Met a gorgeous girl at the bar last night, not sure how to proceed

All_Kindz_Of_Gainz

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Look I'm perfectly willing to accept I might've been wrong here by not trying more, but especially in this day and age with all the MeToo stuff, I thought it best not to pressure her after two rejections.

Considering the walk back to hers was mostly filled with her complaining about some other girl rather than talking about herself or asking about me, and that she wanted to go to some other party, this might've been over before I even tried.

Additionally, like @Bingo-Player said above, to judge a woman by her actions rather than her words - if this chick is talking about wanting to f*** but won't even kiss because she's "worried about wanting to f*** me", shouldn't I accept that she's BSing?

Side note, if I were to go out tonight and she happened to be at the same bar again, any suggestions for how to play that out, if at all?
I get the MeToo movement $hit, and while she was drunk was probably the best decision honestly idk. But if a woman mentions the F word, it means she's thinking about it. It all depends on the rejection and how was it, "get away from me you creep" or "lol stop get away, I don't kiss cause if I kiss I'll want you to fvck me"

Either way IMO, if you couldn't score cause of her rejection, you didn't have a reason to that party unless you weren't looking for a hookup. But again that's my thinking, what do I know.
 

RazorRambo24

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Look I'm perfectly willing to accept I might've been wrong here by not trying more, but especially in this day and age with all the MeToo stuff, I thought it best not to pressure her after two rejections.

Considering the walk back to hers was mostly filled with her complaining about some other girl rather than talking about herself or asking about me, and that she wanted to go to some other party, this might've been over before I even tried.

Additionally, like @Bingo-Player said above, to judge a woman by her actions rather than her words - if this chick is talking about wanting to f*** but won't even kiss because she's "worried about wanting to f*** me", shouldn't I accept that she's BSing?

Side note, if I were to go out tonight and she happened to be at the same bar again, any suggestions for how to play that out, if at all?
Given all the circumstances and recalling how you ended up leaving because she wasnt giving you much attention and you were jus kinda keeping her company while she was lookin for other stuff to do/talking to other ppl, and how she said "alright bye text me when u get home" when you decided to leave because you sense the awkwardness ... I think she was just being friendly instead of letting you down harshly. I think that she has alot of options and friends but shes surveying to finds omething to do or someone to do to get over her breakup.. or she might not really be lookin at all-- and was jus bein friendly..
 

BPH

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Given all the circumstances and recalling how you ended up leaving because she wasnt giving you much attention and you were jus kinda keeping her company while she was lookin for other stuff to do/talking to other ppl, and how she said "alright bye text me when u get home" when you decided to leave because you sense the awkwardness ... I think she was just being friendly instead of letting you down harshly. I think that she has alot of options and friends but shes surveying to finds omething to do or someone to do to get over her breakup.. or she might not really be lookin at all-- and was jus bein friendly..
Well, specifically, I just told her I was leaving and SHE stopped me and told me to text her, not quite like "text me when you get home to make sure you're safe" but rather "make sure to text me". Granular s*** I know, but maybe a little more positive.

Anyway so moving forward, let me get your opinion on how to behave if I go out tonight and she's there again. Otherwise, your advice was just to hit her up next week and invite her alone to whatever I'm already doing, NOT going on some sorta one-on-one date, correct?
 

BillyPilgrim

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she's in a sorority, Alpha Phi. I don't know if much has changed with them since I went to school here but their reputation is for being one of the hottest sororities with their members being a mix of cokeheads and sluts.
Lolz I'm surprised Hunter Biden wasn't at this party.
 

RazorRambo24

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Well, specifically, I just told her I was leaving and SHE stopped me and told me to text her, not quite like "text me when you get home to make sure you're safe" but rather "make sure to text me". Granular s*** I know, but maybe a little more positive.

Anyway so moving forward, let me get your opinion on how to behave if I go out tonight and she's there again. Otherwise, your advice was just to hit her up next week and invite her alone to whatever I'm already doing, NOT going on some sorta one-on-one date, correct?
Nothing to care about man. I'd survey what else is out there, if you focus on her you'll prob miss some better opportunities. She seems like a half ass opportunity in all honesty.. doesnt know what she wants and 90% chance she was just being nice and friendly as she probably does with every decent lookin guy.. I'm sure since you're somewhat sexually active and have banged a decent amount of women that you're not unattractive or socially inept.. But guaranteed shes not hopng or wishing to see you again or any of that lol. They only do if you leave a good ass impression on them like -- a leg shaking good time if you catch my drift

If a girl doesnt text me the next day after I met her or try to call me, I know she gives 0 ****s lol.. if i miss her call or her text was boring i end u p not caring anyways man-- 3 days - 1 week in and shes barely a memory to me. For her its thes ame. Hot girls got enough abundance they dont have to care.. no matter how hot or cool or good in bed you are.
 

BPH

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Nothing to care about man. I'd survey what else is out there, if you focus on her you'll prob miss some better opportunities. She seems like a half ass opportunity in all honesty.. doesnt know what she wants and 90% chance she was just being nice and friendly as she probably does with every decent lookin guy.. I'm sure since you're somewhat sexually active and have banged a decent amount of women that you're not unattractive or socially inept.. But guaranteed shes not hopng or wishing to see you again or any of that lol. They only do if you leave a good ass impression on them like -- a leg shaking good time if you catch my drift

If a girl doesnt text me the next day after I met her or try to call me, I know she gives 0 ****s lol.. if i miss her call or her text was boring i end u p not caring anyways man-- 3 days - 1 week in and shes barely a memory to me. For her its thes ame. Hot girls got enough abundance they dont have to care.. no matter how hot or cool or good in bed you are.
Alright, so if you were me and you saw her tonight out at the bar, not saying to focus on her but would you do anything at all?

Otherwise I'll just text her next week.

Also in your first reply you mentioned how you were probably the best first response I could get to this given what I asked in my OP, what's your dating background like?
 

Barrister

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Brother, never ask a woman for advice in picking a chick up. That is like asking a fish the best way to catch it with your pole. Doesn't matter who it is - your mom or otherwise (and you two must have a way different relationship than I do with my mom; would never want her aware of my conquests).

That said, hot or not, you are way over-analyzing this situation. This is a drunk sorority girl. This just comes down to being the guy with her at the end of the night when she is so wasted she can barely see. But beware as they are favorite #metoo situations with these girls when she wakes up in the morning and thinks you took advantage of her. Her line about not wanting to kiss you or she will want to fvck you was likely BS, but that was also an opportunity missed by you to really escalate and test her limits.

Sounds like you did a good job on the approach and got her attention. After that, I would have escalated quickly before the party and if that failed, started hitting on other women at the frat party and completely ignored this chick. Probably taken a different one home altogether.
 

BPH

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Brother, never ask a woman for advice in picking a chick up. That is like asking a fish the best way to catch it with your pole. Doesn't matter who it is - your mom or otherwise (and you two must have a way different relationship than I do with my mom; would never want her aware of my conquests).

That said, hot or not, you are way over-analyzing this situation. This is a drunk sorority girl. This just comes down to being the guy with her at the end of the night when she is so wasted she can barely see. But beware as they are favorite #metoo situations with these girls when she wakes up in the morning and thinks you took advantage of her. Her line about not wanting to kiss you or she will want to fvck you was likely BS, but that was also an opportunity missed by you to really escalate and test her limits.

Sounds like you did a good job on the approach and got her attention. After that, I would have escalated quickly before the party and if that failed, started hitting on other women at the frat party and completely ignored this chick. Probably taken a different one home altogether.
Yeah, I wasn't asking for advice from her so much as I was drunkenly recounting my story and getting her input, but I know what you mean.

The frat party thing, I mean I'm 29 at a college bar so being in a basement with 18 year olds isn't really my ideal time - with or without her.

Anyway, what would be your suggestion as far as moving forward and reaching out to her next week or if I go out tonight and happen to see her?
 

RazorRambo24

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Alright, so if you were me and you saw her tonight out at the bar, not saying to focus on her but would you do anything at all?

Otherwise I'll just text her next week.

Also in your first reply you mentioned how you were probably the best first response I could get to this given what I asked in my OP, what's your dating background like?
Only if she makes it easy for me..otherwise im not really thinkin about her. I might wave from a distance or say hi depending on what im doing but i dont really care.

Might jus be best to not even acknowledge her tbh.

Edit:
Sorry just read your 2nd question. Man ive dealt with so many women nothing is new or surprising to me. Alot of stuff even my own friends tend to be confused about I can disect and be like ah i see what happened. I have a few women in my life currently who have been around for 2 yrs now with little mishaps and sht in between. A 3rd that ive been seeing for a year. Commited relationships I never had one last more than a year though some of my exs I continued to see here and there and some im still cool with. More importantly ive been in a plethora of different situations in approach and meeting women in all types of situations. I still go out and meet new girls often but im around the age im planning on jus slowing it down a bit and figuring out whether i want to settle down with one of the chicks im already seeing or attempt to find someone else.
 
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We_ArE_VeNOM

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With all due respect...

Any courtship which involves alchohol is low-level sh!t.

Can you guys get any action without either alcohol (club or parties), or a computer (OLD) involved?
 

BPH

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Only if she makes it easy for me..otherwise im not really thinkin about her. I might wave from a distance or say hi depending on what im doing but i dont really care.

Might jus be best to not even acknowledge her tbh.

Edit:
Sorry just read your 2nd question. Man ive dealt with so many women nothing is new or surprising to me. Alot of stuff even my own friends tend to be confused about I can disect and be like ah i see what happened. I have a few women in my life currently who have been around for 2 yrs now with little mishaps and sht in between. A 3rd that ive been seeing for a year. Commited relationships I never had one last more than a year though some of my exs I continued to see here and there and some im still cool with. More importantly ive been in a plethora of different situations in approach and meeting women in all types of situations. I still go out and meet new girls often but im around the age im planning on jus slowing it down a bit and figuring out whether i want to settle down with one of the chicks im already seeing or attempt to find someone else.
I may go out tonight and do some recruiting then, one of my FWBs hit me up so that's an option too, I'm just looking at this one because she's hot and local so that would be great to have her on the roster if I didn't mess this up too bad/she knows what she wants.

If I do go out and she's there I'll probably just say hi and see how excited she is to see me and gauge it from there.

And ok, yeah I wasn't trying to "qualify" you or anything, just genuinely curious what your experience had been based on your first reply there.

With all due respect...

Any courtship which involves alchohol is low-level sh!t.

Can you guys get any action without either alcohol (club or parties), or a computer (OLD) involved?
I mean not really, but why is that a problem? It's just kinda the way it is. My day to day doesn't put me around a lot of women outside of going to the gym, so going where women will be on the weekends is the best option for the amount of time I'd have to spend.

And where will most women be on the weekends? If they're single, probably a bar or a club. As far as the alcohol part, personally, I'm fine without it, that just happens to be the environment.

OLD is purely supplementary - I expect nothing and am occasionally pleasantly surprised; 2 of the 3 girls I hook up with right now are from Tinder and Hinge respectively. I just swipe every so often and maybe I match with somebody hot and maybe they make it far enough in the conversation to agree on meeting up.
 

SW15

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nobody I know is really on the same level as I am when it comes to sleeping around (I've been with 88 women) so she doesn't think anybody I ask is really qualified to help.
88 women is a very good notch count. I've read parts of the thread "The Chronicles of BPH" before.

I'm here wondering how I should proceed with her.

My friend's suggestion was to leave it alone until next Thursday, then hit her up to go out.

My thought was more along the lines of "strike while the iron is hot" and see what her plans would be tonight, but I was drunk then and that's probably not the right move.
Take at least a few days off and let the emotions of this simmer down a bit.

She said she shouldn't kiss you because then she would want to fvck you. There were so many ways to turn up the sexuality with her saying that and you literally turned off the stove instead.

IMHO, you missed a chance at fvcking her by interpreting that to mean she didn't want to.
I agree

I don't think she's Catholic though - she's in a sorority, Alpha Phi. I don't know if much has changed with them since I went to school here but their reputation is for being one of the hottest sororities with their members being a mix of cokeheads and sluts. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but considering how the night was going I didn't expect ANY resistance to something as simple as a kiss.
This was a controversial Alpha Phi recruitment video at University of Alabama in 2015. These women look like what you describe.


Sounds like you did a good job on the approach and got her attention. After that, I would have escalated quickly before the party and if that failed, started hitting on other women at the frat party and completely ignored this chick. Probably taken a different one home altogether.
I like this way of handling the situation.

With all due respect...

Any courtship which involves alchohol is low-level sh!t.

Can you guys get any action without either alcohol (club or parties), or a computer (OLD) involved?
A lot of men need either alcohol or to be behind a screen and used tech-based methods. There's a reason that non-bar approaching has always been a niche activity. Very few men can talk to women while sober and be persuasive enough to arrange a first date. Also, non-bar approaching is filled with women ignoring you and conversations that last 30-60 seconds and go nowhere. A lot of men cannot emotionally handle that and also lack the guts to even initiate many of those meaningless conversations.
 
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We_ArE_VeNOM

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I mean not really, but why is that a problem? It's just kinda the way it is. My day to day doesn't put me around a lot of women outside of going to the gym, so going where women will be on the weekends is the best option for the amount of time I'd have to spend.

And where will most women be on the weekends? If they're single, probably a bar or a club. As far as the alcohol part, personally, I'm fine without it, that just happens to be the environment.

OLD is purely supplementary - I expect nothing and am occasionally pleasantly surprised; 2 of the 3 girls I hook up with right now are from Tinder and Hinge respectively. I just swipe every so often and maybe I match with somebody hot and maybe they make it far enough in the conversation to agree on meeting up.
Gotcha.
 

BPH

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88 women is a very good notch count. I've read parts of the thread "The Chronicles of BPH" before.

I agr

I like this way of handling the situation.
Imagine what my count would be if I got out of my parent's house and had my own place to bring these chicks...gotta work on that...

Well sh** guess next time I'll push a little harder. I just figured that I had my advances rejected twice, so even with that comment of hers I wasn't getting the vibe that I should try again. Maybe I erred on the side of caution a little too much, didn't want to be pushy.

As far as the party thing, ehh I feel like I'm too old for basements. I probably should have just not gone.

Also I don't know why that recruitment video is controversial. I thought I was gonna see some wet t-shirt contests or date auctions or something.

As for the alcohol and screen-based things, I can't speak for other men, but most interactions outside of those environments are just to set up meetings in those environments. Like I can't think of many situations where I met a girl during the day while we were both sober and ended up f***ing. However, I can think of plenty of situations where I met a girl during the day and arranged to meet at a bar or party later where we did end up f***ing.

Women go to these bars for the same reason we men do - to put themselves on the market. Just the way it is.
 

SW15

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Imagine what my count would be if I got out of my parent's house and had my own place to bring these chicks...gotta work on that...
You could be the top seducer on this board if you had your own bachelor pad. Your 88 notch count is above most men on this board. You've been on this board since 2010 (12+ years) and absorbed a lot of good information.

Well sh** guess next time I'll push a little harder. I just figured that I had my advances rejected twice, so even with that comment of hers I wasn't getting the vibe that I should try again. Maybe I erred on the side of caution a little too much, didn't want to be pushy.
Pushing through resistance is often a good idea. Sometimes, it is clear when to completely stop. This can be a tricky concept for a lot of men. Last night, you received some Last Minute Resistance (a common tactic). You did not attempt to push through the resistance. There are pros and cons to not pushing through and one of the cons is that it often means that her attraction for you fades and you don't end up having sex with her or seeing her again.

Also I don't know why that recruitment video is controversial. I thought I was gonna see some wet t-shirt contests or date auctions or something.
Too many white women for the SJWs.


As for the alcohol and screen-based things, I can't speak for other men, but most interactions outside of those environments are just to set up meetings in those environments. Like I can't think of many situations where I met a girl during the day while we were both sober and ended up f***ing. However, I can think of plenty of situations where I met a girl during the day and arranged to meet at a bar or party later where we did end up f***ing.

Women go to these bars for the same reason we men do - to put themselves on the market. Just the way it is.
A lot of men don't have a lot of success in nightlife venue game so you're doing better than most. This video has points that are relatable to a lot of men who spend time in nightlife venues.


If you meet a woman at a non-bar venue, typically the process is...

1. Approach her
2. Talk for some amount of time (if using Mode One, about 1 min. The London Daygame Model is structured for longer conversations)
3. Arrange a date and collect a phone number
4. Go to first date at a bar, possibly have a 2nd or 3rd date, and have sex after one of those dates
5. If things go well after initial sex, the relationship might turn into a more committed relationship.
 
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BPH

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You could be the top seducer on this board if you had your own bachelor pad. Your 88 notch count is above most men on this board. You've been on this board since 2010 (12+ years) and absorbed a lot of good information.



Pushing through resistance is often a good idea. Sometimes, it is clear when to completely stop. This can be a tricky concept for a lot of men. Last night, you received some Last Minute Resistance (a common tactic). You did not attempt to push through the resistance. There are pros and cons to not pushing through and one of the cons is that it often means that her attraction for you fades and you don't end up having sex with her or seeing her again.



Too many white women for the SJWs.




A lot of men don't have a lot of success in nightlife venue game so you're doing better than most. This video has points that are relatable to a lot of men who spend time in nightlife venues.


If you meet a woman at a non-bar venue, typically the process is...

1. Approach her
2. Talk for some amount of time (if using Mode One, about 1 min. The London Daygame Model is structured for longer conversations)
3. Arrange a date and collect a phone number
4. Go to first date at a bar, possibly have a 2nd or 3rd date, and have sex after one of those dates
5. If things go well after initial sex, the relationship might turn into a more committed relationship.
Yeah I think the most important thing when it came to my own development was just approaching until I got over any sort of fear of rejection - really opens up a lot of doors when the conversation flows and you're relaxed.

I'm just real wary about the last minute resistance thing because I don't want to push too hard and become some sort of sexual assault case. In this case I probably should've tried a little harder, I see that.

For the last point, the bar process just cuts out the first 3 or 4 steps. As far as Wheat Waffles, I have mixed opinions on him. I think he has some bad hot takes like when he was trying to downplay other "red pill" content creators. He seems "black pill" which is a realistic point of view but not a beneficial one. Talking about problems is one thing, but not really giving solutions beyond "mix maxxing your looks" isn't useful advice. To be fair I haven't sat through too much of his content since they're all longform.
 

BeExcellent

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Yeah, I wasn't asking for advice from her so much as I was drunkenly recounting my story and getting her input, but I know what you mean.

The frat party thing, I mean I'm 29 at a college bar so being in a basement with 18 year olds isn't really my ideal time - with or without her.

Anyway, what would be your suggestion as far as moving forward and reaching out to her next week or if I go out tonight and happen to see her?
Advice from the old lady:

You were doing ok until you agreed to go to a frat party. Once there you are her puppy dog or show n tell item.

Here’s why (the old lady was in a sorority back in the day….) Reputation is everything. Everything. When you walk into a party like that you are on her turf, in her frame, and she already knows everyone. No way she’s going to have her crowd gossiping about rando older dude she picked up & brought along.

Frat parties are for frat boys and those select alums who regularly hang with the actives. They all know each other in the Greek bubble and that’s why it was awkward. They all know who sleeps around and who doesn’t. And many sorority girls are looking to lock down a frat guy from a good family who is going places in life. Those girls are getting Mrs. degrees and many are only open to dating Greek guys for serious LTRs.

I know a number of couples who met this way, are my age, still together & finishing raising kids.

You caught a cute sorority girl out tipsy. I’ll bet you never hear from her again.

If you see her out you are cool & unbothered. Do NOT hump her leg looking for a second try unless she totally comes on to you. She won’t.

Let it go.
 

BPH

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Advice from the old lady:

You were doing ok until you agreed to go to a frat party. Once there you are her puppy dog or show n tell item.

Here’s why (the old lady was in a sorority back in the day….) Reputation is everything. Everything. When you walk into a party like that you are on her turf, in her frame, and she already knows everyone. No way she’s going to have her crowd gossiping about rando older dude she picked up & brought along.

Frat parties are for frat boys and those select alums who regularly hang with the actives. They all know each other in the Greek bubble and that’s why it was awkward. They all know who sleeps around and who doesn’t. And many sorority girls are looking to lock down a frat guy from a good family who is going places in life. Those girls are getting Mrs. degrees and many are only open to dating Greek guys for serious LTRs.

I know a number of couples who met this way, are my age, still together & finishing raising kids.

You caught a cute sorority girl out tipsy. I’ll bet you never hear from her again.

If you see her out you are cool & unbothered. Do NOT hump her leg looking for a second try unless she totally comes on to you. She won’t.

Let it go.
I wanted to quote you but also provide a minor update:

She was not at the bar tonight, ended up f***ing a FWB then going to the bar for a little but there wasn't any talent.

To reply to your quote my first question is this: I've seen you reply to some people on here with the "old lady advice" thing and I'm genuinely curious, are you reading these with your wife and passing on her advice or is it something you do as more of a persona when handing out your own advice?

Also, I think things weren't going exceptionally WAY before the party. I was there maybe 5 minutes, if I messed up I think I messed up beforehand. Or maybe I didn't really have a shot and she was just being friendly and flirty, who knows? The fact that the conversation was her complaining about some other girl and shying away from my advances kinda had me thinking this might not be as much of a sure thing as I thought it was going to be.

I have her number, she and I have each other on Instagram, I'll hit her up later next week and see how that goes. If not, no big deal, I'm just overanalyzing the situation because if I did things wrong I want to know what they are so I can avoid doing them again.
 

Murk

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You should have taken her back to your place or smashed at her place after she hung off your neck at the bar all night, instead you follow her to some kids party in a basement, the fact you didn’t even get a kiss tells me you’re not a highly attractive man, you’re not that guy, your 88 bodies have not been beautiful girls, I’m not blessing this thread with any wisdom or my time.
 
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SW15

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I think the most important thing when it came to my own development was just approaching until I got over any sort of fear of rejection - really opens up a lot of doors when the conversation flows and you're relaxed.
This is good. As of your last post in "The Chronicles of @BPH " in 2015, you said you were 6'0" and 205 lbs. 6'0" and 205 lbs could be a 'Chad' level physique with a certain muscle mass and body fat percentage. In 2015, at 194 lbs, you also mentioned you had 6 pack abs. It is likely that in 2023, you still have a 'Chad' level physique if you've upped your notches from 39 to 88 during the last 7.5 years.

A notch count of 88 at age 29 is so good. Living at home in Delaware with your parents at age 29 sucks. However, having a 'Chad' type physique can make up for living at home with your parents at age 29 and possibly working a McJob despite having a college degree (you were a senior at University of Delaware in 2015 - so I am guessing you finished your bachelor's degree).

The biggest reason for your success is your looks. 6'0", 205 lbs, and fit are what women desire.

I'm just real wary about the last minute resistance thing because I don't want to push too hard and become some sort of sexual assault case. In this case I probably should've tried a little harder, I see that.
I can identify with this point of view. You are a thoughtful man. Not pushing through resistance will cost you notches (as it did in this thread) but it might save you needing a lawyer and defending yourself in court. This topic is a tough balancing act for a lot of men, particularly men who do approaches in nightlife venues with semi or fully intoxicated women and seek same night sex.

If you meet a woman at a non-bar venue, typically the process is...

1. Approach her
2. Talk for some amount of time (if using Mode One, about 1 min. The London Daygame Model is structured for longer conversations)
3. Arrange a date and collect a phone number
4. Go to first date at a bar, possibly have a 2nd or 3rd date, and have sex after one of those dates
5. If things go well after initial sex, the relationship might turn into a more committed relationship.
the bar process just cuts out the first 3 or 4 steps.
Before I get into this, I want to say that for most men who do non-bar approach, the process often fails at Steps 2-4 prior to sex. That 5 step process was a near perfect process with strong game and good frame demonstrated.

The bar process cuts out Step 3 and the first parts of Step 4. At bars, you're still approaching (Step 1) and having some sort of initial conversation (Step 2)

If a man desires longer term relationships, he likely has to do some sort of structured dating process with dates at venues like bars, activity dates, and home dinner dates.

As far as Wheat Waffles, I have mixed opinions on him. I think he has some bad hot takes like when he was trying to downplay other "red pill" content creators. He seems "black pill" which is a realistic point of view but not a beneficial one. Talking about problems is one thing, but not really giving solutions beyond "mix maxxing your looks" isn't useful advice.
Wheat Waffles has branded himself as a 'black pill' content creator. He has the most subscribers of any 'black pill' content creator.

I like to think that I am more red pill than black pill. I have a lot of posts on here so people can decide whether my ideology is more red pill or black pill.

The 'black pill' ideology is more of a looks-based ideology than others. I believe Game to be some combination of looks, money, status, and personality. Men differ on how they implement that combination. One extreme example of this is Bill Gates. Bill Gates has never had looks, so in the 1980s, he used his money and Microsoft CEO status to get a date with a Microsoft marketer who was a recent MBA graduate and that became his girlfriend and later his wife. Even as Microsoft CEO in the late 1980s, he could do effectively do cold approaches in Seattle bars, so he was a near or complete zero on looks and personality. That was a 30+ year long relationship. That's an outlier example of blue pill money and status game.
 
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