightly below average. With some more improvement, effort, and numbers that can be raised.

My issue is that I'm too emotionally attached to the outcome, I get frustrated at flakes, and then my frame lapses and I need advice on how to not get flaked on. Someone said to treat dealing with women like a science experiment? You're just getting data, you're completely unreactive and detached from the outcome.

I totally agree that the Self Improvement is key though. If that's what I have to do man, I'll fvcking do it. And if it does take me ten years, fine haha. I don't care, as long as I reach the destination. But I'll do everything in my power so that it doesn't take me so long. You should be Self Improving even without women in the picture imo.

For women initiating, like I said earlier, "por que no los dos?" Lol. I like it when women send you Choosing Signals. And I have had some women initiate on me. Funny how it was always after I was going hardcore on my fitness, how I dressed, my haircut, and my school. But like I said earlier, I screwed it up because my game was wackkk and I talked myself out of the pvssy lol. Absolutely clueless.

On the other hand, some of the women I hooked up with or at least made out with never initiated on me. I walked up and talked to them. If I had waited on an IOI I never would've gotten anywhere. I think @samspade and I were talking about this a while back.

Also, yes men do peak in their 30s and 40s. But I don't agree with waiting until then to try and get pvssy. How miserable would you be if everyone else in your 20s was fvcking but you? Self Improve, work on your purpose, and learn to get pvssy imo. But that's just based on what I've experienced in my life so far.

But yeah. Self Improvement is the key, it always comes back to that. It's pretty much the solution to all of your problems. I 100% endorse you on that one.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Cool, now that this thread is back onto productive footing let me throw in my 2 cents. For the record @stormrider, I agree with 90% of everything you write--which is why I take the time to challenge the 10% I disagree with. And the reason I do that is because I'm specifically interested in guys like @nicksaiz65 having access to the same resources that helped me.

Obviously, it's up to every man to form his own views of life from his experiences--I've never hung with PUAs, can count on one hand the number of guys I've met who I suspected were PUAs. So obviously I haven't seen the downsides or those risks. But I think the value of any tool set can't be judged by what some people have or haven't done with them.



@nicksaiz65 is 22 with like 5 girls (if I remember correctly). He's not some hopeless hard case. He's obviously very motivated and probably only needs a few minor adjustments to get to where he needs to be.



Would you agree that @nicksaiz65 doesn't have enough real world experience to even know what is authentic to him vs. what's been conditioned into him from his parents, from his school, from society? No guy fully knows who he is at 22. The reason I advocate approaching is because 1.) Sex will never be more important to him than it is RIGHT NOW. 2.) The sooner he learns how to cope with rejection and not base his internal value off of reactions, the more equipped he'll be to handle every area of his life. 3.) Guys that age make dumbazz decisions that will affect their long-term life trajectories off of a place of scarcity.

When I was 24--after a failed and extremely misguided attempt at monogamy--the only reason I was able to take the necessary risks and have the time to make the investments in my future that are paying off at 28 is because I got enough experience to realize that I could generate sexual options independent of lifestyle, career, and basically anything else. That let me make short-term sacrifices and to work on a vision for my future that was 100% based off of what I wanted vs. something I did in a misguided attempt to get laid.

And for the record, when I started learning game it was specifically because the social circle (environments--whatever you want to call them) that I had relied on and invested so much time into were full of girls who had already peaked and guys who were settling into what society told them to settle into. I was 24 when I fvcked the last girl I wanted to from any of my social environments (and I had way too many friends )--and the prospect of anything else coming my way was slim.



Disagree. From where he is now, with the right mindsets, it should take him maybe 6-12 months to start having enough results to realize that girls aren't all that special and that he has enough value to get what he wants. By his mid-20s he'll have this out of his system and will have the skillset to where he can go out for one night and generate enough good options to last him for a month.

When I look at guys my age who are still single, most of the ones I know have good jobs, take care of their appearance, have lives--and then feel like something is wrong with them personally because they did everything right and the universe isn't putting girls in their lives. When they do meet girls they don't know how to vibe, they don't know how to keep a convo going, they don't have enough ability to generate options not to get all sad when things don't swing their way. Like, I can go out and bring girls to them and they still fvck it up and think I have some magical superpower.



Again, nothing I've ever advised Nick to do or look into advocates blowing himself out in his social environments. But if your subcomms aren't so ingrained that they're visibly evident, then you're simply not gonna get that many IOIs. But if you tell a guy to talk with breaking-rapport tonality and laser eye contact and suddenly he starts getting IOIs and investment from girls who might not have noticed him before, then that gives his brain proof that his lack of results has more to do with how he carries himself than any part of his fundamental person, so to speak.

Sure, he'll still get rejected. He's not strong enough in his sense of self to not slip into incongruence or to have lapses in frame--and girls WILL sh1t test him on those. But it's all fine and good for me, you, and @guru1000 to carry on about how we almost never get sh1t tested or girls open us--but that probably won't be @nicksaiz65's experience until he grows in his sense of self and works on presenting his value effectively.



Again, can't speak on that. It's not something I've personally experienced firsthand. Most guys I go out with end up settling down within a year or two. I guess some guys probably do get addicted to the validation or don't internalize their value. In my personal experience, once I got what I needed getting girls wasn't a big deal or something that required much time or effort. The only reason I still come back here is to pay it forward.

Also as far as wavelength or demographic, guys tend to rationalize whatever results they're getting as the best possible result. I know I did. I think a guy has to be with probably 10-20 girls before he can be honest with himself about what he likes, what he doesn't, what he'll tolerate, and what he won't. Like with 22 y/o me, I more or less followed your advice to a T: I had great social circles with plenty of girls and I just sat back and invested in the ones who showed interest in me. I picked what I perceived as the 'best' one (i.e. the hottest one who put in the most work to earn my commitment). And I came very, very close to ruining my life.

A couple years later and I was consistently hooking up with girls who were just as hot as her with far fewer emotional issues. And I did that by going out and meeting them. That's why I push back in threads like these--and from what you've written, probably why you push back on what I advocate. The reason I address you and not your fan club is because, like I said, most of your advice is solid. Whereas with a lot of these other cats I have never seen anything (and maybe I miss it cause I'm hardly ever on here) that remotely convinces me they've ever done sh1t. It's also funny that everyone throws these labels at me and makes all these assumptions but it is what it is.

I think I've written enough here that guys can start to decide for themselves and at least have options to explore multiple solutions.

I completely agree. I don't think I really even have anything to add because this is exactly how I see it too.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Thanks for the reply. Anyone that knows me knows that I only post on experience and nothing more.

Believe it or not I used to be a leader of an entire Pua lair. It is not something I am proud of.

I actually quit game altogether at my absolute peak. When I was averaging over 50 same day lays a year.

However during that time I recognized that only 5% of puas actually had any success.

Most were completely brainswahed by Pua marketing.

And that’s really what I am getting at. If I was @nicksaiz65’s personal mentor, maybe he would have a chance. But some of the stuff he’s posted from RSD has been complete cringe.

My gripe with Pua community is mostly the brainwashing and marketing. I’ve met so many puas who have had sh1t success from their so called approach game but they defend certain dogmatic principles to the death.

Some of those dogmatic principles include “women sh1t test.” There’s no such thing. Women react to you when you come across as dominant, (The dominance trips up their inferiory complex) they are not testing for dominance. They have no authority.

A lot of Pua principles are completely upside down and turns the guy into a supplicating tool.

That’s why I said it would take him 10+ years to reach any self actualization. He has to sift through all the BS along with finding his own footing.

Look no further than his posts and some of the cringe stuff he follows. He is ALREADY on his way to getting brainwashed and becoming another former Pua fvckboy, lol.

The deprogramming and cleansing from Pua propaganda itself might take 10 years, let alone learning how to interact with women.

I’ve personally seen hundreds of regretful failures. Pua is a cult. I’m not saying cold approach is, but 99% of guys refer to Pua material to learn game and all they get is a supplicating frame.

If you start off with a supplicating frame and garner thousands of experiences with it, it’s going to completely ruin you.

So I ask you @fastlife, what is the proper frame to have? I heard you speak of mindsets before. If you were to train a newbie, what mindset do you think he should be coming from?

You mentioned techniques like breaking rapport, but without the right frame, the guy is merely putting on an act.

Can you go into more detail on what you mean by brainwashing?

I can see what you're saying about the RSD Bootcamps. I could see that happening lol. Also, it's a Numbers Game, right? Maybe a student would have to talk to 50 women to get a Bang lol.

But I still think their videos are solid. At the end of the day, it's just saying "Have confidence self improve talk to women, right?" Was this 50 Lays a year when you were still a fan of them? Out of curiosity.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I'm still curious as to why you quit the game if you were getting results? What's your end goal?

Where you quit, would be my "finish line" with women tbh. I consider the purpose a completely separate thing. But if I could bang 50 women a year, and I was set in my purpose/hobbies what else do you need? Maybe others have different goals but that's pretty much my End Game. Be good in my purpose and be able to Bang a lot with consistency.

And if you got there with Game, then that shows it works right?

Remember how I said women would initiate on me but then I'd **** it up? After that, I started watching Game videos and reading books to find out where the hell I went wrong. And THEN I was able to fvck a handful of girls. Cause I wasn't being a moron about it with no Game lol. Of course I'm not satisfied yet. But that's why I'm out here still making threads and trying sh*t out. That's what really legitimizes Game in my head for me.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Again, I am coming from the experience of having taught hundreds of newbies. If it was a socially calibrated guy, I wouldn’t tell him anything. But the average newbie can and will get banned from his own college campus. I’ve seen it happened! Lol. A bunch of chicks reported him at UCLA campus for cold approaching without iois.

I simply gave him a simple technique and his social calibration suddenly improved 150%. I told him that women are afraid of confrontation. Even when a woman likes you, she might not be emotionally ready for an approach. Especially during the day time in a setting where she’s not used to it. You will just cause cognitive dissonance and she will freeze up -even if she likes you.

In fact I’ve been in situations where bartenders had me kicked out for approaching them - only for us to be friends later down the road, and then sleeping with them! That’s how far my experience goes.

So I told the guy to turn his body away from the woman. Like to the side. If he has a dominant presence, this eases the tension. And then look at her from the corner of his eye. He will notice that she will straight up eye fvck him.

When your body is completely facing the woman and she’s not in a night club where she is already socially lubricated, and combine with your sexual intent, you could potentially scare the sh1t out of her.

He thought I was joking at first until he ran into 5-10 eye fvcks a day. Within a week he was collecting numbers and setting up dates right in the very campus he got reported from.

Fear with women doesn’t even exist in my mind, lol. If anything I compensate for women’s fears. So it looks like I am sandbagging my own confidence to the untrained eye.

In all of my experiences, women are completely in tune with social pressure, their social standing, and social setting nuances. One cannot simply be a raging bull and knock everything over. There is a time and place for everything.

They know it is their job to give you the green light. Especially in an environment where their reputation might be at risk.

That's a nice tip. I'll have to keep that in mind. I'm gonna meet women in my social environment like you said: it's kinda crazy that I haven't yet. To be real, I honestly enjoy meeting women more in the day than in loud ass night clubs.

I like a lot of what you post. I just disagree on your stance with PUA and approaching, based on my own life experiences. I can tell you right now if it wasn't for that stuff I would be a virgin at 22. Guaranteed lol. That's part of the reason I like that stuff so much. I'm gonna quote Roosh again, becuase my experience kind of mirrors his:

"I was so clueless that you could've put a naked woman on top of me and I wouldn't have known what to do."

That's how I felt. And Game alleviates that imo.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Well, I'm glad I'm not a college student in the USA today, that much I know.

I agree that going berserk with approaches and other "PUA" taught stuff just makes you look desperate. Kind of like what zekko mentioned about guys going retard or whatever. That's not my style at all. I think you and I are arguing polar extremes but aren't that far off.

Though I will say, there is a time and a place for the bull in a china shop - if that's your true persona. Sometimes women love unbridled testosterone. I have a friend who does this really well, though he's mellowed over the years. But it was his natural state - not me at all.

Nevertheless, you have finally posted techniques (above). So I better understand what you're explaining now. Only took a few pages, haha.

The question is, where is that line? And how do you know when you're crossing it? I know that isn't an issue if you wait on IOIs. But once again I agree more with @fastlife and @samspade on this one. You're not always going to get an IOI from a girl that you're interested in. My experience is limited, but I'm 100% sure that they've both hooked up with girls that didn't send them IOIs.

 

[nicksaiz65]

I see. I can respect your disagreements. In my journal I mentioned that my “wavelength” is an entire city -Atlantic City. So I think just like with “social environment”, people may think my version of it is a lot smaller than what is in my mind.

I’m not an intellectual so I just throw out catch phrases that may or may not resonate with people. I’ve noticed that with some people they understand exactly what I mean. And with others, I would have to explain myself further and break down my entire psyche. But I guess that comes with the territory of preaching.

For example, I see that you say you are the carefree live and let live type so is open to all women. I would say that in itself can be a wavelength. Some guys are born to be that way. It is inherent in their personalities.

Yeah. I do agree with you on wavelength dude. Just like Roosh said, find girls who like you for you. My only counterargument is if what if you're only trying to get your numbers up, and you want to fvck a girl who isn't on your "wavelength" at all? That's where you'd have to use your "mask" as Roosh says.

 

[nicksaiz65]

For starters, I've cautioned him about what resources he's looking into based on 1.) What worked for me 2.) What matches up with my experiences and 3.) What's free. Sex sells and I'm sure PUA marketing stuff has set a lot of weirdos doing weird sh1t. To me, almost everything comes back to mindset. That's where I started and that's where things come back to. I've written about that stuff in-depth here:

• https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/stagnation-at-sosuave-when-frame-is-weakness.233309/
• https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/create-your-own-confidence-how-to-be-you.233590/

In the past, I've taken more than a handful of guys under my wings. These are guys who saw how I lived my life, asked me for help, and were generally solid people. So much of my work with them was just teaching them how to get in touch with how they really felt (vs. how they thought other people wanted them to feel) and how to speak and act out their truths unapologetically. None of them ever got remotely close to being too aggressive or too sexual. It was all I could do to get them to add just an ounce of that into their outward personalities lol.

But all of them were able to improve massively. My hardest case--and he was starting from a sense of inferiority and headfvckery that only the most pathetic posters in SS history can match--never pulled top shelf. Flat out. I would've had to devote my entire life to trying to work with him and that wasn't a sacrifice that I was willing to make. BUT within a couple months he could go up and talk to girls. Mostly friendly, but they liked his presence well enough--and he felt like a god lol. Just having that possibility opened up for him totally changed his perception of himself. He became a much more valued piece of the social circle where I met him. And last I saw him he seemed pretty happy, confident, and he had a girlfriend who seems like a good match. That, in my mind, is a huge win.

As far as PUA 'tactics,' things like breaking rapport and teasing girls are natural masculine behaviors. Physicality is a natural masculine behavior. Every little boy has that in him. But then school happens, church happens, parents happen, media happens. The reason guys need to practice breaking rapport is because they don't know how to do it and they've been suppressing that part of themselves. When you do it and you see that it works and that it feels 'right,' then it's less about technique and more peeling back a layer of social conditioning to get back in touch with who you are. Qualifying/disqualifying girls is an essential part of being a man. But very few guys feel enough entitlement/abundance to actively do that. But if they practice it and see it works, then it becomes their right as a man to exercise that.

Another issue is that people see the world through broken lenses. For example, when I walk into a venue I can see all kinds of green lights. Or if I talk to a girl, I can tell if she likes me (or if I should bounce) almost instantly--and I usually know why. Most guys disqualify themselves way too easily and don't even see the green lights girls are putting out there. The only reason I'm able to do that is because I exposed myself to those situations over and over. And I made situations work that shouldn't have ever worked from the lenses most people see the world through. Sure, I fvcked up and made an azz out of myself more than a handful of times. That's the benefit of the meat markets vs. practicing new behaviors with girls at work or school.

But if I'm putting my advice out there, it's important for me to match it to the audience (as much as I can through a computer screen). Like I basically go out and just say a bunch of random sh1t most of the time, break all kinds of social norms, and do a bunch of stuff that shouldn't work. Or I can go out and barely talk to anybody and still do fine. But 4 years ago, if I went out and barely talked to anybody then the only girls who were going to come up to me were the crazies. Or if I said some off the wall sh1t sometimes people would get all riled up. So I agree it's about dominance, but achieving dominance has all these little baby steps most people will have to take before it becomes anything more than a put on.

Before you can own a mindset you have to earn it. And that means testing it and having people challenge it. And maybe even having to rethink certain aspects of it. The younger you are, the easier that is. You still have time.

As far as our other disagreements, I still stand by a lot of what I've learned from my experiences that go against a lot of the SS dogmas:

• I still prefer initiating vs. having the girls initiate on me--this is something I've been through enough that I don't foresee me changing my views on what I've said about that ITT.
• I don't care about girls flaking or not texting me back--if I want a girl, then that's 100% on me. Plus, I'm a generous person and if she's too dumb to realize a good thing then I'll give her another shot if I feel like it, no sweat. I don't expect 100% of everybody to realize how awesome I am vs. a 10 min to 1 hr convo--and I've had plenty of those girls turn around. (That said, I'm usually a one or two nights guy tops--everything is very casual so she doesn't necessarily have to be a quality person, just a good time).
• I don't care that much about demographic or wavelength--I feel like there's different parts of my personality that I like to express with different types of girls. For instance, I'm not a vapid party dude, but swear to god every couple months I just want a vapid party girl to have a good time with. Sometimes I want something more medium term and I'll go for really sweet, high quality girls. So on and so on. I've had too many good times with too many different types of girls to limit myself to one flavor.
• I'm generally very live-and-let-live and laidback--I hold myself to very high standards. For the people around me? I enjoy them for who they are. If I ever decide I want to settle down and start a family then I'll judge the girl mercilessly lol. But for now, I only next girls when or if I feel like it.

Once again, I completely endorse. That makes total sense.

 

[nicksaiz65]

But guys, at the end of the day, aren't these just different methods of getting to the same result? We're all just trying to get on our purpose and deal with our women issues here. Not to be flippant, and you guys know I love analysis, but I'm starting to feel like we're taking different routes to end up at the same destination lol. Maybe one isn't even superior to the other?

 

[samspade]

The question is, where is that line? And how do you know when you're crossing it? I know that isn't an issue if you wait on IOIs. But once again I agree more with @fastlife and @samspade on this one. You're not always going to get an IOI from a girl that you're interested in. My experience is limited, but I'm 100% sure that they've both hooked up with girls that didn't send them IOIs.

In your heart you'll know if you're being true to yourself and what you want. This helps you give value, because you're not faking it. You can fake confidence for a while, but not genuine enjoyment. In fact it's better to appear nervous but happy than confident but unfulfilled. This is true with almost every pursuit in life. If it feels like a chore, why bother.

And you are correct, I've had some fulfilling experiences with women who didn't send IOIs. Sometimes there was little compliance initially too. "You can give me your number." Most Sosuavers scoff at the idea of a woman saying this because they see it as losing frame, her not giving out her number on request but taking yours. But when they call and we eventually bang, it's all the same. What's there to lose? Like @guru1000 said I'm spreading value and she can take it or leave it. If she's not on my wavelength, on to the next one, they're like streetcars. "We're on to Cincinnati."

 

[Spaz]

As for women choosing me vs. going after them?

Other experiences may vary, but here's what I've experienced so far in my life. If a girl shows interest in you, that's great. But I don't think that should be your only strategy, waiting on the chick to choose you. Some of the girls that I've hooked up with, I never got an IOI from them at all. I just walked up to them because I thought they were cute, and I started talking. I was able to get with them from there. If I had waited on an IOI that never would have happened.

So my answer is basically "por que no los dos" lol

Form/flow over substance.

That's what u r learning and which is harmful for you, long term.

But I'll post further on this once I've settled in nicely back in my crib.

I'll profile each and every poster here, I'll show you their futures and also where they stand today - despite what they seem to project.

Don't worry abt them, if they dare post then they must also dare to be challenged.

After all, this is for ur benefit nick.

 

[Spaz]

This thread has turned from a rational debate among men into a circle jerk between at least two posters who are emotionally invested in wanting to be right rather than wanting to help.

I keep seeing pages upon pages of the same thing peppered with attempts to provoke, which is pretty sad. Meanwhile, @nicksaiz65 has posted one of the more rational and logical arguments, without prejudice.

Stormrider, assuming you're not the same user as Spazz, there should be no reason for you to be licking his nuts like that. I don't really read his posts anymore because he writes like a 12 year old girl and doesn't offer anything of substance; he's a troll who serves up sad attempts at insults rather than useful information and also a very weak man who would get eaten alive in any of the arenas in which I've excelled and continue to thrive.

Now earlier in the thread one of your more specious arguments was that Be Excellent agreed with me so ergo I must be wrong. This is a very irrational and feminine argument. It shows a lack of knowledge of the female mind, first of all - they don't always side with what's feminine but with what wins them favor. More importantly it's irrelevant, like blaming the president because white supremacists vote for him. You also engaged her repeatedly and then hamstered over her while I ignored her.

But the truth is if you're going to play that game, I'd rather have a woman in my corner than the two a$$ clowns you have supporting you on this thread, who not long ago vociferously defended a pedophile rapist and laid blame on children for being molested. This wasn't just one errant post but a series of posts where they dug in and held firm in their beliefs (and of course got the thread locked because they were so bonkers).

These are the guys you've been virtually making out with in this thread when you weren't posting War & Peace five times a day about how right you are. And remember I conceded that maybe you were right, but you seem bent on something other than mature, rational debate. I've ignored your straw men and attempts at soft trolling until now, because I thought it was cute that you were trying to poke everyone into fighting you and I'm not really into internet fights. I couldn't care less who thinks I'm right or wrong, it's a fukking seduction forum, not a nuclear reactor. But it appears that some men of very sound mind and happy, zen disposition agree with me, while some who traditionally supplant wild feminine emotion for logic and who are of sad, perverted morals are supporting you. Get mad if you want, I'm just reporting what happened.

I recommend you lighten up...you don't sound like a man who's at peace with himself sufficiently to attract women and you're going to cast doubt in the minds of readers here as well. When people see a guy posting long diatribe after long diatribe, insisting over and over again he's right, they're bound to wonder how he handles women.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt one final time to come at me with reason and coolness. Anything else will be dismissed summarily. Although I really don't know if I'll care anymore as this thread bores me now.

Any attempts by Spaz or anyone else to troll will continue to be deemed an act of desperate supplication to his better, henceforth and throughout the known universe.

Strange how some people ends up attacking Spaz profile picture, or the number of posts, or the number of likes, or the number of followers one has.

Now even the name Spazz.

Seems u r afraid to challenge me directly...

But don't worry, I shall use you as an example for nicksaiz65.

Supplication, indeed a worthy topic.

Everything that you've done, all those accomplishments you're mention in here, were actually done with the intent to gain females favour is it not?

From moving from the states to was it Spain just because of women?

To ur dancing lessons, just for women?

To ur taking up language lessons, just to meet women?

To approaching multiple women at multiple venues just to gain some hope that you might get some pity fvck.

I'm sure there's more.

Everything you ever did, was for women.

Perhaps you feel proud of it.

Well you certainly seem to be, even, sweet wording it to make it sound masculine.

But it was still done FOR women.

A servant gets paid to do work.

But you PAY just to do the work.

And you dare come online to teach young men to be just like you?

Do you seriously expect someone like me to keep quiet?