success rate drops when I open my mouth

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

Imagine a gigachad (gigadon?) who speaks with a lisp, and how he perceives interactions with women.

That's an exaggeration of my situation.

I'm not a don juan, or a gigachad, or even a chad. But I get strong eye contact from like 80% of the women I'm attracted to. In situations where talking is inappropriate (libraries, bookstores, etc) I routinely end up in extended mirroring/body-language flirts. Women follow me around the gym. I'm really, really good at vibing without speaking.

Unfortunately once I start talking to them, that 80% drops to somewhere around 20%, and I'm getting numbers from less than 10%. The longer I talk to them before asking the worse my results are! I'm pretty sure it's something about the way I talk or my voice. I don't speak with a lisp or have any speech impediments. No accent either; I live in the US and grew up in a region known for having "no accent / neutral accent".

Any ideas on how to narrow down what the problem is? Hypotheses+tests welcome.

I don't use canned openers/lines, except on very rare occasions when it's the only way to avoid breaking the three-second rule. Pretty much every approach is context-dependent, although if I'm lazy or can't come up with anything I'll just say "hi, my name is <name>" and look into her eyes until she replies. This works surprisingly well. But after that it's all downhill.

I'm particularly curious to know if it's something about my voice. I don't have a deep voice but it's not high-pitched either; I'm a tenor and Vocular says I sound like a mix of Johnny Depp and Robert Downy Jr (sounds plausible). I am casually interested in voice-deepening interventions and can afford them but I'd like to know if the benefit will be worth the risks.

I'm past the age where nightclubs are an option, and besides if I have to shout in order for people to hear me I'd rather just dance than try to get laid. And I'm much better at daygame anyways. So bars/clubs with loud music probably aren't a great tool for diagnosing my situation.

Originally posted this on reddit to r/seduction. Discussion got derailed into a debate between autistic guys about autism (literally). Although I'm an intellectual and not a smooth talker or quick witted, eye contact is my strong suit and I can ramble comfortably through any awkward silences -- or create tension with purposeful silence. I have compassion for autistic dudes, but the solutions to their problems are not going to be helpful to me.

PS, this is my first post here, so: big thanks and (as always) much respect to Don Tomassi for mentioning this place. You're a hero, Rollo. You've changed so many lives.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Then spend less time talking to them.

Literally just open them up, tell them you find them interesting, but you have to get back to XXX since you have somewhere to be and let them know you wanted to take them out sometime and tell them to put their number in your phone and hand them your phone.

Then say "awesome, talk soon" and go back to whatever it is you are doing.

You don't get bonus points for taking longer to get a number. Your job is to get her out in person where you will have a longer timeframe to figure out how to converse properly to keep her interest.

 

[crowolf]

Check out if some of the following are present:

- Talking only about yourself
- Being overly logical in conversation: No storytelling, no enthusiasm, no emotional topics
- Being needy and supplicating (also shown in a rapport-seeking voice tone that ends on high notes)
- Smelly breath, coming from some gut infection

Some suggestions:

- Do cold reading and make suggestions instead of asking questions
- Develop your interests, and educate yourself in broad topics
- Learn how to flirt (it's about spiking it up a little bit, instead of always being like "no way! me too!")
- Try being genuinely interested in learning about the other person (Dale Carnegie's book is recommended)

 

[CornbreadFed]

Go see a doctor

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Sounds like you've got a pretty boring personality.

Impossible to tell without seeing you in actual action.

 

[Clockwerk50]

This is a bit confusing. What kind of success are you actually having if, by your own admission, you’re rarely closing the deal in the first place?

The easiest way to test your voice hypothesis is to record a short audio clip and have unbiased people evaluate it. That will tell you fairly quickly whether your voice is actually the issue.

Overall, there are too many variables to conclude why you’re not succeeding. It could be your appearance, your body language, your conversational skills, what you’re saying, your confidence, how long these conversations are, the type of women you’re approaching, whether they’re available or interested, whether you’re accurately reading IOIs, your hunting grounds aren’t ideal, and more. Without isolating those variables, it’s impossible to know what’s actually holding you back.

You can message @BPH since he runs a dating business for more information if you would like to isolate these issues.

 

[BPH]

@ApocalypticBroccoli what @Clockwerk50 said is true, and most of my clients have come from this forum, but I'll see what I can do with the information you've provided.

First of all, Reddit is a terrible place to get dating advice. I used to go on there and OFFER dating advice, but people would rather be fed lies that sound good, rather than take an honest look in the mirror to realize THEY might be the problem.

We can expand on that idea a little bit here...

It would help to provide a LOT more context. You've described yourself as a "gigachad with a lisp". What does that look like? How tall are you? How much do you weigh? What do you look like? What is your ethnicity? All of these things have the potential to play a role in your success, or lack thereof. Further, you mention that you're "past the age" where bars and clubs are an option, and prefer daygame (strongly disagree with that idea, because the ROI on approaching women going about their day is going to be MUCH lower than doing it in environments specifically built for singles to interact). So how old are you?

As a matter of fact, the only real information we have here is that you're located in Phoenix. I visited Scottsdale and did not have the best time, but it's not like you don't have a wider dating pool than if you were located in Wilmington like I am.

Either way, the best way to answer your questions would just be to record yourself talking. Awkward as that may be, seeing/hearing is believing, and you can only do so much to describe your problems through text. There have been countless times where guys have TOLD me what their problems were, but it wasn't until I actually SAW/HEARD what they were doing that I understood WHY they had those problems.

 

[retardedautist2020]

>Claims to be a gigachad
>Has a lisp
>Women lose interest

What’s your trauma? Alcoholic father? Abusive mother? If you say there’s no trauma, you’re a liar.

 

[Prepostereax]

Could be on the money here

Smelly breath

Reminds me of this consultant brought in one time, good looking, fit, polite.. Could be a 1%er
Except he had this pungent bo, like he was on DMSO.
I couldn't stand to be around him, I gave him whatever info he needed asap so he could scram.
and since he was an outsider, everyone was probably too polite to tell him

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Answer some of @BPH 's questions. Especially your age & your appearance. There are plenty of singles in PHX metro. I know.

 

[Tilex]

Probably less of a voice problem and more of an escalation problem.
You never mentioned how you escalate into a sexual frame.
If you have problems touching women, then you're keeping yourself in the friend zone automatically.

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

It would help to provide a LOT more context. You've described yourself as a "gigachad with a lisp".

Uh, that was an analogy. Let me be clear: I am not a gigachad. I am not a chad. And I do not have a lisp.

A "gigachad with a lisp" would experience women being easy to attract and flirt with, right up until he opens his mouth and starts talking. That's kinda my situation, but less extreme.

What does that look like? How tall are you? How much do you weigh? What do you look like? What is your ethnicity?

Gonna try not to doxx myself too badly here so please excuse some vagueness... from weakest to strongest:

My face is very average: I'd say 6/10, and PhotoFeeler agrees. It is what it is.

I'm white, German ancestry.

I'm 5'10" so just slightly above average height. I have very broad shoulders.

Have all my hair; no balding at all. I dress well (which is easy in Phoenix because of the sartorial standards here).

I'm in exceptionally good shape -- eight pack, v-taper, veiny/vascular biceps. I do situps hanging upside down and handstand push-ups. I'm cut, not swole. This is the only reason I can still pull 25-year-olds (with a low but nonzero success rate ofc); I'm in better shape than most American guys their age. But I know I can't keep this up forever, so I should start getting used to dating women who are closer to my age.

(strongly disagree with that idea, because the ROI on approaching women going about their day is going to be MUCH lower than doing it in environments specifically built for singles to interact). So how old are you?

Mid-40s. From the neck up, I look my age -- most people guess it correctly.

Advice from the old lady: There are plenty of singles in PHX metro. I know.

Hey I'll try the bar scene if anybody has suggestions for age-appropriate singles bars in the Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale area (or downtown Miami; I'll be travelling there a lot over the next year).

Nightlife venues here seem to fall into two categories:

1. Places for 20somethings where I look creepy (Mill Ave) unless I bring a woman my age along. The hilarious part is that when I did that at an EDM club with a female friend of mine we got unicorn approaches! I think we stumbled onto some kind of cheat code for 40-something swinger couples; too bad it's of no use to me.
2. Places where everybody shows up with a bunch of friends, so showing up alone looks weird. Most nightlife in Scottsdale is like this. My friends are not really into drinking/barscene and my guy friends are definitely not into pickup. This is the other reason I've been focused on daygame: finding a whole new group of friends is no small undertaking!

Either way, the best way to answer your questions would just be to record yourself talking. Awkward as that may be, seeing/hearing is believing, and you can only do so much to describe your problems through text. There have been countless times where guys have TOLD me what their problems were, but it wasn't until I actually SAW/HEARD what they were doing that I understood WHY they had those problems.

More excellent advice. It feels slimy, but it's actually legal in Arizona to record your own conversations without telling the other person (one-party consent state). I should probably start doing this. But since most of my pickup is daygame it happens without prior notice, and I really push myself hard to obey the three-second rule. And I would still feel like a scumbag if I did this.

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

(One of my replies is stuck awaiting moderator review for some reason)

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

Then spend less time talking to them.

Literally just open them up, tell them you find them interesting, but you have to get back to XXX since you have somewhere to be

...

You don't get bonus points for taking longer to get a number.

This is fantastic advice; thank you.

I keep telling myself I need to use time constraints more, and I keep forgetting to in the moment.

Maybe I can tattoo it on the back of my hand or something.

 

[BeExcellent]

There is an old thread here you would do well to read/study. It gives the details of where to go in PHX. It was written by SW15, a long time contributor here who unfortunately passed away unexpectedly last year (perhaps earlier this year)....but his thread goes into the best venues around here. And it also addresses many of your questions. I contributed, so did many others.

Use your search function. Author is SW15, thread title is "Observations on Phoenix Scene".

I stink at copying links (I'm old, lol, sorry) but perhaps one of the guys can paste the link in here for reference.

What is your goal with meeting women? To be a playboy, to have a friend with benefits, a girlfriend, a wife?

And what do you do for a living and what kind of financial means do you have? It matters. Read the thread I mentioned and the why gets discussed.

Nobody here will blow sunshine up your rear end. If you want to date 20 years younger, you are going to have to have some serious draw for much younger women, that typically means exceptional good looks, or exceptional financial means combined with great social skills (which seem thus far to be lacking).

The avatar is a photo of me, by the way. In my 50s. Read the Observations on Phoenix Scene thread. It may answer many of your questions.

Welcome.

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

- Talking only about yourself

No.

- Smelly breath, coming from some gut infection

Definitely not. One of my plates is the type that would make fun of me for it and then refuse to kiss me.

- Being overly logical in conversation: No storytelling, no enthusiasm,

Maybe. Storytelling is easy for me; enthusiasm is still not "automatic" for me but when it happens yeah I see the results. I should focus on practicing that.

no emotional topics

This is the part of Game that I struggle with the most. I understand what this means; I just struggle to find topics that I have strong emotions about that are appropriate to bring up. I.e. not: politics, decentralization, toxic social media, or the philosophy of AI. These are topics that I'm emotionally invested in, but for obvious reasons they don't make good discussion topics with a woman you've just met.

The one thing I've heard a lot that I don't understand is a phrase that comes up a lot: "pushing womens' emotional buttons" (they like this). I used to have a plate that would start a (small) fight with me, over the most ridiculous things, every time she came over to smash. Like, single every time. I figured out pretty quick that she needed emotional activation to get aroused, and I gave it to her, and lo it was awesome. But it's much easier to do that in the context of somebody you already know and are intimate with. I knew how to get under her skin and could say pretty much anything without looking like a creep.

Has anybody written an essay/book/chapter with lots of examples of "pushing womens' emotional buttons" when you've just met them? I feel like I could benefit from seeing or reading about a bunch of examples of how you do this with somebody you don't know well and have just met. Not looking for canned lines; just need to see a lot of examples so I can interpolate from that.

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

There is an old thread here you would do well to read/study. It gives the details of where to go in PHX. It was written by SW15, a long time contributor here who unfortunately passed away unexpectedly last year (perhaps earlier this year)....but his thread goes into the best venues around here. And it also addresses many of your questions. I contributed, so did many others.

Use your search function. Author is SW15, thread title is "Observations on Phoenix Scene".

Found it: sosuave.net/forum/threads/observations-on-phoenixs-scene.273793/

(had to mangle the url because as a new user the moderation blocking of my posts is on a hair-trigger)

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

There is an old thread here you would do well to read/study.

I think I actually stumbled across that thread during my lurker phase. I've been lurking here for almost a year.

That thread has some good stuff, but other parts don't match my experience.

I don't get the "bad attitude" thing at all, the people here are super friendly and warm. I describe them as "midwestern personalities with California bodies" -- in contrast to the Pacific Northwest, where you get California personalities and midwestern bodies. I love the dry heat. The "hot season" is five months long if you're fat; if you're 12% bodyfat the hot season is like two or three months at most. We call it "opposite winter" because you're going to be stuck indoors longer than that if you live anywhere other than SoCal.

The commentary about Arizona's economic base is dated and no longer true: the most advanced microchip manufacturing in the world are now happens Phoenix. This is very recent. If you bought an iPhone this year in the USA, its application processor chip was manufactured here in Phoenix.

Also,

• Old Town Scottsdale nightlife now has a whole lot of "finance bro" types, and they are painfully annoying to be around -- I'm told this is a somewhat recent thing.
• Fashion Square has a lot of gold-digger/sugarbaby types so you have to be careful they don't waste your time (unless you're looking for that, which I'm not).

Without doxxing myself too much, his other advice about where to daygame is spot-on; it's why I do what I do where I do it.

What is your goal with meeting women? To be a playboy, to have a friend with benefits, a girlfriend, a wife?

To spin plates. Ideally, with women 35+ who, like me, have the body of a 25-year-old. But there aren't a lot of those, so I have to settle for 25-year-olds who have the body of a 25-year-old. This is a numbers game, and it's easy to find places with a high density of 25-year-old women. It is not at all easy to find a place with a high density of 35+ women who have a 25-year-old body... I run into maybe two or three of them a month. You can't play the numbers game like that.

Never married. It took me a long time to admit it, but monogamy is not for me. And I've seen too many men who I care about burned by it, zeroed out.

And what do you do for a living and what kind of financial means do you have?

I am very successful. I have to hide my wealth from women because before I did this I attracted the wrong type. Most of them don't figure it out now until they see where I live.

Nobody here will blow sunshine up your rear end. If you want to date 20 years younger, you are going to have to have some serious draw for much younger women, that typically means exceptional good looks, or exceptional financial means

My experience has been that leading with money was a really, really bad idea. I mean if you want to do that there's no better place in the world to do it than Scottsdale (ok, or Miami)... but I found it to be really unsatisfying. I'm looking for women whose primary attraction to me isn't money.

And to be honest, I've done the dating-20-years-younger thing and it's not my top priority. But I do need my women to be as fit as I am, and unfortunately there are not a lot of those over 35.

Thanks again for the great advice; I'll read (re-read, actually) the Phoenix thread.

 

[Bingo-Player]

Past generations of women were better at playing along with small talk , but I've noticed the younger GEN Z women and some millennial women just don't have the capacity for it

wether that is because of social media or its a bigger intergenerational issue I'm not sure

I think a lot of them are very very paranoid about saying or doing something that could either make them look uncool or not as attractive

people in general have become extremely image conscious and rarely want to risk saying or doing anything which could damage that image

I think this is a result of " like culture" where people have spent the last 15 years carefully curating online personas to acquire likes and comments from peers , that online persona doesn't always translate very well into the real world and can often come off as awkward or fake

Another theory I have is that some women have realised if you make a conversation awkward enough guys will often slip up and reveal their hand's allowing her to take total control of the frame and basically use men as free sources of attention and validation

I'm not saying all women are this manipulative but I've seen it out in the field so it is happening.

Its a strange landscape for sure , I would agree I've never had so much direct eye contact from attractive women just going about my day to day but I can't 100% say wether this eye contact is definitively " come talk to me " or " stay away from me" and I think a lot of men struggle with this

Usually my rule is smile + eye contact is a clear go ahead , eye contact alone is just neither here nor there for me

The gym is a particularly confusing environment because women tend to like dressing extremely provocatively , will give eye contact , will hover around men they find attractive and then on another day they will rock up with a boyfreind

I have no real solution other than to try and study conversational styles and just keep trying different stuff

 

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

Another theory I have is that some women have realised if you make a conversation awkward enough guys will often slip up and reveal their hand's allowing her to take total control of the frame

This is a really fascinating insight.

I had a very odd interaction a few weeks ago that made no sense to me at the time but is explained by this theory.

OTOH, it kinda backfired on everybody involved. I lost the frame but she didn't get control of it either. And I dumped her girlfriend as a result of it (not entirely because of it, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back). I guess everybody lost?

I can't 100% say wether this eye contact is definitively " come talk to me " or " stay away from me"

Dude, "stay away from me" isn't usually communicated with eye contact, but when it is it's painfully obvious. Like she has the word "creep" stenciled on her eyeballs.

Usually my rule is smile + eye contact is a clear go ahead , eye contact alone is just neither here nor there for me

My rules:

1. Avoiding eye contact: leave the poor girl alone
2. Less than one second of eye contact: go ahead and approach for practice, but don't feel bad if you don't get digits
3. One full second of eye contact: you should expect digits
4. Three full seconds of eye contact: she wants you to smash with her right now in the nearest janitorial closet

I'm gonna dig in my heels on that last point, it's never steered me wrong. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it always means what I think it means.

The gym is a particularly confusing environment because women tend to like dressing extremely provocatively , will give eye contact , will hover around men they find attractive and then on another day they will rock up with a boyfreind

Yeah I don't approach at the gym. I consider the gym to be a sacred space to be used for exercise and practicing nonverbal flirting.

On very rare occasions I may approach a girl as she's leaving the gym.

Interrupting her workout to approach is just lame, don't be that guy.