Dates that are a waste of time

[New_Journey]

TL;DR:
She showed clear signs of discomfort before stating her boundary, and without knowing her true intentions, it’s likely OP misread the situation, thinking it was a date while she may have just been casually vetting him. A guy she was more attracted to would’ve likely started further along in the interaction and faced less resistance.

Due to the many ideologies surrounding this and the complexity of the question, I’ll try to keep my response as concise as possible:

First and foremost, seduction is the process of drawing someone in, making them want you, pursue you, and ultimately possess you. The reason why you want someone to desire you can vary (sex, money, power, popularity, the challenge, being enjoyable to be around, etc.), but the game is mutual: both parties are seducing each other at the same time.

Seduction generally follows a similar progression: interest → desire → emotional connection/attachment → physicality/sex. If both parties are equally attracted to each other, they’ll start around the same point and both will need to invest the same amount of effort. However, if one is much more interested than the other, say, the stereotypical “creepy guy” with oneitis for the cheerleader, he’ll have to put in significantly more work just to get her to the starting line, while she might already be in the emotional connection phase just by being aware of his interest.

With this in mind: yes, if she were more attracted to another guy, he would’ve started further along in the seduction process than OP did.

Please be aware just because two people sleep together with mutual consent doesn’t mean seduction took place.


As for the other question: most women only start communicating like men, directly, when they see that subtle cues aren’t being picked up. Before she told him directly that she likes to take things slow, she was signalling that indirectly through:

• Pulling away slightly when he put his hand on her back
• Visibly showing annoyance when he stroked her hair
• Saying she doesn’t like to be touched
• Not reciprocating any physical affection
• Giggling at flirtation, but not escalating or encouraging further touch

I don’t think this was a **** test. It looked like a clear attempt to set a boundary.

That said, we don’t know her real intentions or her POV. She may have just wanted a free drink, an ego boost, or never intended to get to know OP at all. This is why I don’t ask women out right away, I prefer to let them invest in me a bit first to screen out situations like this. Personally, I think she briefly placed him at the top of her orbiters to vet whether he was worth further effort, while OP may have thought he was already on a second date.

Ultimately, advice here is always like shooting in the dark, because we don’t know the full story. OP may have left out key details—intentionally or not—that could shift the interpretation completely on or against his behalf even further.

This is good, but guys who are having issues with escalating, telling him "seduction is a process" a guy who doesn't know how it works, it means nothing. The clearer the intention the better. Who gives a fvck what she thinks if he's creepy or not, a guy who has never escalated reads this and says "fvck no, I can't let a 120 lbs woman call me creepy, that will destry my life" and then they end up like OP coping with being physically incompatibility jerking off in his bed. At least if he would have gone for the kiss, he would have the satisfaction that he got balls. ABC Always Be Closing.

 

[Clockwerk50]

This is good, but guys who are having issues with escalating, telling him "seduction is a process" a guy who doesn't know how it works, it means nothing. The clearer the intention the better. Who gives a fvck what she thinks if he's creepy or not, a guy who has never escalated reads this and says "fvck no, I can't let a 120 lbs woman call me creepy, that will destry my life" and then they end up like OP coping with being physically incompatibility jerking off in his bed. At least if he would have gone for the kiss, he would have the satisfaction that he got balls. ABC Always Be Closing.

Everyone gave their opinion on why OP didn’t sleep with or kiss the girl on the first hangout, and the general conclusion was that he was either impulsive, misread the room, or got butthurt when she told him to chill. Personally, I don’t think his problem is escalation. He can keep escalating like this, but for it to work, he either needs to raise his SMV so he starts further along in the process, or find women who are already into him at the level his SMV sits. It’s completely valid if he doesn’t want to “talk” with a girl for a couple of weeks before sex, or if he expects a kiss on the first hangout; he’s an adult and can set his own terms for how he plays the game. And it’s just as valid if he decides to text the girl that he’s no longer interested and walks away. Everyone has their own standards.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Some chicks are weird when touching their hair...

I had a similar situation with this attractive doctor that had a banging body that I met a few years ago and we had an amazing first date, lots of kino, making out, etc...met up with her the next week for the second date and I was standing in line behind her at some quick service restaurant that we went to before we moved onto to somewhere else and she didn't say anything but after the date she texted me and was upset that I touched her hair and was like "you don't know me like that and you are touching my hair??"

Needless to say there was no 3rd date...

Moral of the story? Some women have issues with things most women don't, and you'll never know what those are ahead of time usually.

Nothing you can do but chalk it up to the game and move forward.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I loath tattoos but I considered her to be a hot goth.

Disclaimer: I am not around goths so I’m. Not sure what’s a regular goth.

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View attachment 14301

I love tattoos on women

 

[Barrister]

OP,

First, good job on getting a same-day date. That’s always impressive and is rare to have happen. I’ve only had that happen twice I believe.

I think it’s safe to assume that, despite what you may believe, this girl was picking up on your frustration to her being resistant towards you. The fact you noticed her shy away a bit as you were walking into the venue probably changed your overall attitude towards her without you even realizing it. She likely picked up on it, and it doomed the rest of the night. You still could have recovered I think at multiple instances. But the text at the end wasn’t a good look. Don’t do that as it looks incredibly butt hurt and not masculine in any way.

True that none of us were there. But this is just common sense if you understand women. They have a 6th sense for this and your negative emotions were probably palpable to her even if you didn’t think so. Those are complete mood killers.

 

[Redwood]

I wouldn't call this woman a goth. She seems like a heavily tattooed Gen Z woman. She would be more attractive with 0 tattoos or 1-2 small tattoos.

Millennial and Gen Z women are obsessed with tattoos.

They are and it's an annoying trend.

 

[ThisIsSparta]

, it seems you missed the part where I said, whatever makes you comfortable. Your reading skills aren't up to par and I hope it's not as bad as your game.

Even here you get emotional and pissed if someone tells you what you dont wanna hear. You can denie that all day long, its not gonna do you a favor though.

 

[SW15]

good job on getting a same-day date. That’s always impressive and is rare to have happen. I’ve only had that happen twice I believe.

I had an instantaneous date happen off of a walking path approach once. Instantaneous and same day dates off of non-bar approaches are uncommon.

this is just common sense if you understand women. They have a 6th sense for this and your negative emotions were probably palpable to her even if you didn’t think so. Those are complete mood killers.

Correct. Good point too.

 

[Oatmeal31]

Even here you get emotional and pissed if someone tells you what you dont wanna hear. You can denie that all day long, its not gonna do you a favor though.

When you tell me my reaction is retarded I will respond appropriately. Don't be a princess and keep that same energy

 

[The Duke]

Just went on one of the most retarded dates I've been on in a while. I met this attractive and tall gothic girl on the street TODAY, and she was willing to meet me TONIGHT. And she did.

I saw this sexy and tall gothic girl, made my approach, commented on her style, talked a bit about music, took her hand, kissed it and twirled her around.

I took her number and said I'd take her on a date, and talked to her about when she would be free. She said something like she works this weekend, but she could do next Sunday. I said that's a bit too long, but we can arrange over text. Took her hand, twirled her once more and we parted ways.

Fast forward a couple hours, since I realize I'm working the next few days, I figure I'd I text her to see if she's down for anything tonight. Attached the text conversation

Straight green lights. She's agrees and is down to meet tonight. Cool. We set a time. 8:30pm comes and as I'm talking to the bouncer, she arrives. He goes 'Damn. She's with you, go right in.' I put my hand on her back to guide her as we go in. I noticed she was pulling away a bit as I did that. Weird. Thought it was just her walking in, didn't think much of it.

It's a bit loud but we find a couple seats. I pull one out for her and let her sit at the bar first. I sit, and then we start talking. She's asking me about my day and as I order an Old Style, we go into what we did, different topics and what not. I ask questions to get her to talk about herself so that I can just sit back and listen.

I had an ear infection recently, so whenever I talk I hear it in my left ear as well, so it feels weird for me when I do talk. But she's also asking plenty of questions back, so I oblige, talk as usual. Early on, I take her hands and ask about her rings, she doesn't mind, and talks about where she got them and what not. Then I move on to her tattoos, which she has plenty of, and touch her as I ask about them. Doesn't seem to mind. When I stroke her hair, she visibly gets annoyed, I notice, and I ask if it's bothering her. She said she doesn't like to be touched.

WTF? You were giggling and laughing when I met you on the street and kissed your hand, etc. but you don't like to be touched? In response, I said 'no problem, whatever makes you comfortable.' I pulled back but still made light touches throughout. She didn't seem to mind at that point, but it made it difficult to flirt with her. I threw in some verbal flirts in there but would just get a giggle or laugh, and I didn't push the affection much further.

When I closed out the tab, we walked out, and she and I mentioned the speakeasies and sh1t she mentioned when we met earlier, and asked how she was feeling. I remember saying I'd like to kiss her but she seems reserved and wants to take it slow. She giggled and said yeah I like to take it slow.

She said she was feeling good, so I figured we'd go on a little walk around and see what else was around, but soon after, she asked where I was going. The ****? I said we were going on a walk to see what else there was (refer to texts) She said ok, and then soon after she said, you know what, I have to wake up early tomorrow and go to work.

Yes, now you have a magical work assignment you never mentioned before. She said she'd head back, but thanks. I said I'll walk her back since it's dark out and she had something to drink. She said she had a mocktail. Said I'd walk her back anyway.
(It's ****ing Chicago and you're dressed like a ****ing diva at night on the way to the train)

She takes this whole loop around, while we're walking, which takes twice as long as it should've. She makes conversation and we talk along the way, we finally arrive, she gives the weakest goodbye, weak ass hug and doesn't even wait for a response, just goes.

I text her a couple minutes after and say 'We aren't a good fit at all. Good luck.'

Quite easily one of the most retarded dates I've been on. Almost as bad as going out with a girl I met at the club once. Almost.

You're willing to meet me, a man that came up to you on the street, the same fvcking night, but you draw the line when I touch you, which is what I explicitly did earlier. I'm here for a DATE, not to have platonic conversation, forgo any flirting, and talk about your art and sh1t.


First girl I've ever met that was against physical affection.
I'm going to bed, waste of time.



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I don't think you built enough rapport to get away with the physical advances. You lacked awareness/concern and kept working towards what you wanted, with little respect for her wishes. You have to understand women need to feel comfortable and at ease. You put her on guard with your advances, then wanted to take her for a walk where you didn't even communicate where you might be going.

The tone of your date went a lot like this thread is going. You're only ok with it as long as it fits the response you are looking for. When it doesn't, you grow frustrated.

You make the point that she was willing to touch a strange guy off the street, but didn't want to on the date. A woman's feelings ebb and flow.

Work on connecting thru how you communicate with her and you won't have these sorts of problems.

The vibe you give off is that you thought you could rely on "touch" and build some connection. This wasn't the case with her. You ran up against her boundaries too many times and turned her off.

 

[Oatmeal31]

I don't think you built enough rapport to get away with the physical advances. You lacked awareness/concern and kept working towards what you wanted, with little respect for her wishes. You have to understand women need to feel comfortable and at ease. You put her on guard with your advances, then wanted to take her for a walk where you didn't even communicate where you might be going.

The tone of your date went a lot like this thread is going. You're only ok with it as long as it fits the response you are looking for. When it doesn't, you grow frustrated.

You make the point that she was willing to touch a strange guy off the street, but didn't want to on the date. A woman's feelings ebb and flow.

Work on connecting thru how you communicate with her and you won't have these sorts of problems.

The vibe you give off is that you thought you could rely on "touch" and build some connection. This wasn't the case with her. You ran up against her boundaries too many times and turned her off.

That's fair. And yeah I kinda do heavily rely on touch to flirt. Thanks

 

[BackInTheGame78]

That's fair. And yeah I kinda do heavily rely on touch to flirt. Thanks

This can be seen as an opportunity to help you identify and work on shoring up a hole in your game, which is improving situational awareness in date with how a woman is responding to your touches, etc...

Something I feel like I could improve on as well. Work to turn your weaknesses into a strength when you are given the opportunity.

 

[Oatmeal31]

I don't think you built enough rapport to get away with the physical advances. You lacked awareness/concern and kept working towards what you wanted, with little respect for her wishes. You have to understand women need to feel comfortable and at ease. You put her on guard with your advances, then wanted to take her for a walk where you didn't even communicate where you might be going.

The tone of your date went a lot like this thread is going. You're only ok with it as long as it fits the response you are looking for. When it doesn't, you grow frustrated.

You make the point that she was willing to touch a strange guy off the street, but didn't want to on the date. A woman's feelings ebb and flow.

Work on connecting thru how you communicate with her and you won't have these sorts of problems.

The vibe you give off is that you thought you could rely on "touch" and build some connection. This wasn't the case with her. You ran up against her boundaries too many times and turned her off.

This can be seen as an opportunity to help you identify and work on shoring up a hole in your game, which is improving situational awareness in date with how a woman is responding to your touches, etc...

Something I feel like I could improve on as well. Work to turn your weaknesses into a strength when you are given the opportunity.

Here's the thing. As I said before, I was far more tame than I would normally be. I did pull back and then I went back in with light touches when going through her tattoos, rings, or when we couldn't hear each other in the loud ass bar and had to bring our heads in. Are you saying that I should've just completely backed off and never touched her again? At that point, it feels platonic and I'm not having as good of a time. This just seems like a case of incompatibility because I'm not willing to go on multiple dates for a chance at something I want.

And before you guys insinuate that I'm being selfish. As I said, I took interest in her. I asked questions, listened, had conversation, talked about her, talked about myself. Conversation with some verbal flirting tossed in by me, which she just kept saying thanks to.

I took feedback from you guys in regards to the touching because it is a pattern and I purposely dialed it back with this girl, because I'm normally escalating even quicker. And even other girls did not pull back the way this one did.

See where I'm going with this?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Here's the thing. As I said before, I was far more tame than I would normally be. I did pull back and then I went back in with light touches when going through her tattoos, rings, or when we couldn't hear each other in the loud ass bar and had to bring our heads in. Are you saying that I should've just completely backed off and never touched her again? At that point, it feels platonic and I'm not having as good of a time. This just seems like a case of incompatibility because I'm not willing to go on multiple dates for a chance at something I want.

And before you guys insinuate that I'm being selfish. As I said, I took interest in her. I asked questions, listened, had conversation, talked about her, talked about myself. Conversation with some verbal flirting tossed in by me, which she just kept saying thanks to.

I took feedback from you guys in regards to the touching because it is a pattern and I purposely dialed it back with this girl, because I'm normally escalating even quicker. And even other girls did not pull back the way this one did.

See where I'm going with this?

No it's about figuring out what is going to give you the highest probability with the type of woman you have in front of you.

Clearly that method was not the way that did that. And that's OK...it's a learning experience if you allow it to be.

At the end of the day it's about becoming part chameleon so that you become whatever you need to be to get the intended result as long as it doesn't violate your belief system in some way(ie, don't run out and start robbing or killing people because the chick is one of those ones that gets turned on by danger)

 

[Oatmeal31]

No it's about figuring out what is going to give you the highest probability with the type of woman you have in front of you.

Clearly that method was not the way that did that. And that's OK...it's a learning experience if you allow it to be.

At the end of the day it's about becoming part chameleon so that you become whatever you need to be to get the intended result as long as it doesn't violate your belief system in some way(ie, don't run out and start robbing or killing people because the chick is one of those ones that gets turned on by danger)

Tell me about a date you had where you had to turn chameleon, or make certain adjustments, to accommodate her. Because in my eyes, I did. I pulled back, but I did re-enter. Or tell me what you would've done. No touching at all?

I get the point you're making but turning chameleon for a girl sounds like a nice guy thing. You know, the guy that agrees with her, pretends to have common interests, etc. Doesn't sound seductive

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Tell me about a date you had where you had to turn chameleon, or make certain adjustments, to accommodate her. Because in my eyes, I did. I pulled back, but I did re-enter. Or tell me what you would've done. No touching at all?

I get the point you're making but turning chameleon for a girl sounds like a nice guy thing. You know, the guy that agrees with her, pretends to have common interests, etc. Doesn't sound seductive

Ever watch a viper hunt?

It sits motionless in the cover it uses to camouflage itself and waits for it's prey to come to it, not even knowing they are in danger, and then when the prey is sometimes only inches away, it strikes with lightning speed and precision before the prey even knows what happens.

You be a chameleon to lure them in and then you strike like a viper. There is nothing "nice guy" about it.

 

[Oatmeal31]

Ever watch a viper hunt?

It sits motionless in the cover it uses to camouflage itself and waits for it's prey to come to it, not even knowing they are in danger, and then when the prey is sometimes only inches away, it strikes with lightning speed and precision before the prey even knows what happens.

You be a chameleon to lure them in and then you strike like a viper. There is nothing "nice guy" about it.

Alright, I'm done here. That does not help at all LOL. No real life examples, just a random animal documentary analogy

 

[BPH]

Tell me about a date you had where you had to turn chameleon, or make certain adjustments, to accommodate her. Because in my eyes, I did. I pulled back, but I did re-enter. Or tell me what you would've done. No touching at all?

@BeExcellent suggested The Art of Seduction by Robert Greene which I've been reading. The book details Anti-Seducer traits. I would say yours is The Brute; you rush the process and the seduction doesn't feel organic because you're not winning her over - you're just testing, and pushing her boundaries.

I would also say there are elements of The Reactor, but directed at us, moreso than her; emotional, defensive (such as with your breakup text).

Anyway, I think I have some examples from my LR - 100 that would apply here:

1. She wants to go on a date early enough that she can see her friends afterwards, and I want to go on a date late enough that I'm not just a pregame for her.
   1. What I Did - Reframe her request to she understands how she might feel if I had made that request of her. Make alternatives, and compromise. We go on a date a different night so she doesn't have to choose between me or her friends, and I stood firm on it being a late-night date where I'm the end of her night, rather than the start of it.
   2. What I Didn't Do - Explain logically why this bothers me and try to reason with her. Assume that her request is a sign of low interest rather than understanding the context (she's graduating, these are her friends she's known for years, and will likely never see again). Tell her off for wasting my time or choosing her friends over me, since I'm such a prize.
2. When I try to escalate with touches or kisses, I notice she is receptive, but only the minimal amount, and that she's not initiating any of it.
   1. What I Did - Recognize this, pull back, and look for clues as to whether this is a sign of low interest, or something else. It turns out she simply doesn't like public displays of affection, especially when in the presence of her friend group, which might judge her. Once we were back in my car, or back at her place, there was zero resistance to my advances.
   2. What I Didn't Do - Become self-conscious that I'm being snubbed and assume she has a different impression of what a "date" is. Continuously force these interactions thinking I would eventually overcome these barriers and she would become more comfortable with me. End the date early because I'd think she wasn't really interested in me, and just using me for free drinks/food.
3. When I brought her back to her house, she did not invite me inside. Despite the sexual tension, and her insinuating that she would rather have fun with me at her place than in my car, she wanted to make me wait.
   1. What I Did - Understood that she might simply not be comfortable enough with having a stranger enter her house where her friends also live. Make plans to see her again in the near future, kiss her goodnight, tell her I had fun with her, and let her know that I had arrived home safe. As you would've read in that LR, she did invite me inside on Date 2.
   2. What I Didn't Do - Express disappointment that I had paid for her evening and not gotten sex out of it. Sent her a text that I didn't think we were a good fit because she wasn't willing to move at my pace. Leave her feeling relieved that she had denied me sex because I was in a rush and could not handle being told "no".

Hope these examples helped.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Alright, I'm done here. That does not help at all LOL. No real life examples, just a random animal documentary analogy

Sometimes the best help is the kind that leaves you to ponder what was said and discover the solution yourself than to be given the answer.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Alright, I'm done here. That does not help at all LOL. No real life examples, just a random animal documentary analogy

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