Trump... Epitome of alpha.

[samspade]

Socialist president gives socialist bailout (your government-pilfered money) to farmers for socialist market rigging introduced by socialist president:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...hurt-by-trade-war-says-theyll-win-in-end.html

This is where we are now. A president who is wielding the government in ways Bernie Sanders could only dream of. Suppress competition, and take other people's money to help those screwed by our policies - because election!

There is nothing inherently wrong with socialism - it's just another -ism and some countries have used it well in moderation. Donald Trump is clearly not a free market man. I don't really have anything against him, but I just don't understand why people don't see him for what he is. He is Big Government in the flesh.

 

[speed dawg]

Socialist president gives socialist bailout (your government-pilfered money) to farmers for socialist market rigging introduced by socialist president:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...hurt-by-trade-war-says-theyll-win-in-end.html

This is where we are now. A president who is wielding the government in ways Bernie Sanders could only dream of. Suppress competition, and take other people's money to help those screwed by our policies - because election!

There is nothing inherently wrong with socialism - it's just another -ism and some countries have used it well in moderation. Donald Trump is clearly not a free market man. I don't really have anything against him, but I just don't understand why people don't see him for what he is. He is Big Government in the flesh.

Any time you make big changes to fix something, there is some short-term pain. Over the long haul, things will stabilize.

There's no suppression of competition. It's making the foreigners play fair. That's what government is supposed to do.

At least Trump is attempting to help. He certainly is not entitled to do it. We've been benefiting from cheap foreign crap in this country for a long, long time.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Tariffs are ultimately paid by the consumer, just like any other tax. And taxing a business until it dies, for the greater good of course, sounds a lot like socialism to me.


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_4b231618-f068-541f-8d79-d0e95c39c419.html
In southeast Missouri's Trump Country, a manufacturer wrestles with the negative side of Trump's tariffs

....Within a few weeks of the start of the tariffs, sales had fallen by 50 percent. Company officials say much of its lost business went to cheaper imported Chinese nails.

“It’s chaotic, and there’s some incompetence involved” in how the tariffs have been implemented, McCaskill told company officials as she toured the plant. “They’re chasing your customers into China’s arms.”

Its profits falling, Mid Continent laid off 60 workers in mid-June. It publicly warned that another 200 of its roughly 500 total employees could go by the end of July. And it opened the possibility of folding completely if something didn’t change.

The company is asking the Commerce Department for an exemption to the tariffs for its supplier, but so are thousands of other companies. Barring that, it says, the plant might relocate to Mexico to escape the effects of the tariffs.

 

[samspade]

@Danger and @speeddawg, Well, we disagree on some key functions of what government is supposed to do, and what is socialist vs. free market.

And, maybe it will work out in the long term, who knows. I don't have all the answers. Market meddling, then handing out money to the farmers whose livelihoods he admitted to damaging, is more like something out of the Stalin/Mao playbook than Ronald Reagan or Cal Coolidge.

There doesn't seem to be much difference at all between the two parties - both are eager to use the force of government to take and redistribute, and to interfere. Trump is much closer to a liberal Democrat in terms of economic policy.

 

[samspade]

2. Unmanaged change is bad, managed change is necessary and good

This is where we disagree. That's binary thinking, bro. Change happens in the free market. Government can try to "manage" it using our resources, but it is not always automatically good.

And like Bible says, tariffs are paid by consumers like all taxes. In the end, it is taking money out of people's pockets and restricting options.

Making foreigners "play fair" - fair's got nothing to do with it.

 

[Bible_Belt]

LOL! Taxing imports won't kill those foreign businesses.

Man, the mind blowing pretzel logic from lefties just blows my mind.

So, Mid-Continent Nail in Poplar Bluff, Missouri...do they not really exist? That must be fake news, right? Anything that makes Trump look bad must be fake. All of those laid-off workers must really be paid actors working for CNN. The conspiracy is vast!

 

[samspade]

Binary thinking is "yes or no". Saying that managing change to the final outcome is not even close to binary. It means Shocking the system with too much change at once can be damaging.

Fair and strategy has everything to do with it. Again, the world is not about just paying the lowest price. In some cases it is strategically very dangerous to do so.

Hey Danger, I was referring to your notion that one thing is bad, the other, good. Shades of Animal Farm.

And yeah, the world IS about paying the lowest price for the best value. Every cost and benefit is what this world is about - it's an evolutionary fact. What you're factoring in is the feeling of "was this made in America by a blue collar worker?" And to many people, that does figure in to their purchase. I've made purchases based in part on emotion or sentimentality, if you will, so that makes sense. But therein lies the value of the commodity or service.

I get what you're saying about cheap junk. Personally, I don't find fulfillment in all the stupid shyt this country consumes. But, the single biggest expense of most employers, and any manufacturer, is labor. Labor is cheaper in other countries. Whether this is "fair" or not is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it is simply a fact. The president's actions are facts, too, an attempt to counter the fact that companies would rather pay pennies on the dollar for workers. I guess how I see this is, the market speaks, and speaks loudly, whether we like it on an individual basis or not. The government - our government - sees "issues" embedded in this, especially when there are elections on the horizon. BUT - to be fair, the electorate is a "market," too. It's just that it's voting on how to take, rather than how to produce.

I'll give you and Trump this though - the economy is doing fine overall. So maybe his policies are sound after all, and maybe a trade war is healthy. I hope I"m being as open minded as I can on this. Though I wonder if you were as gung ho about Obama's tariffs on Chinese tires, which cost American consumers $900,000 for every job they created? Did you cast your vote for Mr. Obama in 2012 for his sworn protection of the American worker and his sense of fair play?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Russia's goals are the same as those of the US, China, or any other aspiring super power - control and influence. Russia is a mafia state based on pillaging the country's natural resources, mostly oil. When Russia has control of an area of the world, those people buy Russian oil. Russia is in Syria for the same reason we are, which is to get an oil pipeline built. But we each have different pipelines planned, which serve each country's different oil interests. Trump's ass-kissing to North Korea is another bonus for the Russians, because they are the ones cheating on the sanctions and eager to sell oil to the North Koreans. When our Great Leader sat down with their Great Leader, that put a scum bag dictator on the same level as the US president. The sanctions are now crumbling, advantage: Rocket Man and Vlad.

The United States is falling apart by handing over our country to the corporations, who now, thanks to the right wing Supremes that are about to go drastically further to the right, enjoy the rights that only real people used to have, such as freedom of speech and political expression. The Roberts court has been systematic about empowering corporations over people, and it will only get worse. We have a separation of wealth at the moment that simply cannot last forever. The billionaires have all the money, and the rest of us are their slaves. That's how the US is crumbling from within, and our world influence is shrinking. Vlad sees all of that happening and is positioning his country to take over as we fall.

I'm wondering if Trump wants a hyper-inflation... to re-boot the economic system, and cancel the debt. Bailing out the farmers, massive tax cuts, more consumer spending fueled by credit... soon we'll see helicopter drops. ha ha

Because as it stands now, the US economy is in danger of getting crucified by deflation.... like most countries.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I'll give you and Trump this though - the economy is doing fine overall. So maybe his policies are sound after all, and maybe a trade war is healthy. I hope I"m being as open minded as I can on this. Though I wonder if you were as gung ho about Obama's tariffs on Chinese tires, which cost American consumers $900,000 for every job they created? Did you cast your vote for Mr. Obama in 2012 for his sworn protection of the American worker and his sense of fair play?

Boom before the bust?

 

[speed dawg]

Do you care to elaborate on your denial that Trump is weakening international alliances? Those alliances are what has kept peace with Russia since WW2, by serving as a check on Russia's power. So when our president, who is, to use your wording, IGNORANT, MISINFORMED, (and) DELUSIONAL insults NATO, the UK, and Germany all in one trip, while kissing Putin's ass on an international stage, how does that not all serve the interests of Russia?

The last I checked, the commies are the bad guys. And a president who hands over his country to them is a traitor. This is how military coups happen - the president is a traitor to his country and his generals forcefully remove him from office, while we still have a country left. It has never happened in the US, but there is a first time for everything.

It's been easy to hold Russia down the past few decades, they weakened themselves with all their socialism. Now, Putin's in charge, and he has balls, and Russia is rising. Got nothing to do with us.

LOL at "handing over our country to them". Another LOL at "kissing Putin's ass". That's not what I saw. He's simply trying to establish a good relationship with them. Trump is the first president in years that Putin actually respects.

NATO has become the liberal, and Russia is the one rising in strength. Talk about irony. Liberalism ruins everything.

Bible_Belt....sorry man, but I think you've just decided to be on the other side. You're not very open-minded at the moment.

 

[speed dawg]

Tariffs are ultimately paid by the consumer, just like any other tax. And taxing a business until it dies, for the greater good of course, sounds a lot like socialism to me.


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_4b231618-f068-541f-8d79-d0e95c39c419.html
In southeast Missouri's Trump Country, a manufacturer wrestles with the negative side of Trump's tariffs

....Within a few weeks of the start of the tariffs, sales had fallen by 50 percent. Company officials say much of its lost business went to cheaper imported Chinese nails.

“It’s chaotic, and there’s some incompetence involved” in how the tariffs have been implemented, McCaskill told company officials as she toured the plant. “They’re chasing your customers into China’s arms.”

Its profits falling, Mid Continent laid off 60 workers in mid-June. It publicly warned that another 200 of its roughly 500 total employees could go by the end of July. And it opened the possibility of folding completely if something didn’t change.

The company is asking the Commerce Department for an exemption to the tariffs for its supplier, but so are thousands of other companies. Barring that, it says, the plant might relocate to Mexico to escape the effects of the tariffs.

Backwards logic.

The tariffs are intended to weaken just this sort of thing. They've been counting their profits all this time, while using cheap Chinese garbage materials, like many other companies. Now, just like everyone else, they have a decision to make. They can make a better product, or move their product to Mexico and continue to make the crappy product. This McCaskill person is pressing the panic/fear button like so many others. Buy from American companies, it's that simple. Prices will go up temporarily, until some competition emerges, then they will stabilize.

Again, good change always prompts some bad before the longer period of good. I'm seeing this in my business too. It's temporary. Will be better in the long run.

 

[samspade]

I am not talking about feelings on whether it was American Made.

I am referring to costs which most leftists are not measuring.

What is the cost of losing our IP to other countries?

What is the cost of us not retaliating in a trade war?

What is the cost of allowing socialist and communist countries to strengthen their manufacturing at our expense?

First - What does IP stand for?

Those are all fair questions, anyway.

Your last question is essentially questioning competition:

What is the cost of allowing socialist and communist countries to strengthen their manufacturing at our expense?

The cost is loss of manufacturing. Pretty simple.

In the market, one does now "allow," or forbid (its opposite). If you open a lemonade stand, you compete with the lemonade stand down the street. Unless you're more interested in Stalinist, state-induced strongarm tactics. Which then makes your question ironic, since the tactics are as socialist as the countries with which you're competing.

So then, the question really is, do you favor Stalinist intervention when things don't go your way, or are you willing to give competition a go? Because everything has a cost. If you don't have an answer for cost, you should not be in business.

 

[speed dawg]

In the market, one does now "allow," or forbid (its opposite). If you open a lemonade stand, you compete with the lemonade stand down the street. Unless you're more interested in Stalinist, state-induced strongarm tactics. Which then makes your question ironic, since the tactics are as socialist as the countries with which you're competing.

Other countries are doing it, basically because they can, because Americans want cheap crap.

So then, the question really is, do you favor Stalinist intervention when things don't go your way, or are you willing to give competition a go? Because everything has a cost. If you don't have an answer for cost, you should not be in business.

Some government intervention is OK and is needed. Trump is trying to simply even the playing field.

What will happen, is the cheapest of the cheap will still be made overseas. What we need to keep here, is the higher end stuff that requires a higher skilled worker.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Just because everything at Wal-Mart is made in China, people think that means the US doesn't export anything. We are in fact a huge exporter of goods, but most of them are raw materials and agricultural products. I live in farm country. The three crops here are corn, soybeans, and some wheat. The soybeans go almost entirely to China, much of the wheat is exported around the world as well. The corn gets fed to hogs and cattle to produce meat, which largely goes to....drum roll please....China and other foreign countries.

American farmers will be the first ones taking it on the chin due to Trump's ignorant trade policies. This country is not an island. If we seal ourselves off from the rest of the world, we'll start a new dark age and fall behind other countries, leaving us vulnerable to collapse or invasion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/30/tys...ghts-trade-policies-for-gloomier-outlook.html
Tyson shares dive 7% after the company cuts profit outlook because of tariffs

 

[Bible_Belt]

Trump killing farm profits with his ignorance is not a change of subject. Great Leader opens his mouth and soybean prices drop 20%, corn is down 15-20% and that is just the immediate drop. It's going to get worse. Put all the farmers out of business and we won't even be able to feed that military of ours.

https://thesouthern.com/news/local/...cle_d9bb23e6-6725-5517-831b-273a3798989b.html
Local farmers appreciate Trump's $12 billion in ag aid, but wish they didn't need it
....I’d rather have my market than have a band aid,”

....“I would rather have trade than aid,”

....U.S. Sen. Durbin didn’t mince words in his criticism of not just the aid money but the tariff’s themselves.
“Bailouts, tweets, and bragging won’t save the lost crop value for our farmers and won’t protect their reputations around the world as reliable sellers,” Durbin said in a press release. “The president’s scorched earth trade war has put a lot at stake for Illinois and our rural economy.”

 

[speed dawg]

It ignores all of my points noted and brings up a different topic, so yes that is a subject change.

As I said earlier, change can be bad, but managed change is fine. The agricultural industry is now temporarily undergoing change as work is done to fix our trade issues.

This is why Trump put in temporary subsidies to allow for managed change in the process.

Completely reasonable, as are his changes towards strengthening our key strategic resources and manufacturing.

Hard decisions. But desperately needed. Those are the decisions Trump is making right now. The decisions Obama was too weak to make.

We will all benefit over the long haul, but the next Democrat president will take credit for it, while ruining the economy in the process, requiring a new Republican to come in and fix it. All the while they'll be crying on national TV wondering how he got elected when all their polls said there was no chance.

 

[brexit]

The best president ever LOL

 

[Bible_Belt]

This tweet was a real gem, especially the comments to it. California is on fire because they have trees and rivers. If we would just cut down all the trees....and I'm not sure what one does to get rid of a river but we should do that too....then we wouldn't have fires. Silly liberals and their trees!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1026228024403021824

California wildfires are being magnified & made so much worse by the bad environmental laws which aren’t allowing massive amount of readily available water to be properly utilized. It is being diverted into the Pacific Ocean. Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!

 

[Bible_Belt]

Even the NYT acknowledges tree clearing as a strong fire prevention technique. Not sure why anyone would think that is crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...widlfires/harvesting-trees-will-prevent-fires

The Times has to publish a right wing nut ball every once in a while. Note that was from 2012. Otherwise people would accuse them of being the "liberal media."

H. Sterling Burnett is a senior fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis.

from the comments:
This from Wikipedia on Burnett's NCPA: "The NCPA has been characterized as a 'right wing think tank' by organizations including People for the American Way, a politically liberal advocacy organization, which noted that NCPA funding has come from foundations with a conservative orientation such as Bradley, Scaife, Koch, John M. Olin Foundation, Earhart Foundation, Castle Rock, and the JM Foundation."

I do also like the other comment that likens letting the logging companies loose to clear cut the forests to prevent fires is akin to draining lakes so that people don't drown in them. Destroying wilderness and enriching corporations is always the answer for Republicans.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Nothing in that article says it is a good idea to let the logging companies cut down the forests as a way to stop wildfires. It is scrub and undergrowth that causes fires, as the article states, and not simply that trees exist. The article says more funding is needed for fire prevention, and Trump is probably hard at work finding a way to slash what funding already exists.