Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

[MrWood]

I dont know why we are even debating this.

topic:
Best indicator of interest level: Compliance or Initiation?

Initiation is the Best indicator of interest level.

True, a womans natural nature is to comply with the leading of the man, to fall into her comfort with complying submission.

Compliance cant start until interaction has begun. You can talk or message her 1000 times, she can converse with you in a complying way.

• Give her YOUR number, see of she calls you...
• Get the number of 100 girls, message all of them... 10/100 might respond, 2/100 you might get out on a date... you dont know.
• Give your number to 100 girls... the ones that contact you are INTERESTED because they initiated... you know.

does a cat comply with your commands? nearly never
when a cat is interested, it initiates by purring, rubbing your leg and jumping into your lap

remember fellas... women are like cats

 

[Focal core]

There’s a lot to do about nothing here. Women initiate because they are the the ones that need a man. No sense going into all those things.

Getting woman to comply is a manipulation and you have switched the dynamic. This is a tactic to get her to justify her compliance in her social conditioning. It is short lived and is actually a door to your manipulation by her and your fated fall. The manipulator always sets up his own manipulation.

A woman is basically a nurturer by nature. Her compliance is an automatic function of her natural inclinations. You don’t have to “get it” from her. She gives freely.

If she finds a way to interact with you, or sets it all up for you to interact, compliance will follow.
Some of you guys just aren’t seeing it is all. Men build and tackle the world. Women must present themselves and let you choose. That is the correct dynamic. There’s lots of ways to see, observe and take a vantage of this. Stop thinking and start observing.

This is the best answer so far.

 

[devilkingx2]

I think the key sign of interest is anything sexual when it comes to women, because a woman will rarely "use you for sex" and if she does... Don't you still win? All the sex with none of the pesky investment or commitment or money spent?

In my experience, if a woman won't get sexual with you or let you get sexual (we're talking sexual conversations over text and physical escalation in person) you're wasting your time and she's also wasting your time.

the only time I've ever seen a girl get sexual but not like you very much is when she's just a slvt who's DTF. In which case does it matter if she likes you?

Conversely if a woman claims to love you more than flowers love sunshine but is stingy on the sexual stuff, youre in for a world of hurt.

When I need to know how interested a woman is, I drop a sex joke, sexual meme or some blatantly sexual flirtation. When I need to know how well a relationship is going, I ask myself "how horny is my girlfriend? Are random chicks that barely know me more DTF than my girlfriend?"

 

[fastlife]

I think you might be the only guy in the world who doesn't like girls initiating on them. 99.9999% of guys on sosuave...probably in the entire world, no make that 100% of all guys excluding fastlife would pick women initiating over having to learn "seduction".

As a 14 year old kid, when girls were initiating on me, I didn't have thoughts in my head like "This is masculine. There is no feminine polarity. She is unfulfilled." LOL. I just simply unzipped my pants and accepted the bl0wjobs.

That's fine lol. Most people in general prefer to wait for life to happen to them. Yes, that's easier. And most people will rationalize that the easy results are the best results or whatever else they need to avoid rejection or the realization that they're not as special as their ego projections.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying to invest a ton of effort into a girl. I'm not saying to put up with a bunch of sh1t. But if you want something, go fvcking get it. You don't have to limit yourself to the desperate, the easy, or marry yourself to a social circle.

Yes. Keep giving women attention while they sit back and wait for all the diks. Lol

A woman will give clear indicators. Even old ladies will ensure that you know they are interested. Their entire universe is about them.

Oh boo hoo lol. ATTENTION DOESN'T COST YOU ANYTHING! If some girl wants to use me for validation, that's cool. It's not tangible. She can't buy anything with it. I won't have any less attention to give towards other things in my life.

Yeah, it happens. There are girls who are insecure enough that they get more value out of extracting attention and rejecting even high quality men. Cool, onto the next. Have some self respect. Have some expectations. And you can filter pretty quickly.

 

[Epic Days]

Oh boo hoo lol. ATTENTION DOESN'T COST YOU ANYTHING! If some girl wants to use me for validation, that's cool. It's not tangible. She can't buy anything with it. I won't have any less attention to give towards other things in my life.

It costs you her desire. Even sets you up to be her pillar cuck so that she can play while you think she’s your loving girlfriend. It’s a disservice to women.

Go forth and show us.

 

[CaptainNotSoObvious]

Getting woman to comply is a manipulation and you have switched the dynamic. This is a tactic to get her to justify her compliance in her social conditioning. It is short lived and is actually a door to your manipulation by her and your fated fall. The manipulator always sets up his own manipulation.

Care to elaborate?

 

[CaptainNotSoObvious]

Compliance doesn’t necessarily mean attraction. Compliance could mean boredom, or manipulation (hey girlfriends, at least some sucker is attracted to me), or politeness.

This is a new one for me. How can one differentiate between compliance as a form of admiration and submissiveness, vs compliance for manipulation purposes?

 

[Epic Days]

Care to elaborate?

Possibly. It a conceptual thought based on an encompassing understanding.

When you manipulate a woman, you are playing in the feminine imperative. It is underhanded. Very feminine in nature and is actually a form of cowardice. Somehow you don’t think you are enough.

Do not think for a second that she doesn’t figure it out. She is born better at it than you. The mere nature of manipulation is feminine.

If you think about it, you will see it. The manipulator will end up the manipulated by the woman. Then the guy will scream....BPD...BPD

 

[samspade]

The "don't give her attention" mantra is another one of those Sosuave/redpill rules that help newbies but has been scaled up to a level of stupidity among men who should know better. It's similar to what Rollo called dancing monkey hate, i.e. you're just performing a song and dance for a woman and you look like a fool. (Who cares how you look.)

The idea itself stems from cautioning chumps against pouring all their energy and money into one girl, without satisfaction and with ego-investment. That makes sense - these are guys who need unplugging, so they need to unlearn things like constant messaging, fawning, over-complimenting, and other nice guy b.s.

But if you're a man with experience, you should know better how to manage your attention. You have value, give it, spread it around. If you're worried that a little attention paid to a girl is going to cause her ego to skyrocket, well so what? Like @fastlife said, move on. But more importantly, if you're worried about it you're already doing it wrong. Your ego is in the way. You're taking women way too seriously.

Some women will initiate but not all will. Compliance is a much better measure of her femininity in my experience. It's more submissive, while initiation is more masculine and forward. I don't make the rules, that's just how the sexes were built. In the west it's been inverted a little bit which is a shame. Anyway, I'm a man, I go after what I want. If they initiate, I'll listen and see, but I've rejected a lot of bold women.

 

[fastlife]

It costs you her desire. Even sets you up to be her pillar cuck so that she can play while you think she’s your loving girlfriend. It’s a disservice to women.

Go forth and show us.

No, desire is also free. If you have to walk a tight rope for it or else you suddenly lose it, it was never genuine to begin with. If you have to constantly monitor your value so you don't lost it, you never had it to begin with.

Hot women will get validation regardless. Whether it's from you or a million and one other sources. But attention, in some form, is an essential part of ALL human interactions. It's not some super negative thing lol.

Yeah, be careful with your investments. But if you're generating options, which you will, inevitably, if you work on creating and actively sharing value, then it's not a big deal. Think of it like this: You're throwing an awesome party. Like the best party ever. Everyone will be there. If you invite someone to come and they say no, you're just like, whatever, your loss.

That's what initiating is. You still have to promote your party. People aren't just gonna magically know it exists. Most girls you cross paths with in your life simply won't know you exist if you don't go and get on her radar. A lot of those girls will be a sh1tty--big deal, plenty won't.

 

[Epic Days]

No, desire is also free. If you have to walk a tight rope for it or else you suddenly lose it, it was never genuine to begin with. If you have to constantly monitor your value so you don't lost it, you never had it to begin with.

Hot women will get validation regardless. Whether it's from you or a million and one other sources. But attention, in some form, is an essential part of ALL human interactions. It's not some super negative thing lol.

Yeah, be careful with your investments. But if you're generating options, which you will, inevitably, if you work on creating and actively sharing value, then it's not a big deal. Think of it like this: You're throwing an awesome party. Like the best party ever. Everyone will be there. If you invite someone to come and they say no, you're just like, whatever, your loss.

That's what initiating is. You still have to promote your party. People aren't just gonna magically know it exists. Most girls you cross paths with in your life simply won't know you exist if you don't go and get on her radar. A lot of those girls will be a sh1tty--big deal, plenty won't.

Hey. You’re good to go. Kock’m down. Go get them tiger.

 

[Trump]

This is a new one for me. How can one differentiate between compliance as a form of admiration and submissiveness, vs compliance for manipulation purposes?

Compliance doesn’t mean admiration or submissiveness.

Women see men as entertainment value these days, so compliance doesn’t much. If she complies, she gets the experience, she tells her girlfriends this guy is chasing me, you take her boredom away for a few hours, and her ego is fed.

Now if she initiates when she has countless options and so many distractions, you know you’ve triggered something emotionally where she sees a connection with you.

Thats why I don‘t understand men who say “if she submits, she’s interested.” Well, not really. How many guys would go to a hockey game with a 5/10 is the girl initiated and had free tickets? How many guys would call the same girl and ask her out for lunch? You only initiate with the ones you are in love with. With the ones you are not attracted to, OK, you’ll hang out as long as they call you and it doesn’t cost any money.

 

[Epic Days]

I'm not usually impressed by any females enough to want them until they show me some characteristics like knowing how to give and flirt/be feminine, etc. So by definition of my standards, it's impossible for me to "go get it." That sounds like a male seducer. Even when I am interacting with her, I am qualifying her. The "aggressor" frame is the opposite of my frame. My "aggression" is a reward when I am sold on her, not a tactic to try and win her over. Of course, part of me being "sold" has to do with her knowing how to seduce me with her feminine charms. I'm not going to be sold on a lifeless mannequin who just sits there and look pretty like 90% of chicks. The frame I'm coming from is qualifying women, not chasing. We have two completely different frames. And this is not some frame that I developed in "the game." I didn't watch a Tony Robbins seminar and thought to myself "If you want something, go and get it" and I didn't read it somewhere in the PUA community like 99% of you when you were first learning how to get over your approach anxiety. It's a frame I've always had deeply embedded in my since puberty.

"You don't have to limit yourself to the desperate, the easy, or marry yourself to a social circle."

So you are saying every woman that initiates on me is desperate and easy? Lol. That sounds like a cope for someone who doesn't have women seducing him and someone who doesn't have access to social networks with women (like 99% of all puas).

My definition of a social circle is not your friends you grew up with. It's entire social spheres that has tons of hot women. My experience with PUAs is that they have no friends. And they have no women seducing them. So they HAVE to be aggressive. Otherwise they would have no options. They are on the OUTSIDE looking in. Like the chess club in high school. They have noone to invite them to parties and introducing them to hot females. So they HAVE to roam the streets. That's why I call them "no life seducers." When you hang out with PUA's, the first thing he will ask you is "Where are the chicks at? You know any?" Lol. Does this sound like a guy who has any value to offer? I hang out with other guys who know just as much women as I do.

The fact that you even became a PUA in the first place is because you didn't grow up with female abundance. Your whole entire philosophy is trying to backwards engineer what guys like ME do naturally. That's the PUA community in a nutshell.

How can you be an unnatural yourself and try to call out a natural like me on "game"? Lol. You spent your life trying to mimic guys like me. That's like Pinocchio trying to criticize a human for not being real enough. You have no idea what it is to be a natural.

One guy is coming from abundance. The other guy is coming from scarcity. I think we all know who is who.

BTW, I've done hundreds of approaches in my life and used to average 50+ same day lays a year. I've forgotten more game than 99% of posters on this board would ever learn across 10 life times. I'm not anti pickup, even though I sound like it. I just don't have any need to do it. And that's the point. At some point you should have so much abundance from your every day social life that you don't need to go out and create an entire lifestyle based on cold approaching 100 women a week, lol.

That's like choosing to do door to door sales for the rest of your life. In business terms I am a corporation that has salespeople selling to me now and you are a door to door salesman who works 10x as hard to achieve 1/10th the success. That's not something to brag about.

Noone is afraid of approach anxiety. Stop it with that narrative (The number 1 PUA narrative they use to justify their desperation and no social life). We aren't 15 years old anymore. There are guys who don't have to lift a finger and live in abundance with women. Failure to realize this is projecting your own lack.

That's all you PUA's are doing. Projecting the fact that you HAVE NO CHOICE but to chase. You project it onto guys who don't have to chase and rationalize that WE are the feminine ones, lmao.

Who is more dominant...the chaser or the chasee?? And is being dominant masculine or feminine? This is a simple question.

I mentioned this once before in another thread. An extensive study was done and it was conclusive.

Setting up dozens of “speed dating” gatherings across the county. First they made it so that the men rotated to a different woman as the sound of the timer. All participants recorded their attraction level. The women were exceedingly choosy while the men were attracted to many women.

Then they reversed it. At the timer, the women moved to the next man. All recorded their level of attraction to each other.
The men became choosier and the women were attracted to multiple men.

Conclusion: the chaser gets attracted to many of the opposite sex. The one being chased became exceedingly choosy. The chaser is ALWAYS at the disadvantage and will become attracted to many of the other sex. The one being chased will become choosier.

Chasers and gawkers will attract less women. Looking lustfully at women IS chasing.

 

[samspade]

I don't understand how you can claim to be good with women and not know that there are social networks that has tons of attractive women and if you introduce yourself once, all the work is done for you. And from there you can network and branch off to other social spheres. And over time you would have so many options, you wouldn't know where to start. And you would laugh at guys who tell you that all your women are desperate and you should go out and chase bar flooze.

Who is more dominant...the chaser or the chasee?? And is being dominant masculine or feminine? This is a simple question.

Great questions.

Dominant = masculine. The chaser is dominant and the chasee is submissive.

Good news: You are the chaser, even with the methods you've described that work great for you. They sound passive at first blush, but are in fact not.

Per Rollo (I think he said it well):

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other...We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.

[...]

Men must perform; and even when they’re performing as the result of genuine curiosity and interest they will make an impression on women. You cannot remove yourself from the Game. There’s a misnomer that Red Pill advocates believe all men need do is be good looking, aloof and let women come to them, but the truth is that even if you’re not approaching you’re still performing, you’re still presenting a presence that women (and other men) will evaluate.

The genuineness of your motive is only realized by you.


The rest of this discussion is guys talking past each other and a lot of semantics. It's just women, no need to take it so seriously.

BTW I may be wrong but you sound like you had great success with women at a young age (some of us didn't), and have built a successful career and - I'm guessing - are a handsome devil. I'm not using those as excuses, just pointing out that you've mastered a lot of spheres which help do the work for you. Nevertheless as a man you are still the pursuer; it was ever thus.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter much if we're all getting the results we want. I can't begrudge anyone his methods and I know what works for me. But at the end of the day we're arguing about methods, ergo, pursuit.

Respect - SS

 

[samspade]

When I was in college I lucked out and ended up working at this place where there were tons of hot women. I didn't really try to make any moves. But one by one, the women would come up to me and give me "plausible deniability." They would say something like "I made lasagna tonight. Do you like lasagana?" It would always lead to sex.

Basically all the women were chasing me and I didn't have to do a thing. It wasn't even in my consciousness to try and get laid. Now, by your definition, I was submissive, then? Or was I dominant?

The girls were deathly afraid of getting devalidated by me. They treated my ego with kid's gloves. I couldn't blow myself out no matter how hard I tried. It didn't matter how entitled or a jacka$$ I was. My value was absolute. Basically, the frame was completely reversed and the women were supplicating and more importantly, calibrating to me. I was the chooser and they were the chaser.

Does this look submissive to you?

All the women were living in my frame. It didn't matter how fvcked up my frame was.

Again, does this look like I am in a submissive position, or was I.....

The dominant male of tribe? Like the way nature intended?

These aren't my methods. This is how nature created human beings. Men are the dominant leaders because they can fend off sabretooth tigers. And all women supplicate and calibrate to the male otherwise they die. To say these are my methods is as accurate as calling me God.

Again, you quoted Rollo. I quote experience and Nature.

Women have no power. The only power they have is the power you give them. Biologically they are the ones who need to chase you and hold on to you for dear life. And when you are in a tribal environment, their biology takes over.

I absolutely don't think you were submissive. But you were not the chasee or the prey IMO. It may have been very easy for you, but you still had to present yourself in a social situation and perform.

A rock star would have much the same experience (and they often do). This does not make men the prey of women. And I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. What you have accomplished is excellent and most men should strive for it. Striving in and of itself makes one the dominant, proactive actor.

I'm quoting nature, too. Eggs are expensive cargo. Females still choose who gets access to them. Watch any nature documentary on mammals and you will see what I mean. I don't make the rules, that's just how nature is.

I've had many attractive women come after me hard, seemingly without me doing much more than show up. But it was never that simple. I was still the proactive one by virtue of my charm, looks, etc. I was still participating in the great dance and playing my role. (Unlike you, I could have blown myself out, lol.) And I don't think this stuff is totally binary, but I see a man as someone who pursues what he wants. Of course, he may become attractive by passionately pursuing his calling. Not always.

I also have had great experiences with women where I was the one who took notice of her, walked over and talked to her. I would have missed out on a lot of these if I'd just stood by and waited for them to come to me. It didn't give them any "power" over me. That would only happen if I let it happen, but it wasn't because I was bold enough to open a girl who hadn't noticed me yet.

Anyway, if we disagree, that's cool....like I said what matters most is if we're being true to ourselves and living the lives we want. (And I think we both are.)

 

[Epic Days]

Women tell guys they like guys who chase and then go out and reject 100 chasers every weekend. And when a guy they really like shows up, they throw themselves at him and let him hit it raw with no effort from the guy's part.

i remember your post on serendipity. It would fit here.

 

[samspade]

@stormrider respect, good chat. We have different experiences and perspectives but yours were edifying.

 

[Cloudtopsun2100]

A woman could just be an AW and initiate out of habit or by design without any real interest. Compliance though is something that is used often in sales, its a quality that shows at worst curiousity and at best interest in going all the way through with whatever process both parties are involved in.

For example, someone could be calling you up and texting about going to some concert or other event but just be looking for someone to go with or to buy tickets but if you were to say "how about we don't do A and we instead go with B cause I prefer B and I think you would too", only someone with true interest (most of the time, no absolutes of course)would ditch out on the original plan to go with you on the new adventure while someone with no real interest would just call the next person in their contact list etc.

 

[Epic Days]

I can't believe some guys are so stuck in the feminine imperative that they think masculinity has anything to do with seducing women, lol.

Indeed. These things are off target at a very fundamental level.

 

[devilkingx2]

I would say that a man should expect lead and initiate and plan accordingly because it isn't HER job to get YOU laid, its your job to get yourself laid.

However if the girl is expecting you to jump through flaming hoops to reach the queens throne, or actively throwing a wrench into your best laid schemes, then you're wasting your time and should find another girl.

If things are going well it will feel either smooth and easy or like she's doing all the work for you anyway.