Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

[devilkingx2]

The funny thing is, these PUA's know that. They even came up with "It's a numbers game. Even the best of us get flaked on 90% of the time after doing 100+ approaches."

Yet they will defend their lifestyle to the death, lol. They think this is the only way. The don't know what's on the opposite side. The opposite side is that the dominant one gets to choose. Because this is so far outside their realities, they somehow have rationalized that being dominant and having abundance = feminine. Wrong. Being dominant and having abundance = power.

They would rather give WOMEN all the power. LOL.

A normal guy isn't so hot he can just stand around on his phone while the sexy ladies come up to him lol, that's why PUAs talk about cold approaching and the numbers game. If you got approached by ****able girls more than once per century you wouldn't need game.

 

[MrWood]

this thread actually went off topic.

Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

you can get many people, females, to comply with you, that is a directive action and is not a very valuable indicator interest.
when a female initiates an action towards you first, this is a very valuable indicator of interest.

 

[samspade]

It's funny how @BeExcellent cannot reply to me or you directly but "like" guys' posts who serve the feminine imperative.

Now, let me ask you guys a question.....is this behavior dominant or submissive? LOL. The very person you guys are agreeing with (beexcellent) is submissive and avoidant of tension. It's a feminine quality.

LOL. You submissives are hiding behind the shadows. Yet you want to convince me you are the dominant ones. Well then go ahead. Let me see what you've got to say.

I am here all day baby.

Your interaction with me is an ego shattering experience whether you like it or not.

I've got nothing to hide besides reality. So let's see what is true and what is not. Let's lay it all on the line. I'll even put my bank account (I will post a screen shot to my direct deposits) on the line if anyone thinks I rely on money. I make more money than most can conceive but yet I have never used it as a crutch.

Hey man...I don't know if you mean me, but really, who cares? Maybe you're right, maybe not. I don't want to convince you of anything ~ I just gave my $.02 and we disagree. Reasonable men can disagree. If you say I'm part of the "feminine imperative," or a "PUA," okay then, that's cool. You can say I'm part of the My Little Pony Brigade if you like. I can't control who likes my posts. (Maybe she's just chasing me. )

I enjoyed going back and forth with you and respect your opinion. But as far as ego is concerned, one thing I've learned is not to be ego-invested or emotionally invested in debates. We're talking about a little sliver of the red pill philosophy. It's kind of like fap vs. no fap - whatever works for the individual is what's best IMO. So I don't think you need to prove anything to anyone, least of all me. I already supposed that you made good money so posting your pay stubs would prove nothing. If you say women walk up to you and take you to the bathroom for a raw a$$ ****ing, I believe you.

My only question of your philosophy is what steps you suggest men here take to get to your level. That is, I've read a lot about your results, but I don't know if I've seen you explain how other men can apply themselves to achieve them besides building a social life/"ecosystem." I have an amazing and abundant social life that serves me well and have a great sex life, but you are right, I don't have scores of women regularly throwing themselves at me every time I walk into a room. I still have to make eye contact, converse, and be charming, which is of little cost to me because that's who I am and I don't care if they want me or not. So perhaps that's a topic for another thread but I'd be interested to know how you do things differently.

Anyway you made good points and who knows, maybe you're right. I don't know what's best for everyone, just for me. But I hope (for your sake) you aren't as agitated as you are coming across. It's just women, I don't take them that seriously. Peace.../SS

 

[samspade]

OK I'll admit. I look like a celeb in real life. My life is literally infinite validation. But what I discovered in my infinite validation is that YOU are unique, There is noone else like you. The purpose of life is to be YOU. There is no other you. And there will never be another you. What I am saying makes zero sense unless you have a total sense of sovereignty.

Now this makes sense. Believe me, I think I'm pretty amazing and I do practice the "sovereignty" philosophy which I learned from reading Harry Browne. Looks-wise, I'm no celeb but I'm happy with what I've got.

 

[BeExcellent]

OK I'll admit. I look like a celeb in real life. My life is literally infinite validation. But what I discovered in my infinite validation is that YOU are unique, There is noone else like you. The purpose of life is to be YOU. There is no other you. And there will never be another you. What I am saying makes zero sense unless you have a total sense of sovereignty.

I’ve no quarrel whatsoever with you. I agree with Sam that people should do whatever methods work well for them. I’ve already outlined my opinion (FWIW) earlier in the thread & haven’t seen a real need to contribute further.

It’s also been a very busy weekend socially for me so I’ve not had time to contribute.

Very good looking men are going to get lots of interest from women. So there will be plenty of opportunity to meet women for a very handsome man.

I date very good looking men & women can be shameless in approaching men, even if the guy is obviously already with someone. In fact the attention increases, not decreases often times when a handsome man has a date/partner/gf/wife...whatever. That dynamic is real. Other women see the physical presentation and think perhaps they can compete....

But what you said is true about each of us as an individual. We are all unique beings with a constellation of traits that are ours alone.

I’m a physically attractive woman & I know how to dress & present myself beautifully. I also know how to conduct myself socially and I’m quite likable. But there are gorgeous women everywhere. Sex has become a commodity in today’s landscape. I attract and hold the attention of highly desirable men because of who I am, and my looks and sexuality are only a small portion of who I am.

I own who I am without apology. I expect a man to recognize & appreciate what I have to offer. I expect him to show interest and take the lead.

And then I will respond in a receptive, encouraging way, which demonstrates my interest without usurping his masculinity. I will comply.

In my experience this is the dynamic that leads to rewarding relationships.

If a man doesn’t show interest? Then no worries, he’s not someone for me. And obviously I’ve got to be interested in him too. I’ve turned down celebrities, rich men, influential men etc. over the years. Not as a power thing or ego thing at all, but from a perspective of why waste a valuable man’s valuable time? Let him find someone who IS into him. Why waste my own valuable time?

If other women are bold & approach and so forth? Let them. There is a subset of great women who weren’t raised that way. And that subset often contains the best women.

Food for thought.

 

[CaptainNotSoObvious]

The bold life conquerors. NOT the bold seducers.

Why not be both?

If not, how is a random woman to know that you are a "bold life conqueror" if she just met you?

 

[BeExcellent]

It’s not black and white when it comes to showing interest. In a social circle environment (or any environment without loud distractions) there will be obvious underlying sexual tension. Even a normal conversation that looks harmless to others can be full of romantic tension. Even a little stare can go a long way. Such nuances of romance is hard to explain to these newbies online. They think the guy has to do all the work and the woman is a lifeless mannequin.

If there is chemistry, even a “Hi”can send shivers down her spine.

When two people look at each other like they KNOW the other person is valuable and serendipity found the two of them together, that’s the key right there.

From this place, it’s just a matter of being alone.

I think guys on this forum are too fixated on formulas of seduction. There is no formula. There is only natural chemistry.

And when there is natural chemistry between two people, they BOTH know it without the other having an utter a single word.

Language came into existence 50,000 years ago but humans have been mating long before that.

Anything that has to do with game or contrived seduction is waste of time.

When romance is present, words are unnecessary. And when words are necessary, then romance is not present.

See @BeExcellent, you would love it if guys on your wavelength were bold towards you. That would make your life so much easier, lol, and probably a lot more fun too. But for guys that aren’t on your wavelength, nothing they do matter.

And that’s really my point. When two people are on the same wavelength, the connection is seamless. And sure, some women wish the guy would just make a move. She might even stare a hole into his head until he gets a hint.

The secret is wavelength, not in being a bold and contrived seducer. That’s just asking for 1000 rejections and becoming disillusioned when the guy discovers no amount of manipulation can create natural chemistry.

And of course, in order for a guy to elevate his vibration and operate on a high wavelength, he needs to use his masculine energy to conquer life, not chase women. That would be a waste of his masculine gifts.

Agreed. For me from where I sit it’s a matter of being patient & waiting on that natural chemistry/connection.

At times you can get the chemistry but then the connection may not develop or exist. So they aren’t the same thing.

So I still hold the view that compliance is a better measure than initiation when it comes to interest.

 

[17 shots]

Even a little stare can go a long way. Such nuances of romance are hard to explain to these newbies online. .

This is true af. My eyes have gotten me so many lay ups, most guys just don't know how to use them, or they are not perceptive enough, idk. When I was in high school I would tell my friends whenever I saw a woman staring at them, then they would go over and get her. That's the best wingman to me, a guy that will point out the obvious targets for you. Thats real team work lol. I've even had a time when my cousin told me I walked past a woman who was staring at me in the club. I went back over there and got her number. 98% of the time tho, I don't miss ANYTHING. I'll even notice if a woman is checking me out from my perifrial

Obviously the better looking you are the more eye contact you'll get, but everyone will have these moments at some point in their lives, but if you're not paying attention you'll miss out

 

[fastlife]

So you are saying every woman that initiates on me is desperate and easy? Lol. That sounds like a cope for someone who doesn't have women seducing him and someone who doesn't have access to social networks with women (like 99% of all puas).

Nope. I'm saying that by limiting yourself to girls who chase your validation in your immediate vicinity, you'll be filtering in more of these girls than you would if you expand your reach. I'm also saying there are plenty of girls who would be receptive but who exist outside your social circle, aren't going to make the first move, and who you are automatically filtering out for no real reason.

Who is more dominant...the chaser or the chasee?? And is being dominant masculine or feminine? This is a simple question.

Whoever controls the frame. You can go into a job interview and qualify the fvck out of the company and the interviewer and flip the script to have them chasing you. It's just a matter of having value and effectively conveying it. You might even really want that job, but it doesn't make you submissive just because you apply or follow-up.

Sure, you could wait til you have a friend who has an in at another company or some recruiter contacts you, and that might make the process smoother and you might have to convey less value since you already have some going into the conversation. But that will also limit your options and lengthen the time you need to move vertically or horizontally.

Look @stormrider, we've been having this convo for years. I'm not discounting the fact that social circle is often easier. I'm not advising anyone NOT to have social circles that bring them fulfillment. I'm just saying it's unnecessarily limiting your options for NO REAL BENEFIT besides mitigating PERCEIVED downsides.

Since you brought up sales and marketing, let me put it to you this way. Pretend you're a consultant. If you're advising a start-up or an underperforming company (most guys at SS), then you would tell them to focus their efforts on outbound sales and marketing and to invest in product development (themselves). They have to generate demand--and chances are they'll have to 'chase' clients. A more established company can turn more of their attention to inbound calls. BUT even multi-billion dollar companies STILL have to be able to execute effective outbound sales and marketing to keep demand high and expand their market penetration. Advising ANYONE to eliminate any outbound marketing from their strategy limits scalability, geographic reach, and probably their duration.

If a guy hasn't been able to capitalize on the social circles they have handed to them in middle, high school, and college--which is the easiest it'll ever get social-circle wise--then just telling them to join a yoga class or a theater group and wait for girls to show interest is sh1tty advice. You can do it and I can do it, because we have our subcomms down (which is the source of the mythical 'chemistry' you like to talk about). But most guys WILL have to go out and consciously practice those and put themselves through enough situations to internalize their value and learn how to give value to the people around them, BEFORE that's practical advice.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Nope. I'm saying that by limiting yourself to girls who chase your validation in your immediate vicinity, you'll be filtering in more of these girls than you would if you expand your reach. I'm also saying there are plenty of girls who would be receptive but who exist outside your social circle, aren't going to make the first move, and who you are automatically filtering out for no real reason.



Whoever controls the frame. You can go into a job interview and qualify the fvck out of the company and the interviewer and flip the script to have them chasing you. It's just a matter of having value and effectively conveying it. You might even really want that job, but it doesn't make you submissive just because you apply or follow-up.

Sure, you could wait til you have a friend who has an in at another company or some recruiter contacts you, and that might make the process smoother and you might have to convey less value since you already have some going into the conversation. But that will also limit your options and lengthen the time you need to move vertically or horizontally.

Look @stormrider, we've been having this convo for years. I'm not discounting the fact that social circle is often easier. I'm not advising anyone NOT to have social circles that bring them fulfillment. I'm just saying it's unnecessarily limiting your options for NO REAL BENEFIT besides mitigating PERCEIVED downsides.

Since you brought up sales and marketing, let me put it to you this way. Pretend you're a consultant. If you're advising a start-up or an underperforming company (most guys at SS), then you would tell them to focus their efforts on outbound sales and marketing and to invest in product development (themselves). They have to generate demand--and chances are they'll have to 'chase' clients. A more established company can turn more of their attention to inbound calls. BUT even multi-billion dollar companies STILL have to be able to execute effective outbound sales and marketing to keep demand high and expand their market penetration. Advising ANYONE to eliminate any outbound marketing from their strategy limits scalability, geographic reach, and probably their duration.

If a guy hasn't been able to capitalize on the social circles they have handed to them in middle, high school, and college--which is the easiest it'll ever get social-circle wise--then just telling them to join a yoga class or a theater group and wait for girls to show interest is sh1tty advice. You can do it and I can do it, because we have our subcomms down (which is the source of the mythical 'chemistry' you like to talk about). But most guys WILL have to go out and consciously practice those and put themselves through enough situations to internalize their value and learn how to give value to the people around them, BEFORE that's practical advice.

I enjoy posts from both of you, but damn. You hit the nail on the head. That makes absolutely perfect sense.

 

[Trump]

So I still hold the view that compliance is a better measure than initiation when it comes to interest.

Sorry dear, but I really don’t know how you and the top players say compliance is a better measure of interest than initiation.

How easy is it for a guy to get a girl to go out with him? Very very simple.

How easy is it for a guy to get a girl to call or text you first? Very very hard. Initiating means she has to care. That is very very dangerous for her ego and social status in 2020.

I would comply with any girl right now if they initiated and wanted to do something, ANY girl.

I would never initiate with any girl. I would only initiate with a girl I wanted to sleep with.

 

[BeExcellent]

Guys who think compliance is better than women initiating are lying to themselves. That’s like saying you’d rather be a hard worker than just rich. If you had a choice, any sane person would choose abundance with least effort.

The guys who are on the compliance train do not have women initiating on them so they just cancel out that variable altogether. Worse, some guys even rationalize that women initiating is masculine and desperate in order to cope.

One can simply walk into a night club and see countless women throwing themselves at guys they are attracted to you. Go ahead and tell those guys “Hey man your women are masculine and desperate. They don’t really like you. Compliance is better” and they will straight up laugh at you as if you were a weirdo.

Normal guys who get laid in real life don’t have these weird beliefs. No sane guy is going to reject attractive women throwing themselves at him.

There’s sosuave logic. And then there is real life, lol.

But many of the women who initiate are trash. My own guy (who women throw themselves at on the regular) finds this boring. Sure he can get laid in spades if that’s what he wants. Then they cling, blow up his phone like stalkers and pester him incessantly. He can’t run away fast enough, even if they are a hot piece of ass. It’s too easy and the women are too desperate. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s meaningless after a while. And suddenly a woman who has standards and requires actual effort (but will encourage & comply) becomes far more interesting & intriguing.

I know men with ridiculous abundance. They arrive at this stance 85-90% of the time after years on the screw whoever you choose train. It gets utterly boring & meaningless after a while. But to have that viewpoint a man has to run through a ton of easy kitty.

Men who’ve never had that sort of abundance never come to really appreciate a great woman unless they are fortunate enough to find one and commit in their youth.

 

[BeExcellent]

Men who initiate are the biggest players. They figure out your imprint and say all the right words and make all the right moves. Eventually they break frame and become completely needy and text you 24/7.

You will never have to worry about that with guys who don’t chase.

You see how that works? Lol.

Trust me on this. I could give a master class on game. I’ve joked with my guy that we should teach game together. We’d make a mint.

I’m a business woman and perfectly fine to be assertive in business & professional endeavors. It doesn’t translate to dating interactions. If it worked I’d do it.

If all I wanted was to get laid...I’d do it. It’s be so very easy.

But it is unnatural and doesn’t work. Experience talking here. I’ve initiated in times past and against my better judgement. I’ve NEVER had a great relationship unless the man approached me. Sure. Guys will try and take advantage & get laid (and then get annoyed when I won’t sex them up right away)...they figure sure, if she hits me up I can get laid...but I’m not that sort of gal.

So I (and other quality women like me) will wait and see who approaches and shows masculinity and initiative and choose from those men...who make the best partners.

If you prefer women who pursue a man? You are less secure in yourself and more interested in short term & getting laid.

If you prefer compliance you are more secure, willing to lead & more interested in long term.

I have seen no exceptions to this in my experience. But strategy will vary depending on what your sexual strategy is and on your relationship goals (or non-goals), lol.

 

[BeExcellent]

Women represent 50% of any male/female interaction. So it matters what the woman thinks because she remains a human being with the ability to make choices and decisions. She has free will.

You don’t have to consider her perspective nor care of course. And that lack of caring or arrogance will reflect in your vibe.

You of all people here should know this.

You can attempt to invalidate me as in your post above. My perspective is useful to some here. Perhaps not to you and that’s fine. But your opinion isn’t the ONE opinion any more than mine is.

 

[samspade]

Guys who think compliance is better than women initiating are lying to themselves. That’s like saying you’d rather be a hard worker than just rich. If you had a choice, any sane person would choose abundance with least effort.

The guys who are on the compliance train do not have women initiating on them so they just cancel out that variable altogether. Worse, some guys even rationalize that women initiating is masculine and desperate in order to cope.

One can simply walk into a night club and see countless women throwing themselves at guys they are attracted to you. Go ahead and tell those guys “Hey man your women are masculine and desperate. They don’t really like you. Compliance is better” and they will straight up laugh at you as if you were a weirdo.

Normal guys who get laid in real life don’t have these weird beliefs. No sane guy is going to reject attractive women throwing themselves at him.

There’s sosuave logic. And then there is real life, lol.

You make a good point, of course I'd rather have women throwing themselves at me without any effort on my part. But that's not my reality generally. If it is yours, I salute you - you've achieved something great. Furthermore, most of the women who have were not my type: Ugly, fat, old, or just too forward. The last trait, yes I do equate that with masculinity.

Here's how I see it. If they're throwing themselves at you, good for you. But that does not happen for a lot of men, and I don't believe that simply joining clubs or pursuing hobbies on their own are enough for most men. Those are great starting points and good for self-development and meeting new people. But over my many adult years I've taken salsa classes, acting classes, public speaking classes, comedy classes, gone to countless foreign language meetups, professional mixers, sung karaoke who knows how many times, etc., etc. All for my own benefit. At most, the women who were interested in me through those endeavors basically hinted at it, though I think one asked me out directly. Most attractive women I've met do not put themselves out there at risk of rejection, and I consider myself an attractive all-around guy. (They might for a celebrity, but not for a mortal like me.) And when I've simply been hanging out in bars, the women who have put themselves out there were usually overweight, over the hill, or just not attractive. Those women do that because they can always rationalize that it would never have happened anyway. Attractive women are not usually this bold with me, and believe me, I've kicked myself many a time over what I later realized was a major hint. (If you are talking about hints and subcomms as initiating, then okay.) In other words, HB9:Celebrity is like HB4:SamSpade.

Remember when I asked you what steps you took to get where you are? I'd like to know, because if you're 31 then you're at a great place at a young age. I'm sure a lot of men here would like to know. But perhaps you have something like local rock star status: Very handsome, wealthy, and a fun reputation that women love. Every man should work toward building his wealth, looks, and vibe so that women are drawn to him. But for some of the guys on this site, that can take years. In the meantime I think it's silly to tell them not to approach women, especially since so many of them are fine tuning their socialization skills. It's like telling a guy not to lift weights until he can bench press 300. And telling them to build their "ecosystem" is one good step in the process, but simply appearing at an event without any other technology or information won't get them far. I showed up for high school every day but had a mostly terrible time getting action with girls.

And please, stormrider, this is not about "PUA" vs. whatever. I'm not a PUA and I don't follow the industry leaders. I don't do routines or keep an approach journal. This site is about practical information so men can socialize better with women and in general and to ask questions when they don't know what to do. Some guys are naturals and god bless 'em. But other guys are asking for help and going out there and trying and failing and trying again. Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions. My guess is that you've had a lot of great experience with very few errors, and although you know that you can attract women easily, maybe you've never analyzed why or how because you've never had to. Which is terrific, but some guys need data and feedback.

As an aside, of course most men would like to be rich too, but that's also unlikely without hard work.

Hope you see where I'm coming from here.

 

[BeExcellent]

I’m curious to know too.

My son, who enters university next year is already a sharp dressed, very handsome, fit, socially adroit young man who is the recipient of tons of female attention. I’m sure I had nothing to do with that, lol. He also leads and is ambitious and takes my counsel but makes his own decisions. He does not cow tow to me and has no qualms doing what he thinks best...he is a natural leader, well liked and well calibrated. He plans to become a military officer & pilot like his grandfather on his father’s side (who was an elite fighter pilot, AF test pilot and the kind of man men here aspire to.). He is confident, not arrogant and he listens to people with experience and weighs what is best from his perspective. He’s taken the steps and the discipline to set himself up to accomplish his aims and his purpose.

I know it’s a men’s space here. I’ve been here awhile. At times I’ve advised young men here to find a male mentor to emulate or take advice from if I don’t think I’m equipped to guide on a specific issue or at a certain growth point.

The poster who first was a catalyst for me joining the site years ago was far more arrogant than and younger than Storm. He thought a woman’s view was moot too...until he realized it wasn’t. He is becoming a great man among men. He credited his mother with nurturing him and also requiring excellence from him...she pushed him and told him the truth about the world.

I do this with my son too.

The world doesn’t care about you. It doesn’t care about me either. This is a space and place where men come to learn from one another and inspire one another based in experience.

Celebrity good looks, great wealth, status, and all that stuff confers great advantage. It is a wonderful blessing but also a double edged sword. Scores of others will seek to use people to obtain the trophy of the wealth, the status...the good looks for their own means. There are lots of users out there.

I’ve told the story of the professional male model I dated prior to marrying the nightclub owner...he was wealthy, had status, and was a gorgeous specimen of a man. Women threw themselves at him everywhere he went. He despised that. He approached me and pursued me. I liked him a great deal because he was a really good person inside the beautiful package...but he was struggling with financial matters he was too embarrassed to disclose to me, and worked extreme hours to overcome the situation. I thought he was simply a workaholic who didn’t have bandwidth for a relationship. I was wrong, but I didn’t know. At any rate I broke it off. The next man I dated was the nightclub owner who I married.

Sadly the model never felt like he found anyone after me who really liked him for HIM. All the women wanted the trophy of the money & handsome face. He was lonely inside his beautiful package and successful looking life. Despite being chased constantly by beautiful women.

He withdrew into drug culture to cope with the disconnect & eventually died of an overdose.

My point? Every blessing has a dark side lurking somewhere. Sometimes those who seem to have it easy or have it all actually do not.

Ignore me if what I have to say bothers you. I’m just a voice and a perspective. Pay no attention if it doesn’t resonate with you.

Simple.

 

[BeExcellent]

I'm not saying all women who initiate (as in approach) are trash, but many are.

We can disagree about "initiating" as a definition, sure. IOIs are not the action of initiating. Approaching is. Much of what you note in your post above I agree with, but the approach is still the masculine role that demonstrates interest and initiative.

You don't approach all women who show you IOIs, only those who appeal to you, and that is my point, no matter how dolled up and touchy as they walk by the girls get.

Once the dance formally begins, the man is the one who starts the cadence. Often the woman has indicated openness to an approach (not always) but the initial approach is still the role of the man.

 

[samspade]

That’s a pretty sensible reply. I expected nothing less from you. At least you didn’t go the “All women who initiate are complete trash” route that @fastlife and @BeExcellent took. That’s discounting that guys like me exist (you’ve all seen with your own eyes that handsome effortless men exist), and that normal/non crazy women can be seducers. I’m either hallucinating quality women flirting with me my ENTIRE LIFE or those two are straight up hating/ trying to create their own narrative to support their argument, although it isn’t based on reality.....or at least MY reality.

People have a tendency to over exaggerate what I’ve said to support their narrative. I say social environments and it gets replaced with “social circle.” Ive seen such passive aggressive intellectual dishonesty across this forum.

I’ve said it many times over and over again. Women initiate through body language and signs of interest. The guy is NEVER the initiator. In fact if you initiate without any cues from her she might think you are completely inexperienced.

This is even more important in social environments. Women have a reputation to protect. THEY dictate the pace of the seduction. A man is always ready. Is a woman always ready or do we have to wait for her to be comfortable and completely sold on us? She’s the one who gives you hints to move things move. You are not initiating anything. At best you are moving at a pace she is comfortable with.

In all of my experiences being around women, the REASON why women are more aggressive towards me is because I show zero signs that I’m going to push it. It’s because I was either at work or an environment where I didn’t want to risk my reputation. And the women knew it. They knew it would be a big risk if I did anything, so they would go out of their way to give me plausible deniability and all I had to do was accept or decline.

But make no mistake there was plenty of eye contact, equal energy exchange from both parties, incidental sexual kino, and literally swimming in sexual tension.

Coming from this place, it’s just a matter of being alone. It’s not really that hard for women to through out a bait. They are not really putting much on the line when they already know I am DTF. They are not risking anything. They know I am part of the “sex club” because of my subcommunications so there is no risk being a little aggressive.

And that leads me to my other point. Some guys had early teenage success and they develop certain subcommunications that allow ALL women to know they are the guy you sleep with on the down low.

And when I say all women, I mean all women. Married, taken, single, virgin, trash, it don’t matter. That’s why you shouldn’t listen to women on these matters. They would never admit that guys like me exist. Or they’ll admit it but try to paint their own narrative by calling me insecure or my women trash. Anything to hide the true nature of women. My entire life women have treated me with zero rules. If you’re going to say they are all trash, then I will turn around and say 99% of women are all trash regardless of their relationship status. So I guess we can agree on that, lol.

Now, not all guys grew up as naturals, I understand. Some of you guys have to be more aggressive. I won’t knock you for that, as I’ve already said a million times.

And some of you guys are completely oblivious to the underlying sexual tension between men and women so you think the guy has to do everything and the woman is just there. This is the non experience guy.

Puas think women are mannequins and guys have to push all the buttons. This is so far removed from reality, it’s not even funny.

There are even guys who say any woman who initiates is straight up needy. Again, far removed from reality.

For the one millionth time, the interaction starts before you even open your mouth.

The two of you already notice each other. And if she is interested, she will give you what is known as an ioi. Have I lost anybody yet?

Some guys can instantly cause women to throw a massively obvious ioi. And some guys get a subtle ioi. But either way, the woman is the one initiating contact.

This is when you my @samspade approaches her. As soon as you do, some women experience an attraction spike because you show her you can vibe with her subcommunications. This is the ultimate key. Read that again.

At this point she will backwards rationalize that you must be attractive because you did all the right things and vibed with her perfectly. You are on her wavelength.

It is at this point that she will have totally surrendered to you. And ONLY at this point can you lead her. It’s because shes in a state of reflex compliance. She is complying with you out of pure reflex.

She understands your ego and does not want to offend it in anyway. She picks up your frame and idiosyncrasies and adopt it as her own. In a sense, she is molding herself to you.

So yes as a man you do mold her. But it is not after you’ve perfectly vibed with her and show her that you guys are on the same wavelength.

This is why many women say “I wasn’t feeling the vibe.”

Ive myself messed up the vibe many times. There was this one time when my gut told me don’t try to force my penis inside of her, just take my time and go with the flow. But then I was like “Fvck it I’m a man. Men are aggressive” and tried to jam it in and ruined the whole sex - and relationship.

The sad part was we had perfect chemistry and were definitely on the same wavelength. But I made her pvssy dry by skipping foreplay and trying to force the issue and that was a point of no return.

I give you guys that as an example to show you it’s not all about you. Your body and her body has to be in sync.

Women give you signs to let you know when they are ready. Some guys get massive signs like me. And some guys get subtle signs.

But hey, if you guys want to act like you exist in a vacuum and she has no part in seduction, then go ahead blow yourself out from every social environment. I think I see why some guys are so against social environments. They run through it like a bull in a china shop with zero social awareness.

TLDR: I am hyper aware of the underlying vibe and women’s subcommunications. In fact I pretty much live in the world of sexual tension. So it’s not just my smv value. It’s the totality of my experience.

I used to think it was all about me. But now I know it’s the chemistry between two people.

I interact with women with my authentic baseline personality and nothing more. There’s no “game” in my consciousness. Nothing is contrived, everything flows.

Got it. I see where you are coming from and I think we were talking past each other before. For sure women through out signals and initiate in that sense, and they will throw out stronger or weaker signals depending on 1) them and 2) the guy and what he projects. I guess I always thought of initiating as opening the conversation, but certainly women will initiate with looks and verbal cues (and occasionally an opener) and a guy has to in tune with that. So maybe we were stuck in our own semantics.

That said, I don't think it hurts to teach guys to be fun and sociable anyway and start conversations regardless of cues. The key is that they do so with outcome independence, and that's where game/PUA tactics fail because it's always about "closing." In fact I advise that guys start conversations with anyone so it's not always about that. One thing @fastlife told me - I think he's a smart poster even if you two disagree - is that there will be a lot more conversations than lays, so it's better to enjoy each and every one in the moment. Of course, pay attention and take your shot, but the most charismatic/attractive men I've met are that way with every person they meet.

 

[Spaz]

We're still at this it seems.

Guys there's no game. Truly there's none at all to be played.

If there's a game then it's just actually ur frame at play. The sum total of you.

If you pick up some strange "game" that's not part of ur frame then you will not be able to sustainably attract women.

That's why many men, even whilst attracting women at the initial stage (either by looks or through manipulation/game) can't sustain it because it was fake to begin with.

I've always consistently said many times over, to build up ur foundations as a man, from there slowly level up, ur attractiveness will rise in tandem with that growth.

Now as for women, by now, you all should get it into ur thick skulls, that's IT'S ALWAYS THE WOMEN WHO INITIATES, she will do so many things just to be noticed, why do you think a woman takes her time to doll up huh?

It's her job to manipulate a man into manning up.

It's thrilling for her.

So please don't do her job for her, let her have her feminine fun.

How is it that I need to keep on teaching this simple stuff even to some of the Masters here.

 

[BeExcellent]

Good deal. Indicators of interest are not initiation. Of course women make an effort to look appealing. That’s not approaching or initiating.

Storm has simply moved the goalposts rather than debate on the merits.

I hold that compliance is the better indicator of a woman’s interest. Both initially and over time.

And I’m utterly consistent in that view here and elsewhere.

I don’t think confusing the less nuanced guys with what constitutes “initiation” helps anybody. Those of us with enough experience already know how to interact...so it’s academic for us. I agree with @fastlife & @samspade on this.

If you prefer a deferring woman who looks to her man for leadership that is.

Much of the rest is ego and posturing in this thread in my view.

So I’m pleased to be on Ignore. Thank you.