Anyone here from Russia?

[EyeBRollin]

Yes. They are being surgical about it as much as they can be. That is why the Russians back away when the resistance is heavy. They back away, and then surround. They want to "capture" Ukraine not destroy it. They also want to "capture" the Ukraine military, not destroy them, because they will need them to defend their own country after the corrupt government is deposed by the Russians. That is why they aren't leveling buildings, the electricity is still on, the water system is still clean and functioning, the internet is still working, and any other public facilities and services are still working.

The Ukrain citizens are fairly safe from the Russians as long as they keep their distance. They are more endangered by their own government trying to take all men 18-60yo "into custody" (even stopping city busses and pulling them off the buss) and forcing them into the military,...where they then can be a target of the Russians.

Correct me if I am wrong but this reads as Ukraine citizens should just accept a Russian takeover and Occupation.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Nothing in zekko's post said anyone should feel sorry for anybody. Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well.

It seems to me that people are trying to have a nuanced conversation about naked 21st century imperialism.

 

[PRW63]

Correct me if I am wrong but this reads as Ukraine citizens should just accept a Russian takeover and Occupation.

They are already oppressed and occupied by their own government. They are going to be oppressed and occupied no matter which way they go. Pick one. All Putin is going to do is push out the existing corrupt government and replace it with a different corrupt government that is just less pro-NATO and less anti-Russian. Then the Russians will leave and put the Ukraine military back in their place under the new government. Not much different than the US with Iraq but hopefully much less messy. There is no win-win. A win-win doesn't exist for them. There is no "win" in Socialist Regimes and Socialist Regimes is all that part of the world offers anyone. So pick one that will turn on you and kill you less often.

 

[samspade]

So Putin had absolutely no choice but to invade Unkraine to stop NATO from moving in,...just like Kennedy in the USA had to stop the Soviet Union when they tried to put missiles in Cuba for the same purpose.

The Soviet Union began moving warheads to Cuba in response to the US installing missile silos in Turkey. Kennedy secretly agreed to have them removed to get the Soviets out of Cuba. It goes on and on. This is the madness of war and especially of nuclear brinksmanship and MAD. Putin certainly has a choice, nobody is forcing him to do anything. He is a despot who fears republicanism at his doorstep. Legitimate democracies very rarely invade each other.

 

[EyeBRollin]

They are already oppressed and occupied by their own government. They are going to be oppressed and occupied no matter which way they go. Pick one. All Putin is going to do is push out the existing corrupt government and replace it with a different corrupt government that is just less pro-NATO and less anti-Russian. Then the Russians will leave and put the Ukraine military back in their place under the new government. Not much different than the US with Iraq but hopefully much less messy. There is no win-win. A win-win doesn't exist for them. There is no "win" in Socialist Regimes and Socialist Regimes is all that part of the world offers anyone. So pick one that will turn on you and kill you less often.

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

 

[corrector]

Ok so the deadly virus didnt stop to be deadly, it's just that now running the risk of death it's fine cause the protests are for a good reason?

Exactly. When you are a man of conviction then you do not worry about dying. You stand up for what is right.

 

[corrector]

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

At least the invading country doesn't view them as sub-human.

 

[PRW63]

Legitimate democracies very rarely invade each other.

Who said there were any legitimate democracies over there?...or anywhere for that matter. It is all Socialist Regimes over there.

 

[PRW63]

At least the invading country doesn't view them as sub-human.

Nearly 45%-50% of the population of Ukraine is Russian,...they consider themselves Russian,...and they speak Russian,...not Ukrainian. So, no they are not viewed as sub human,...that is just propaganda.

 

[PRW63]

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

Back to what SamSpade said to you when he said, "Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well. "

Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well.

 

[corrector]

Nearly 45%-50% of the population of Ukraine is Russian,...they consider themselves Russian,...and they speak Russian,...not Ukrainian. So, no they are not viewed as sub human,...that is just propaganda.

That was intended a historical reference to how they were treated under the Nazis when Germany invaded them in the past. The Nazi Germans viewed them as sub-human.

 

[PRW63]

That was intended a historical reference to how they were treated under the Nazis when Germany invaded them in the past. The Nazi Germans viewed them as sub-human.

Ah!
I see.

 

[samspade]

Who said there were any legitimate democracies over there?...or anywhere for that matter. It is all Socialist Regimes over there.

Are you referring to Europe? They may be overbearing bureacratic states, but I don't see an equivalence between Western European democracies and Russia. I live in Europe and in many ways it's less free than the US, in many ways much, much more free. All depends on your priorities and how well you can make the system work for you, IMO. Can't speak firsthand about Russia but from what my friends have told me, it doesn't sound ideal for my priorities.

As to your greater point, true, democracies rarely answer to the people like they should. But like I said, they don't go to war with each other often. My amateur guess is it's because 1) free trade and free speech solve a lot of problems, and 2) at the very least, elected leaders aren't (or shouldn't be) considered indispensable. One gets whacked or dies, another steps in. The Russians don't need Putin, but he thinks they do.

Nearly 45%-50% of the population of Ukraine is Russian,...they consider themselves Russian,...and they speak Russian,...not Ukrainian. So, no they are not viewed as sub human,...that is just propaganda.

Russia began in the Ukraine. Perhaps Ukraine should reclaim Russia.

 

[EyeBRollin]

It is not a strawman. These are apologist statements:

They are already oppressed and occupied by their own government.

They are going to be oppressed and occupied no matter which way they go. Pick one.

All Putin is going to do is push out the existing corrupt government and replace it with a different corrupt government that is just less pro-NATO and less anti-Russian.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Exactly. When you are a man of conviction then you do not worry about dying. You stand up for what is right.

Yeah but I need the gov to support me cause if I do it by myself I get arrested and my bank frozen (honk honk).

Cant you see how ridicolous is it?

"You cant do that cause its deadly" becomes "you can take your risks if you support something we like."

 

[PRW63]

Ah!
I see.

Are you referring to Europe?

former Soviet areas,...and, yea, I'm being a little sarcastic and hyperbolic

 

[PRW63]

Russia began in the Ukraine. Perhaps Ukraine should reclaim Russia.

It's ain't over. Maybe they will

 

[Zimbabwe]

Perhaps installing some sort of puppet government is the aim of Russia's peace talks with the Ukraine. I doubt that Ukraine will agree to that, however. Ukraine probably wanted to join NATO, but I'm not sure NATO would have allowed that since they knew that would provoke Putin.

I hope that the way the whole world has stood against this aggression will deter China from attacking Taiwan. They may have at least some interest in looking like the good guys.

I hope china does attack taiwan so we can finally stop buying chinese junk. The world would be a better place.

 

[zekko]

Apparently I have to make a statement that I am not in favor of Russia attacking the Ukraine.
We were just discussing Putin's motives.

I admire the bravery of the Ukrainians fighting for their country, and also for the Russians who were protesting the war. Who knows what price they might pay for that?

I hope china does attack taiwan so we can finally stop buying chinese junk. The world would be a better place.

In the long run maybe. In the meantime, great more inflation.

 

[Stuffnu]

Once we get rid of the scourge that governs Russian, China, Iran, N. Korea, and the like, the world and there populations may finally be able to live in peace and comfort!