My wedding is two months away and I'm still not sure she is the right one!

[Le Parisien]

Engineers get lower quality women than they would otherwise

Yeah, they tend to get the "left-overs"...

3) engineers are too rational and introverted; this is death for meeting women. You must be more than a little stupid to succeed with the ladies.

I can't really agree with this one. I'm definitely NOT introverted AT ALL. But I still feel frustrated because it's like you need to be actually MUCH better than the average guy only to get the same quality of women. Just like people in developping countries need to work the same jobs much harder and better to finally get the same kind of salary if not lower.
Not that I can't get girls being an engineering dude, it's just that with my personality and looks, I would definitely be a major pimp if I was in education/psychology/hotel management or something like that.


Sorry for hijacking the thread for a while, but CobraGT listen to everyone, DON'T DO IT!

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

Cobra, your marriage may work if you are BOTH SINCERE - I question your sincerity!!

 

[CobraGT]

The deed is done...

and I feel horrible. Sick even.

I've got to re-read this thread and remember why this seemed like a good idea.

There are no words to describe her hurt. I feel worse because she doesn't deserve the pain I've caused her. I described my dilema to her so well that she no longer feels comfortable about our long term future. No going back now.

She spoke of how hard it is to go to places that remind her of past boyfriends and now I understand also. I'm going to be reminded of her a lot. She's planning on moving far away in light of our break up. It's hard to respect a decision when it hurts the other so bad.

CobraGT

 

[Falcon Eye]

Re: The deed is done...

Originally posted by CobraGT
and I feel horrible. Sick even.

I've got to re-read this thread and remember why this seemed like a good idea.

There are no words to describe her hurt. I feel worse because she doesn't deserve the pain I've caused her. I described my dilema to her so well that she no longer feels comfortable about our long term future. No going back now.

She spoke of how hard it is to go to places that remind her of past boyfriends and now I understand also. I'm going to be reminded of her a lot. She's planning on moving far away in light of our break up. It's hard to respect a decision when it hurts the other so bad.

CobraGT

Here's some advise for the short term, get out there, find some broad and spend a few weeks f u c k i n g her like a w h o r e.

As for the long term, never stop working on personal and professional development and just see how the world unfolds. Make no plans and see what happens. There's a wonderful life out there, don't miss out on it.

Good luck!

 

[Le Parisien]

I'm really sorry that you need to go through all this CobraGT.
But what needs to be done must be done, it's much better this way for both of you on the long run.

I know it's very hard, but don't let yourself down, try to do things that might make you feel better, or at least make the short-term situations more bearable. Just remember WHY you made this decision, and go out and experience.

Good luck.

 

[CLOONEY]

This is going to hit you in waves. Remember this.

Sometimes you will feel great and on top of the world, others you will regret it and feel like you did the wrong thing and will feel sad. It will come in waves. Remember WHY you did it and also remember this is not about how SHE is moving on, dont worry if she finds another boyfriend etc, this is about you now focusing on YOU and moving on with your life.

 

[CobraGT]

Contemplating The End
Against everyone's better judgement I've found a way to limit the hurt for both of us. I talked her into giving me another day to make sure that the split is what I wanted. She left for work and I had the whole day at my disposal.

I began my day by talking to a coworker who claimed he married about 23 years ago but was too young. I heard him say this one day but I never followed up on it. But before as I could get the details from him my fiance's mom called. Yep, I had no trouble passing on that call. By the message she left I couldn't tell if she knew yet because my fiance was suppose to give me a day before she called her parents. I would have to call my fiance later and see how much her mom knew.

Co-worker's View
During my conversation with my coworker I found out he got his wife pregnant. So he did the right thing and married her. He said he probably wouldn't have stayed with her otherwise. I was comforted that long term he had no regrets since he is young enough to enjoy his two kids and he and his wife have had a great life together. I found all this remarkable since he is always the first to notice any fine women in the vicinity. Later that day I would realize commitment to his wife sets the way he looks at women apart from the way I look at women. He said not to get married unless I was sure.

Her Mom's View
Soon as I was done talking to my coworker I jumped into my car and called my fiance to find out what her mom knew. Turns out her mom was there consoling her and stopped by our house to talk to me (luckily I wasn't there). I told my fiance I would talk to her mom if that is what she wanted. Her mom explained money was not an issue. Her mom was really concerned about us making the right decision and we talked over some of the stuff discussed here. It wasn't bad. She's a psychologist, so she was trying to be professional although my fiance said it was hard for her to be involved in something that was hurting her daughter. I felt that the conversation just let her know where I was coming from. She talked about the guilt I felt by looking at other women and said you shouldn't feel guilty unless you have actually done something. I let her know directly that infidelity has never been an issue. She said guilt should be reserved for your actions involving serious issues like incest or murder. I would add this to my later understanding.

Eye Candy
After the phone call I headed to the mall/outlet area in our town and tried to figure out, in the only way I knew possible, if ladies there were anything more than eye candy. They seemed to be mostly eye candy, but I couldn't figure it out just from looking. So at this point I'm still have a big unresolved issue. There were a bunch of women, but none seriously got my attention like normal. It was almost as if I had something else on my mind

Best Friend's View
I proceeded to cross the parking lot to visit the bookstore when my best friend returned my earlier phone call. I spent the next 30 or 40 minutes talking to him. He like everyone else claimed it was ultimately my decision. He's on his third marriage so he has some insight at what doesn't work. He said his first marriage was bad because she pretended to be someone she was not. The second marriage failed because he got married before the new war off. With the third he considered it miraculous, because the same things he asked God for in a woman were reflected in this woman. She echoed his values. He said the new wore off, but he is still content with his choice. He advised me against marrying a woman with hidden agendas. Every comment he made about hidden agendas I was able to counter with a reason she wasn't like that. This wasn't irrational counters either. These were rock solid. I have no doubts of her sincerity. We went on to discuss having faith in God and praying for an answer. I didn't vocalize or think of a prayer, but somehow clarity came later that night.

Quiet Time At The Bookstore
I ended the call and went to the bookstore heading for the relationship section. Read dating books on breaking up and the need for relationship experience. Saw that the "Lay Guide" was now in stores. Looked at every book that applied. Looked at a fruity girl book called the "Ambivalent Man." Realized women have some issues to work out too! While reading books I kept checking out the ladies. Not many good looking ones though. The girls behind me couldn't keep it together while looking at the sex position books. They might have been 7's, but there mild immaturity wasn't for me. If I were thinking about definitely becoming single I might have taken that moment to explain to them the pleasurable advantages of the position they were looking over I left the bookstore about 30 minutes before my fiance was suppose to arrive at home.

Man I'm Hungry
I stopped by a place and got some food for both of us. When I pulled up I noticed a hot number sitting by the window. Black pants, silky petite top with bra straps showing. I thought, pretty hot. On the way out I checked out the cleavage and it was beautiful. She was fine and pretty. I went back out got in my car and checked her out a little more before leaving. I was trying to wrap my mind around her and figure what she might be like. Didn't exactly work, but I did decide that she might not even be compatible with me. She might look perfect outside, but could still have issues inside. Didn't matter though since her boyfriend was with her.

Breath Deep!
I went back home. A little dread set in. My fiance had already called and asked where I was. I told her I was heading that way. As I neared I realized I still couldn't tell her anything conclusive. I was still iffy about it. I really didn't want her to have to move away to feel better about this. I walked in and found her asleep on the couch. Staying up all night and crying all day must really wear out a girl. I layed down near her on the floor and tried to imagine life with out her. She woke me up when she started going through the bag of food. Apparently I needed sleep too. Still no conclusion. We both ate, then she fell asleep again. I tried again to envision life without her. No success.

Last Minute Research
I went upstairs and spent the next two or three hours reading an online book called Psychological Self-Help
by Clay Tucker-Ladd. I read a chapter 10 called Dating, Love, Marriage, and Sex. The whole book can be found at http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/ This chapter is truly amazing! Never before I have I understood relationships with such great detail. Primarily my relationship, but everything makes sense and an intense amount of work went into this book based on the numerous references cited. It's long too. I couldn't believe I was only reading one chapter of this book. The other chapters cover a wide variety of personal issues. Really just amazing. Hard to believe it is free!

My fiance came up later and wanted to talk. She was ready to hear my decision, because she wanted to know the conclusion as soon as possible so she could end her pain with resolution. At that point I still didn't know. She asked what the website had to say and I explained some pertinent information with her. As our discussion progressed I developed my theory.

 

[CobraGT]

Chumpish Theory Revealed
Here goes my big chumpish theory. Dating is a dance...the two partners are compatibilty and commitment. We seek compatibility first. Along the way we learn about commitment. When we find someone who is compatible we start determining how commited he or she seems. We also look at ourself and decide if we should give in to commitment.

I have a unique situation. My first happens to be very compatible to me and just as likely a canidate as any other. If there are a million "the right ones" then should it matter if I take the first? Commitment is described as just giving yourself up to someone. The key is to make sure that the one your giving it up to is compatible. I won't pretend to understand commitment. If I did, I wouldn't have started this thread. I'm not even sure how to build it.

I feel honored to have developed my little theory. It makes so much sense to me. People amble through relationship without ever really understand the big picture. Understanding the goal of relationships is like knowing how to communicate effectively with people, but then reading a self improvement book and seeing on paper why your conversations are successful.

The key to saving this relationship is to throw myself into commitment bliss. It was impossible for me to understand the need for commitment without dating experience. I really, really, had no clue what steps it took to get that way. Personality is really key. Without that key looks mean sh!t. The book I mentioned claims that marriages based on a "physical ideal" are not always the most successful. It even mentioned that "best friend" relationship are very successful. The kind where your friend who you don't have intense sexual feelings for can be a good choice because you've gotten to know their personality vs. being attracted in a primarily physical way. I can attempt to become commited to my fiance because we share the same values, morals, and family goals.

The Decision
When I figured this theory out I was really excited and relieved since it was still possible to save this relationship. Even more exciting is that I told her my decision was to postpone the wedding until I could become learn to be commited. I feel completely at peace with my decision. She's worried I will half ass it, but I told her she should be able to see the results as we go. She certainly saw the results when commitment wasn't there!

CobraGT

 

[CobraGT]

The Next Day

Now it is the following day and she has told her mom and dad that the wedding will be postponed. She says her mom and dad are dissapointed by the whole turn of events. They wish it wasn't so hard on there little girl. I'm at peace with the decision. Better to work it out now than suffer divorce like virtually everyone in her family. She said her family really wouldn't care. She said she doesn't think her dad fully understands. He doesn't thinks she will never get married to me. I hope he can understand. He has had a string of his own relationships that were failures. I hope he can step back and see this in the correct light.

My fiance is bitter over all this. She says she has put so much work into this wedding and this relationship. She also has some fear that the next time we set a date I may do the same thing. She thought really hard on if I would change and if waiting would make a difference. She claims she is more commited to the relationship than any she has ever had because she is actually going to stick around. She said if she didn't believe I was the one for her she would run away like she has every other time during past relationships. She thinks she's has too much invested to let it go so easily.

Her mom recommends she and I get counseling. She has to get over her bitterness and I have to understand commitment. If counseling becomes too fruity I'm out of there!

In addition, her parents and her wonder if we should continue to live together. I'm bitter about that because I didn't condone it to start in the beginning. She talked me into it. She also wants to give me more room. She thought having my own place would give me a couple of days away if I needed it. She also thought we should start doing more stuff alone which I touched on with her before this came up. I told her moving somewhere else would make it real easy to walk away from this relationship and changing our together ratio would hurt us. I told her now might be a bad time to focus more on being independent. It could cause us to grow apart.

I probably feel at peace with my choice because I don't have a wedding date breathing down my neck and leaving or staying will be easier when this question of commitment is answered.


My friends the sun is out and a day has never seemed more beautiful than this one! I hope any one out there suffering from ambivalence can witness a beautiful day like this one before their wedding date!


CobraGT

 

[CobraGT]

My Soap Opera

I have no more to say on this subject unless someone needs clarification. I just wanted to let everyone know how it went. I will conclude this discussion once I determine if it is possible to conciously decide to be commited. This could be one month or six months. Then I can discuss if my theory has any merits. The most important to me is if commitment will change the way I look at beautiful women.

Until then I'll still check in.

CobraGT

 

[Eileen]

I know you're setting this all aside for now, but I see something increadible in the girl you're dating. I hope you can realize how special she is and how commited she is to you. She deserves someone who will return that completly.

If you are not that guy, do her a favor and cut her lose. Let her find a man who can love and appreciate her as much as she is capable of loving and appreciating.

 

[WestCoaster]

Cobra, you've got nads

I do commend you for taking a stand. A friend of mine just e-mailed me about a co-worker who has had second thoughts about getting married for a freakin' year and he went ahead and got married today, despite not wanting to. About 90 out of 100 men in America are this wimpy, you showed nads and stood your ground.

That said, quit living with her. You made your break, now make like Walter Payton and run to daylight!

Plus, living together is a waste of time (IMO). The test drive has shown not to work. Not only has it not worked with 90 percent of my friends who did this, it shows in this country that it doesn't work in sustaining marriages or relationships. In Sweden it works because people there are DJs, even the women; in America everyone is uptight about marriage, religion, this and that, drama, blah, blah, blah ... move out, find a new woman, and if you can't find a better woman, go back to this one if she'll take you. If she doesn't, no biggie, just find another woman.

I'd move out ASAP.

 

[Jay Gatsby]

I have a serious problem with a couple of statements made by CobraGT and Eileen.

Originally posted by CobraGT
She thinks she's has too much invested to let it go so easily.

CobraGT --

Your fiance is not focusing on you, but on herself. She has too much invested, and wants you to go through with the wedding so her efforts won't have been wasted. While this is a perfectly logical reason for wanting see one's efforts through to their natural conclusion, it is also a perfectly selfish one.

Think about it this way. Assume you've been asked to engineer the design for a computer chip, software program, etc... You slave away night and day for a year to develop the product, sacrificing weekends, free time, vacations, and maybe a few friendships along the way. A couple of months away from the product launch, your boss tells you that the company doesn't see the product as economically viable anymore in light of strategic changes within the company, and therefore pulls the plug on it, indicating that the company might revisit it in a few months. Naturally, you'd be angry at the "waste" of all of your time and sacrifice, but would you give any thought as to whether launching the product would be in the best interests of the company? If you knew that going through with the product launch would ultimately cost you your job and the jobs of other people in the form of layoffs, would you still feel the same way?

The same analogy applies to your situation. Would you get married now to ensure that your fiance's efforts aren't wasted, if you knew that you'd get divorced in 5 years? Of course you wouldn't because if anyone's efforts are going to be wasted, they won't be yours in the form of spending 5 years in a marriage that was doomed from the start.

Originally posted by Eileen
IShe deserves someone who will return that completely. If you are not that guy, do her a favor and cut her lose. Let her find a man who can love and appreciate her as much as she is capable of loving and appreciating.

Eileen --

Why are you focusing on what she deserves? I was considering a post entitled "You Owe It To Her" on this very issue, and might still post one, but perhaps a mini analysis would be appropriate here.

Why does CobraGT "owe" his fiancee the "favor" of cutting her loose? She has the ability (and has exercised it before) to cut herself loose from relationships that weren't working. The problem therefore lies with her, not with him. She is the one who chooses not to walk away from the relationship because, as CobraGT explained, "she has too much invested to let it go so easily." If CobraGT is guilty of anything, he's guilty of trying to let her down easy, so as not to terminate the engagement in too abrupt a manner. The decision is now hers.

Overall, it's been my experience that women won't walk away from a relationship that is showing signs of disfunctionality because doing so would be an admission that they made a mistake. In other words, they gave their hearts to men that were not worthy (at least in their eyes) of such a gift. Men suffer from the same affliction, though probably not to the same degree (I wouldn't know, I haven't been in a relationship with a man).

 

[TooColdUlrick]

Originally posted by Eileen
I know you're setting this all aside for now, but I see something increadible in the girl you're dating. I hope you can realize how special she is and how commited she is to you. She deserves someone who will return that completly.

If you are not that guy, do her a favor and cut her lose. Let her find a man who can love and appreciate her as much as she is capable of loving and appreciating.

the first one above is cr@p! the second one is wise, very wise, because i just don't see this working out.

Cobra...postponing it doesn't solve your problem by any means...

1) she's your first and only girlfriend (yikes!)
2) she's your first sex partner (yikes!)
3) she's your first LTR (yikes!)
4) you said you didn't find her that attractive, physically (yikes!)
5) your eyes and thoughts are wandering 80% of the time
6) you're wondering about pursuing other chicks

you're an engineer, so think logically here...the first four are causing the last two. the last two will NEVER go away, unless you take care of what's causing them. in fact, they will get worse! the only way to make 1-4 go away, and therefore 5-6, is to experience life.

counseling ain't gonna help one bit bro. you can't counsel your way through 1-4. it is what it is.

you have taken a giant leap forward and postponed the wedding. i really don't see it working out. you're obviously looking to sew your oats, however you define it. this is an urge, a right, that everyone has, including women.

you NEED to date, and fukk, other women. i'm dead serious. and from what you've said in your other posts, you're thinking about it too. you already dissed your morals, so you're a sinner. might as well go and sin some more )

don't let her and her family drag you down. it sounds like they might. if any of what i've said makes sense to you, end it with her. tell her you need to "see what else is out there".

and lastly, TELL THE TRUTH, are you browsing around this site to learn how to be a DJ? TELL THE TRUTH!!! if you are, that says it all.

 

[Falcon Eye]

Cobra, you have a major problem and there's really no way of getting around it.

The crux of the situation you're in is that you want, in fact, you need to know what it feels like to experience other women sexually and emotionally. It's your basic instinct screaming out at you dude. Right now you think this woman is great, but you're not sure because you have nothing to compare her to.

You have to get out there and experience other women, and I said other women, not one other woman. The problem you're having is that in order to do this you need to cut the current girl loose and it isn't easy. Nothing worth having is easy though.

You probably fear that you may cut her loose only to realize later on in life that she was truly a great woman and that you should have kept her. That's the chance you have to take though; and you HAVE to take the chance because otherwise you'll always be wondering, and that isn't fair to her or to yourself.

 

[NewMan]

Why are you trying to rationalize all of this?

Your day and your theory changes nothing.

Your trying to come up with some kind of excuse - your trying to not make it so hard on your ex.


NEWS FLASH - this is now doomed.


Your talking to some guy who married his wife because she was pregenant. Ok listen... He says he's happy - but he also doesn't know any better. You don't know any better. You don't find your girl that attractive and the only good thing about her is she laughs at your jokes and does "Things" for you

Live some life.

Get out there.

There are lot's of women out there who will not give you a hard time bacuase you didn't park the car the way she wanted you to.

 

[dietzcoi]

Yep, Westcoaster, it is great he took a small step back but I think he is still headed over the edge of the bridge.

He's doomed for all the reasons stated by our friends above.

But maybe he will enjoy his long term monogamy/imprisonment without having experienced other women. After all plenty of chumps seem to think this is the way to go...

Read the "Is monogamy a myth" thread on the main board.

PS the main board is seriously full of AFCs

Dietzcoi

 

[CLOONEY]

Sorry man, you just shot yourself in the foot! Taking a stand is TOTALLY different to taking a half azzed wimply little stand that makes her insecure about the relationship.

You and her agreeing she should give you more space, she shoudl be more independent, and you two should have a little time apart are HUGE red flags.

You have planted the seed of doubt into her mind, now watch it bloom into a giant tree!!

 

[CobraGT]

Originally posted by TooColdUlrick
the first one above is cr@p! the second one is wise, very wise, because i just don't see this working out.

Cobra...postponing it doesn't solve your problem by any means...

1) she's your first and only girlfriend (yikes!)
2) she's your first sex partner (yikes!)
3) she's your first LTR (yikes!)
4) you said you didn't find her that attractive, physically (yikes!)
5) your eyes and thoughts are wandering 80% of the time
6) you're wondering about pursuing other chicks

you're an engineer, so think logically here...the first four are causing the last two. the last two will NEVER go away, unless you take care of what's causing them. in fact, they will get worse! the only way to make 1-4 go away, and therefore 5-6, is to experience life.

counseling ain't gonna help one bit bro. you can't counsel your way through 1-4. it is what it is.

Good points! There is a problem associated with her being the first. It has crippled me since we have been exclusive. It is possible though to beat that don't marry your first rule. In this case I have very few bad things to say about her. She has many qualities I admire. The biggest set back is that I've had to figure out what it means to be fully commited without having ever experienced it. Before this weekend commitment was like the word sex to a 1st grader. I might giggle about it, but didn't know how to do it or how it felt. As the 1st grader becomes...ummm....a 6th grader he learns how sex is performed, but still doesn't know how it feels. Well that's the point I've arrived at on commitment. I know what I means to be fully commited, but I don't know how it feels. Hence the fog I've experienced up until now.

They say that friends make good marriage partners because they have a chance to determine if their personalities are compatible before moving on to full blown sexual attraction. I really don't know what to say about my attraction to her physically. I'm not sure about the attractive part. It's there, but being stuck in ambivalence doesn't make you any more aware of it....your just too worried about getting into the relationship too deep. You don't want the exit door to shut all the way so to speak.

My intent is to try to become commited to this girl. I think there are three levels of commitment with each level having levels within.

Commitment Levels
Level 1, is 0 to 33% commited. This guy looks at women while in his relationship and acts on his urges. This guy gives commited men a bad rep.


Level 2, is 33 to 66% commited. This guy was me. He may or may not be in a fog about commitment. The less he has dated the more likely he is in a fog. He looks at women because his subconcious mind dictates he do it. The subconcious mind studies the women everywhere, but he doesn't realize why he is drawn to look at the women like a single man. You can't figure out why looking at beautiful women has become the highlight of your day when you've got a girlfriend. It starts making you question your compatibility with her. Maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Level 3 is 66 to 99.999% commited. This guy has a preoccupied mind. His significant other is the light of his world. He looks at women just as every guy, but he just acknowledges she is pretty and/or has a nice body. His mind isn't preoccupied with every honey he sees, his mind is happily preoccupied with the girl he dates or has married. Women he sees in public are no longer the highlight of his day. His subconcious mind is at rest because he is highly commited to someone.

The sooner your woman realizes you are a Level 3 the sooner she trusts you completely. Jealousy fades. When you know without a doubt that your woman is highly commited to you, Level 3, you can trust her to be out by herself.

If either one of you are less than a high Level 3, the one who has less commitment will be less trusted and will have to tippy toe around situations that might cause the high commitment partner to be jealous.

I don't think you should marry unless both of you are very high Level 3's and know how to reinforce commitment daily to keep it high.

So in my case I'm a high Level 2 because I've held on to her. Everyone was shocked to find out we had problems. One of my frank, tackless, and buy your lunch if you need it but aggravate you the whole time you were eating just for fun friends said "you'd better marry that girl!" Everyone around me sees something in her I've neglected because I've had one foot halfway out the door preoccupied with leaving at anytime. Staying right now is the best thing I can do to verify my theory.

I don't have experience in dating so I'm going to exhaust the possibilities with this one. Learn if my theory is right. When beautiful women start becoming less the highlight of my day I will no I'm changing. I consider this girl highly compatible with me, because even while I was ignorant/clueless about commitment Level 2 and she a very high Level 3 we still got a long great. Any problems we have had have been entirely as a result of my commitment stupidity.

If I don't try this, then I will never know about commitment. I thinks she is a great person and worth the effort. If I become fully commited life is great. I'll be happy. If I don't become highly commited I must assume we truly are not compatible, then at least I have had a chance to learn what it feels like to commited at a higher degree.

I can not tell you the relief I felt at understanding why I considered looking at women the highlight of my day and couldn't comprehend why I was powerless to stop it. Once I understood the fog lifted and I could see clearly. I have control because I have knowledge of the nature of commitment. While I'm not more than a high Level 2 at least now I know those feelings of intense looking at beautiful women will diminish as you reach a fully commited level.





CobraGT

 

[CobraGT]

Originally posted by Jay Gatsby
Would you get married now to ensure that your fiance's efforts aren't wasted

I've already proved that! You tell a woman you want to change your wedding date 8 weeks before it happens and you'll see bitterness. Now that I can put a finger on why I was uneasy (commitment ignorance), I will forever have a rule to measure my relationship(s) against. I'm clear on my resolve and won't mention a wedding around her again until I loose the uneasy feeling of uncertainty completely.

CobraGT