What do you think to this workout split?

Eternal_water

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#1
Due to new job requirements and changes in free time availability, I find that the following will be most convenient for me.

2 full body workouts a week.

I am thinking 3 sets per exercise, the first 2 sets just shy of failure and the 3rd/final set to failure

The movements would be (in no particular order)

Squat
Deadlift
A back exercise: alternate between bent over row in one workout and pull ups in the next.
Dumbell bench press: alternate between flat in one workout and incline in the next.
Overhead Press
Dumbell curls
A tricep isolation
An Ab/Oblique exercise

As I say, 3 sets each, with the last set only to failure.

Do you think this twice a week would be enough to keep making gains?
It would certainly allow for full recovery.

Edit: In theory, I will be stimulating every muscle group twice a week instead of annihilating every muscle group once a week.
 
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TyTe`EyEz

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#2
You can definitely make gains with 2 workouts a week, but I wouldn't recommend deadlifting in both. It's too taxing on the body.

I also wouldn't try to do squats on deadlift day, unless they're light and nowhere near failure.
 

Eternal_water

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#3
You can definitely make gains with 2 workouts a week, but I wouldn't recommend deadlifting in both. It's too taxing on the body.

I also wouldn't try to do squats on deadlift day, unless they're light and nowhere near failure.
Thanks for your reply.

What If I reduced squats and deadlifts to 2 sets each?

Alternatively you are saying that my suggestion will work but do squats without deadlifts in 1 workout and deadlifts without squats in the other.

Or heavy squats with light deadlifts shy of failure 1 day and heavy deadlifts with light squats shy of failure on the other day.
 

TyTe`EyEz

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#4
Personally, I do 2 sets of deadlifts to failure, 1 day a week. That's always been enough for me to steadily add weight.

I sometimes do light squats before deads. They help me to loosen up. If you try to do too much, though, they will hinder your deadlift performance.
 

EyeBRollin

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#5
Training to failure doesn’t work. Focus on completing repetitions and increasing weight. You don’t need to do more than 5 reps.

You have the basic exercises all there. I’d ditch abs and triceps, and double up on back exercises ( you have disproportionate amount of presses; it should be 2 pulls per Press).
 

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TyTe`EyEz

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#6
When I say failure, I mean the last rep before your form is gonna break down. Never sacrifice form.
 

Macaframalama

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#7
Training to failure doesn’t work.
Doesn't work for what? If hypertrophy is the goal, it works very damm well and isn't too shabby for off-season strength/base building. @Eternal_water look into Doggcrapp/DC Training. It's very close to what you are trying to do, but much more thought out, tried and true. If you are looking to pack on quality mass and enjoy training with high intensity methods like AMRAPS, Rest-Pause, exaggerated eccentrics, etc there's no better imo. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://library.globalchalet.net/Authors/Fitness%20Collection/All%20about%20Doggcrapp%20and%20DC%20Training.doc&ved=0ahUKEwiL_ej4m_DaAhWn8YMKHT3cAF0QFggzMAU&usg=AOvVaw1j-mc6wt0Q7ZWT0wkFOCkG
There's also a massive collection of information on the forum to mine over at intensemuscle.com.
 

EyeBRollin

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#8
If you want quality mass, you have to build quality strength. Mass without strength is useless, and it's actually harder to come by. The quickest way to build mass is to build strength. Do the major lifts. If you Squat / Deadlift / Military Press / Bench Press / Pullup your way to failure every workout, your body will be screaming for mercy. 5X5, or even 3X5 plans are sufficient.
 

Macaframalama

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#9
If you want quality mass, you have to build quality strength. Mass without strength is useless, and it's actually harder to come by. The quickest way to build mass is to build strength. Do the major lifts. If you Squat / Deadlift / Military Press / Bench Press / Pullup your way to failure every workout, your body will be screaming for mercy. 5X5, or even 3X5 plans are sufficient.
I tend to lean towards agreeing with this mostly, except going to failure with the exception of deadlifting. The key is in minimal volume, a bit higher frequency, but spread out further than a normal 7 day week. It works extremely well for genetically explosive lifters, older lifters, larger lifters and those that just downright enjoy that style of training. Throw in exaggerated eccentrics and injury is almost non existent. Amraps have been around, created by a military doc and studied since the first world war if I'm not mistaken. The world's most popular strength program uses amraps as the basic template, Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 and provides probably more anecdotal evidence of thousands of users, than just about any other program I've seen. You are right about the relationship in regards to strength and hypertrophy, but it is not a one way street. A bigger muscle has the potential of being a stronger muscle and vice versa. This is where periodization comes to light. One can't train the same methods year round and expect growth. Training to metabolic/technical failure can indeed fvck you up, but there's little else that rivals the method in both hypertrophy AND strength gains. All it takes is a little common sense in approach. One is going to have to employ the maximal effort method at some point, lest he plateaus or worse, regress. Amraps are one way for those that are volume sensitive as I mentioned above. Lifting at intensities above 85% is the other. Both methods can be dangerous or they can be safe, given one is knowledgeable in approach.
 

EyeBRollin

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#10
One can't train the same methods year round and expect growth. Training to metabolic/technical failure can indeed fvck you up, but there's little else that rivals the method in both hypertrophy AND strength gains. All it takes is a little common sense in approach. One is going to have to employ the maximal effort method at some point, lest he plateaus or worse, regress.
Actually you can train the same exact way all year round and grow. You just have to add weight progressively over time. Training to failure is not required to build strength.
 
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Macaframalama

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#11
Actually you can train the same exact way all year round and grow. You just have to add weight progressively over time.
I assume you are still novice/early-intermediate level and/or unfamiliar with the Law of Accomodation.?.? If it were as easy as just "adding weight progressively over time doing the same thing, literally every successful strength athlete in the world would have done so. You are going to be hard pressed finding evidence to the contrary, wether anecdotal or scientific, but I would be interested in any quotes or study sitings you may find.
Training to failure is not required to build strength.
I never said that it was, but it's one way of applying the principle of progressive overload and a damn good one at that.
 

EyeBRollin

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#12
I assume you are still novice/early-intermediate level and/or unfamiliar with the Law of Accomodation.?.?
You'd assume wrong. I've gained 30 lbs of muscle in 4 years, without ever touching drugs. Progressive overload is the tried and true method for natural lifters to gain strength.

If it were as easy as just "adding weight progressively over time doing the same thing, literally every successful strength athlete in the world would have done so.
The majority of "successful strength athletes" (crossfit athletes, powerlifters, bodybuilders, and fitness models) take steroids. Don't encourage others to train like them; it doesn't work without the drugs.

You are going to be hard pressed finding evidence to the contrary, wether anecdotal or scientific, but I would be interested in any quotes or study sitings you may find.

I never said that it was, but it's one way of applying the principle of progressive overload and a damn good one at that.
Gaining muscle isn't rocket science. Add weight, over time. Consistency + progressive overload = gains.
 

PeasantPlayer

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#13
I was going to try this workout

The Rep Goal Progression

These programs are based on a very simplistic progression system. You have a set rep goal you need to reach within the allowed number of sets, before you can add weight to the lift. So if we take squats for instance, where we have 4 sets with a rep goal of 32. Set 1 you may get 10 reps, Set 2: 9 reps, Set 3: 7 reps and Set 4: 6 reps... and then add some weight the next time you're squatting. 5, 10 or even 20 pounds, depending on the lift and what you're comfortable with. If you're failling to reach the rep goal, you simply stay with the same weight until you hit it. This kind of progression makes it far more self regulated than the average novice routine, which means you can stick with it for longer.

The Fullbody Routine

You run it with the standard rest day between the training days, taking two days off after each round.

Day 1
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Bench Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Barbell Row - 3 sets - 25 reps
Seated Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Seated DB Press/Military Press - 2 sets - 20 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns - 3 sets - 30 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Day 2
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Close-grip T-bar or Cable Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lateral Raises/Barbell Shrugs - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each

Day 3
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Bench Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Barbell Row - 3 sets - 25 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Seated DB Press or Military Press - 2 sets - 20 reps
Close-grip Pulldowns - 3 sets - 30 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

The Upper/Lower Split

Upper 1/Lower 1/Off/Upper 2/Lower 2/Off/Off and repeat...

Upper Day 1
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
One-arm Cable or DB Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 30 reps each

Lower Day 1
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hack Squat - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Single-leg Leg Press - 3 sets - 35 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Upper Day 2
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lateral Raises/Barbell Shrugs - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Overhead Cable Extensions/Cable Hammer Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each

Lower Day 2
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Extensions/Leg Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

The Upper/Lower/Pull/Push/Legs Split

Upper/Lower/Off/Pull/Push/Legs/Off and repeat

Upper Day
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each

Lower Day
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hack Squat - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Single-leg Leg Press - 3 sets - 35 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Pull Day
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
T-bar, Cable or DB Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Close-grip Puldowns - 3 sets - 35 reps
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each
Barbell Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hammer Curls, Cable or DB - 3 sets - 35 reps

Push Day
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Cable Crossovers - 3 sets - 40 reps
Lateral Raises - 3 sets - 30 reps
Skullcrushers - 3 sets - 30 reps
Overhead Cable Extensions - 3 sets - 35 reps

Leg Day
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Extensions/Leg Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each


Hope you'll enjoy these programs and I'm all ears for your response.
 

Macaframalama

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#14
Progressive overload is the tried and true method for natural lifters to gain strength.
Never said it wasn't, still doesn't negate the law of accommodation and really has nothing to do with the conversation. No one is disputing that.
The majority of "successful strength athletes" (crossfit athletes, powerlifters, bodybuilders, and fitness models) take steroids. Don't encourage others to train like them; it doesn't work without the drugs.
Now you are speaking out your ass and spewing bullchit. Show me where I encouraged anyone to train like an enhanced athlete. To the contrary. I suggested a low volume, moderate frequency program.
Gaining muscle isn't rocket science.
Duuuuhhhhh.... Things are still going to have to be changed here and there over time no matter how small they seem. Muscle imbalances develop, sticking points develop, plateaus develop and programming will have to be catered to remedy this. I seriously doubt you've been lifting for 4 years or you would know this.
 
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EyeBRollin

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#15
I was going to try this workout

The Rep Goal Progression

These programs are based on a very simplistic progression system. You have a set rep goal you need to reach within the allowed number of sets, before you can add weight to the lift. So if we take squats for instance, where we have 4 sets with a rep goal of 32. Set 1 you may get 10 reps, Set 2: 9 reps, Set 3: 7 reps and Set 4: 6 reps... and then add some weight the next time you're squatting. 5, 10 or even 20 pounds, depending on the lift and what you're comfortable with. If you're failling to reach the rep goal, you simply stay with the same weight until you hit it. This kind of progression makes it far more self regulated than the average novice routine, which means you can stick with it for longer.

The Fullbody Routine

You run it with the standard rest day between the training days, taking two days off after each round.

Day 1
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Bench Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Barbell Row - 3 sets - 25 reps
Seated Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Seated DB Press/Military Press - 2 sets - 20 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns - 3 sets - 30 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Day 2
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Close-grip T-bar or Cable Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lateral Raises/Barbell Shrugs - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each

Day 3
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Bench Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Barbell Row - 3 sets - 25 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Seated DB Press or Military Press - 2 sets - 20 reps
Close-grip Pulldowns - 3 sets - 30 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

The Upper/Lower Split

Upper 1/Lower 1/Off/Upper 2/Lower 2/Off/Off and repeat...

Upper Day 1
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
One-arm Cable or DB Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 30 reps each

Lower Day 1
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hack Squat - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Single-leg Leg Press - 3 sets - 35 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Upper Day 2
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lateral Raises/Barbell Shrugs - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Overhead Cable Extensions/Cable Hammer Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each

Lower Day 2
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Extensions/Leg Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

The Upper/Lower/Pull/Push/Legs Split

Upper/Lower/Off/Pull/Push/Legs/Off and repeat

Upper Day
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
Barbell Curl/Skullcrushers - 3 supersets - 30 reps each
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each

Lower Day
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Deadlift - 2 sets - 12 reps
or
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hack Squat - 3 sets - 30 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Single-leg Leg Press - 3 sets - 35 reps
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each

Pull Day
Barbell Row - 4 sets - 32 reps
Wide-grip Pulldowns or Pullups - 3 sets - 30 reps
T-bar, Cable or DB Rows - 3 sets - 30 reps
Close-grip Puldowns - 3 sets - 35 reps
Straight-arm Pulldowns/Facepulls - 3 supersets - 40 reps each
Barbell Curls - 3 sets - 30 reps
Hammer Curls, Cable or DB - 3 sets - 35 reps

Push Day
Bench Press - 4 sets - 32 reps
Military Press - 3 sets - 25 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Cable Crossovers - 3 sets - 40 reps
Lateral Raises - 3 sets - 30 reps
Skullcrushers - 3 sets - 30 reps
Overhead Cable Extensions - 3 sets - 35 reps

Leg Day
Back Squat - 4 sets - 32 reps
Romanian DL - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Press - 3 sets - 30 reps
Leg Extensions/Leg Curls - 3 supersets - 35 reps each
Abs/Calves Superset - 3 sets each - 40 reps each


Hope you'll enjoy these programs and I'm all ears for your response.
It’s way too much volume and there are a ton of redundancies. For example, Military Press following Bench Press will just cause premature failures on the Military Press and eventually overtraining your shoulders. They are the same motion just a different angle (horizontal push vs vertical push). Do them on different days.

This workout plan is really just wasting a ton of time in the gym. Leg Day, for example only needs Back Squats and some form of Deadlifts. Lunges are sufficient for accessory work, but you really hit everything in the leg well with Squats and Deadlifts, and they are both incredibly taxing exercises.

Multiple day body part splits are doomed to failure for the average recreational lifter, as they won’t be able to devote so much time per week to the gym, sleep, and nutritional demands. Focus on a simpler routine with just the major exercises (Bench, Squat, Military Press, Pull-ups, Rows, Deadlifts).
 
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PeasantPlayer

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#16
The full body routine one seems interesting
It’s way too much volume and there are a ton of redundancies. For example, Military Press following Bench Press will just cause premature failures on the Military Press and eventually overtraining your shoulders. They are the same motion just a different angle (horizontal push vs vertical push). Do them on different days.

This workout plan is really just wasting a ton of time in the gym. Leg Day, for example only needs Back Squats and some form of Deadlifts. Lunges are sufficient for accessory work, but you really hit everything in the leg well with Squats and Deadlifts, and they are both incredibly taxing exercises.

Multiple day body part splits are doomed to failure for the average recreational lifter, as they won’t be able to devote so much time per week to the gym, sleep, and nutritional demands. Focus on a simpler routine with just the major exercises (Bench, Squat, Military Press, Pull-ups, Rows, Deadlifts).
I got this from bodybuilding.com. I was doing another one on there it was more simple

A Simple beginner's Routine
You will do 3 work outs per week on non consecutive days. The first work out is your heavy work out. The second work out is your medium work out, use 10% less weight for your work sets. The final work out for the week is your lite work out, use 20% less weight.

Do a lite warm up with 1/4 of your work sets weight. Do a medium warm up with 1/2 of your work sets weight. Do 2 work sets with the same weight. Choose a starting weight and start light.

These are the seven exercises you will be starting with.

Squats
Bench Presses
Bent-Over Rows
Overhead Barbell Presses
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Barbell Curls
Calf Raises

You will be running this program on a five week cycle as follows:
The first week do all 4 sets for 8 reps.
The second week do all 4 sets for 9 reps.
The third week do all 4 sets for 10 reps.
The fourth week do all 4 sets for 11 reps.
The fifth week do all 4 sets for 12 reps.
If you got all of the required reps on the fifth week then increase the weight by 10% and

repeat the cycle. If you didn't get all of the reps on the fifth week then repeat the cycle with the same weight. You shouldn't need more than one minute rest between the warm up sets and you shouldn't need more than one minute thirty seconds between the work sets.
Do some cardio and abs work on non weight training days.
 

EyeBRollin

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#17
That’s still a ton of volume. You’re talking a minimum of 96 reps of each exercise per week. If you can do that with any sort of long term consistency, you most likely aren’t lifting heavy weights.
 

PeasantPlayer

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#18
That’s still a ton of volume. You’re talking a minimum of 96 reps of each exercise per week. If you can do that with any sort of long term consistency, you most likely aren’t lifting heavy weights.
did it for 5 months with a poor diet. What do you suggest? Im trying to get lean and ripped
 

Macaframalama

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#19
Im trying to get lean and ripped
Focus on your diet. There's no magic bullet routine around this. Those routines are very bad too. There's literally tons of tried and true programs out there, with forums full of asked and answered questions and feedback etc. BB'ing.com isn't one of them imo. Tnation has a pretty large handful of knowledgeable users and the coaches forums are a treasure trove. Intensemuscle, elitefts, jimwendler.com, jts, Joshbryant.com. You will get much further, without spinning your wheels jumping on a cookie cutter routine and sticking with it long enough, until you get a feel for what works and learning about programming in the process and be able to write your own. If you're dead set on DUP, the cube method is hard to beat. Massive iron 531 method is good too, I would just drop some of the redundant assistance work.
 
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