Anyone here from Russia?

[EyeBRollin]

I don't recall @zekko saying it did; you are starting an argument out of something nobody on this thread said. Explaining something is not tantamount to justifying it.

Disagree. Explaining is justifying. Putin fvcked up when he invaded a sovereign country. This is really cut and dry.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Its because it was for a good cause.

Ok so the deadly virus didnt stop to be deadly, it's just that now running the risk of death it's fine cause the protests are for a good reason?

 

[lgbs2004]

Putin should have just gone No Contact. He could be influencing some vassal state that's into him.

It's over fo WarHungryCels

 

[EyeBRollin]

No, it is not. If you explain to me the rationales Nazi Germany used for invading the rest of Europe, this does not mean you are saying what they did is right. History teachers explain causes for war and injustice to students every day, and students then do the same on exams, without succumbing to fascism.

This is not classroom context. Trying to make us feel sorry for Russia is a justification for their invasion.

 

[logicallefty]

Average people like us don't know for certain what's actually going on yet. We all get our news from the sources we trust and process it and believe it how we think is best. But I've seen some sources I normally follow on world events saying that there is more to the story than what 95% of the average people really know. They are saying that Putin isn't invading the government or country of Ukraine itself, but rather, going after specific targets of interest within the country. Key term "DS".

 

[PRW63]

Putin is on a mass propaganda campaign

So is Ukraine. This all comes directly from the lips of a civilian man in Kiev watching it happen first hand with his own eyes. The Ukraine "Pres" is giving untrained citizens AK-74's, which they will go out and get themselves killed with so that the pictures of their dead bodies can be used for propaganda of "Russian Atrocities". He is also placing artillery in civilian areas like apartment complexes (maybe schools) so that when the Russian take them out they will take out the buildings around them,...then the pictures can be used as propaganda of "Russian Atrocities",...so using citizens as Human Shields. Then they are taking all men age 18-60yo and forcing them into the military against their will,...going as far as stopping city busses, going into them and pulling the men off the bus by force and putting them in the military.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Average people like us don't know for certain what's actually going on yet. We all get our news from the sources we trust and process it and believe it how we think is best. But I've seen some sources I normally follow on world events saying that there is more to the story than what 95% of the average people really know. They are saying that Putin isn't invading the government or country of Ukraine itself, but rather, going after specific targets of interest within the country. Key term "DS".

Agree on that, we all have limited manipulated details about this situation.

I dont wanna sound a cospirationist (altought they got most things right recently) yet I find the timing of this invasion very suspicious.

After 8 years of nothing despite provocations from both sides, Putin decides to invade Ukraine exactly when the covid narrative was getting rejected from the people and inflation reached a point that demanded radical countermeasures to be dealt with.

Now all this extreme measures from the west on russian population seem like done on purpose to radicalize russian citizens against the west and to support their own government which would have not happen in case of lighter sanctions possibly directed only toward wealthy individuals.

There are simply too many things that dont come right here.

 

[PRW63]

It's like Putin's Cuban Missle Crisis.

Exactly. NATO wants Unkraine so that they can place medium ranged missles there,...pointed at Russia. This violates the doctrine/deterant of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). When they are far away (like the US and Russia) the flight time is long enough that the other side has time to return fire,...both sides will die (MAD), so it is a stalemate and nobody fires. But if the missiles are in Ukraine the flight time is less than 5 minutes which is not enough time for Russia to respond,...so it is a death sentence for a nation of millions of people. The missiles won't kill just Putin "personally & individually", they will kill everyone. So Putin had absolutely no choice but to invade Unkraine to stop NATO from moving in,...just like Kennedy in the USA had to stop the Soviet Union when they tried to put missiles in Cuba for the same purpose.

 

[PRW63]

Average people like us don't know for certain what's actually going on yet. We all get our news from the sources we trust and process it and believe it how we think is best. But I've seen some sources I normally follow on world events saying that there is more to the story than what 95% of the average people really know. They are saying that Putin isn't invading the government or country of Ukraine itself, but rather, going after specific targets of interest within the country. Key term "DS".

Yes. They are being surgical about it as much as they can be. That is why the Russians back away when the resistance is heavy. They back away, and then surround. They want to "capture" Ukraine not destroy it. They also want to "capture" the Ukraine military, not destroy them, because they will need them to defend their own country after the corrupt government is deposed by the Russians. That is why they aren't leveling buildings, the electricity is still on, the water system is still clean and functioning, the internet is still working, and any other public facilities and services are still working.

The Ukrain citizens are fairly safe from the Russians as long as they keep their distance. They are more endangered by their own government trying to take all men 18-60yo "into custody" (even stopping city busses and pulling them off the buss) and forcing them into the military,...where they then can be a target of the Russians.

 

[logicallefty]

The Ukrain citizens are fairly safe from the Russians as long as they keep their distance. They are more endangered by their own government trying to take all men 18-60yo "into custody" (even stopping city busses and pulling them off the buss) and forcing them into the military,...where they then can be a target of the Russians.

Yes, exactly. Lets try and kill off as many of the healthy people as we can. Sounds familiar to me, dejavu, from another recent current event. Key term "NWO".

 

[EyeBRollin]

Yes. They are being surgical about it as much as they can be. That is why the Russians back away when the resistance is heavy. They back away, and then surround. They want to "capture" Ukraine not destroy it. They also want to "capture" the Ukraine military, not destroy them, because they will need them to defend their own country after the corrupt government is deposed by the Russians. That is why they aren't leveling buildings, the electricity is still on, the water system is still clean and functioning, the internet is still working, and any other public facilities and services are still working.

The Ukrain citizens are fairly safe from the Russians as long as they keep their distance. They are more endangered by their own government trying to take all men 18-60yo "into custody" (even stopping city busses and pulling them off the buss) and forcing them into the military,...where they then can be a target of the Russians.

Correct me if I am wrong but this reads as Ukraine citizens should just accept a Russian takeover and Occupation.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Nothing in zekko's post said anyone should feel sorry for anybody. Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well.

It seems to me that people are trying to have a nuanced conversation about naked 21st century imperialism.

 

[PRW63]

Correct me if I am wrong but this reads as Ukraine citizens should just accept a Russian takeover and Occupation.

They are already oppressed and occupied by their own government. They are going to be oppressed and occupied no matter which way they go. Pick one. All Putin is going to do is push out the existing corrupt government and replace it with a different corrupt government that is just less pro-NATO and less anti-Russian. Then the Russians will leave and put the Ukraine military back in their place under the new government. Not much different than the US with Iraq but hopefully much less messy. There is no win-win. A win-win doesn't exist for them. There is no "win" in Socialist Regimes and Socialist Regimes is all that part of the world offers anyone. So pick one that will turn on you and kill you less often.

 

[EyeBRollin]

They are already oppressed and occupied by their own government. They are going to be oppressed and occupied no matter which way they go. Pick one. All Putin is going to do is push out the existing corrupt government and replace it with a different corrupt government that is just less pro-NATO and less anti-Russian. Then the Russians will leave and put the Ukraine military back in their place under the new government. Not much different than the US with Iraq but hopefully much less messy. There is no win-win. A win-win doesn't exist for them. There is no "win" in Socialist Regimes and Socialist Regimes is all that part of the world offers anyone. So pick one that will turn on you and kill you less often.

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

 

[corrector]

Ok so the deadly virus didnt stop to be deadly, it's just that now running the risk of death it's fine cause the protests are for a good reason?

Exactly. When you are a man of conviction then you do not worry about dying. You stand up for what is right.

 

[corrector]

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

At least the invading country doesn't view them as sub-human.

 

[PRW63]

Legitimate democracies very rarely invade each other.

Who said there were any legitimate democracies over there?...or anywhere for that matter. It is all Socialist Regimes over there.

 

[PRW63]

At least the invading country doesn't view them as sub-human.

Nearly 45%-50% of the population of Ukraine is Russian,...they consider themselves Russian,...and they speak Russian,...not Ukrainian. So, no they are not viewed as sub human,...that is just propaganda.

 

[PRW63]

Just wanted to make clear you are advocating civilians to just surrender to an occupying army from an invading country.

Back to what SamSpade said to you when he said, "Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well. "

Your inferences are your own. You have a habit of inferring and starting straw man arguments with people who are having a civil discussion. Otherwise this thread is going really well.

 

[corrector]

Nearly 45%-50% of the population of Ukraine is Russian,...they consider themselves Russian,...and they speak Russian,...not Ukrainian. So, no they are not viewed as sub human,...that is just propaganda.

That was intended a historical reference to how they were treated under the Nazis when Germany invaded them in the past. The Nazi Germans viewed them as sub-human.