Interesting Study...ugly guys who get hot women do so because they don't think they are ugly...

[Robert28]

No you don't.

You don’t believe success breeds confidence?

 

[Robert28]

I disagree. Imho true confidence is linked to stoicism and absolute sense of self. The realization you cannot control anything in life but yourself. Succes obtained by outside factors is always fickle.Thats why some of these rich stars ( J Depp, w Smith MB Jordan ect) still embarrasse themselves and get addicted to all kinds of things, bc their definition of self doesn't seems solid, hence why their confidence isn't solid neither. Give them 100 more successful movies, their confidence wont go up.

New clothes ,money HB's ect might boost you confidence for a short period of time, but when that fades you'll be left with what is internal and self. Hence the dreaded " burn out" which occurs on all levels of society, also on levels the ( superficial) eye might describe as " successful ".

Exactly! Women are outside factors. In other words, men don’t need women to be truly happy. We shouldn’t care what any woman thinks about us or if she finds us attractive or whatever flaws she might see in us that disqualify us in her eyes to date or whatever. I’ve long since figured out my strengths and women aren’t one of them and that’s ok. I’m better at other things, and those things make me happy. I love financial stuff, my friends are constantly asking me about financial stuff and advice on what they should do or explain something to them. Women? Meh, I’ve sucked for 38 years, had some highs and lows with them but overall my batting average with them has been average at best. Never really learned “game” because trying to be someone I’m not just wasn’t for me. Women get on me all the time that I “don’t pursue”, you’re damn right I don’t and I never will. I’ve got better things to do than chase after them.

 

[Jake_Gyllenhaal69]

They always claim to see them in public but never post pics for proof. I never see ugly men with attractive women where I live. I see average guys with women I think are attractive but it’s never, say, a 9 walking around with a 3. No way in hell.

a girl could consider a guy we deem a Chad ugly because she prefers the SJW pajama boy type. Hell, we had a topic debating the attraction level of Pete Davidson. “Ugly” outside deformities and body fat is highly subjective!

 

[BackInTheGame78]

You don’t believe success breeds confidence?

It definitely helps, but to say that a person needs to have it to be confident isn't correct. Some people do not need it.

 

[Serenity]

It’s not that baffling.

When a guy, looking good or not, is constantly destroyed by Alpha men in junior, high school, college, workplace, and movies and tv and internet and music and real life only show the top, rich, sexy Alpha males get sex with all the hot young girls, where is he supposed to get the internal value from?

It likes society does everything it can to brainwash the young man; to prevent him from getting confidence and to value young women (when the rich, powerful celebs and politicians value young women), and then makes fun of him because he doesn’t have the confidence to get young women.

Where is a young man, where everything he sees and touches tells him young sexy woman are Gods, supposed to get confidence and game? 7-11 from 5 -8 pm on weekdays?

Come on.

You're not wrong in anything you mention here, it's a huge part of the causes for many guys getting an externalized sense of self. It's not baffling to me either how they end up like they do. However, I was referring to guys who have been made aware of that and still choose to live in ignorance. Like those who have read countless posts on this forum and had every opportunity to get the point, but still insists on trying to please the judgements of everyone around them.

I see I should have made myself clearer, but hopefully I did that now.

 

[Serenity]

If one isn't experiencing external validation, I don't think internal confidence can just be summoned with the thought "I'm good enough". I think there needs to be one instance of meaningful external validation to summon it.

What came first? The chicken or the egg? How is a guy supposed to get the initial validation if he regards himself so negatively that it sabotages any chance of inspiring anyone to give such validation?

If you're thinking that internal confidence doesn't come without external validation, then the confidence isn't really internal, it is in fact missing the point entirely about internal confidence as it does NOT rely on external validation. The validation is not important and receiving validation doesn't fix the issue anyways, it just gets a guy hooked on it to continue feeling good about himself. If he can't keep up and doesn't get as much validation today as he did yesterday, then his confidence is quashed and he's back to square one.

You have to have success to sustain that internal confidence though. If the success doesn’t come consistently then you’ll lose confidence fast.

This is again the weakness of externalized confidence, it depends entirely on circumstances, most of which are beyond your control. You KNOW confident people have more success, right? So what happens if for some reason your results get a bit weaker? Your confidence takes a hit. What do we know about confidence? That confident people have more success, so now your lack of success is further amplified by a lack of confidence caused by a lack of success. Congratulations, you're now in a downward spiral. But... Maybe your luck turns around, you did better today than you did yesterday, finally some success! So you feel more confident which amplifies your success and further amplifies your confidence, until luck turns around again...

You don't need success at all to sustain internal confidence, because success and failure doesn't define internal confidence. I have strong internal confidence and I ask myself whether or not I did my absolute best trying to achieve the result I desire. It doesn't matter to my confidence whether I succeed or fail, if I did my best with the circumstances and the information I had at the time of doing it, then that's all that matters to me. Often there's better information in hindsight, but the best I can do with that is to take it with me for next time. The entire world can tell me they disapprove of my performance, but if I know I did my best at the time then they can all go fvck themselves.

When it comes to women it's the same. I'm doing my best, if that's not good enough for some woman then I don't care about her. Maybe I see in hindsight something I think could have done better, cool, next time then. Besides, one doesn't have to study women for long before realizing it's literally impossible to please them all, some of them are going to hate you regardless of how you are. I don't feel like I'm unworthy of them, I feel like they're unworthy of me. Here I am, a magnificent specimen of a man and they're too blind to realize, what fools.

 

[Serenity]

Says who? You? You're the expert on all things psychology? Who says a seed of external validation can't be a catalyst for the growth of internal confidence?

It can be a catalyst setting in motion a lot of changes, I'm saying it's not required. You initially argued you don't think it's possible without some initial validation, by the very nature of internal confidence I strongly disagree, no validation is required to get started.

Think about a friend that you heard sing, that sucks.... They think they sound good, but it's the external validation that is reality. If they get booed off stage and laughed at, are they a good singer? What about a perfumer that makes a scent that they think is the most beautiful scent, but other people think it stinks.... Is the scent good smelling? All it takes is one person to agree that the singer sounds good, and the perfumer made a good smelling fragrance, to make it a reality.

What's your point? I'm not telling anyone to be delusional and pretend not to hear constructive feedback, I'm telling guys to not cry and beat themselves up about it. I'm telling guys confidence doesn't have to depend on results. A good or bad performance on a stage doesn't define you, it's just feedback telling you there are things to improve for next time or that you did reasonably well. You don't need the validation to feel good about yourself, you should have that from knowing you did your best, even if your best was terrible.

Being attractive happens to you, it isn't your choice. Behavior aside.. Either the person is or isn't attracted to you. The elephant man can exude all the confidence in the world, but there's no way that normal women would find him attractive.

This is only true if you're already doing your absolute best with what you know, if you're not doing your best then it is your choice to forsake some of the opportunities you could have had.

 

[EyeBRollin]

“There are no ugly billionaires.”

 

[Who Dares Win]

The guy that bench presses his own body weight does it because he tried with a positive mindset or because he did already and knows it?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Nice read.

The researchers wrote: "Essentially, men who rated themselves high on attractiveness were more likely to over perceive women’s interest. The more attractive they actually were to women, however, the more likely they were to under perceive.

There is a nugget in that paragraph for those that might have missed it. On the flip side indifference can be percieved as attractive a long with knowing you look good.

Overpercieve interest = they thought women were giving them a green light so they went for it more often.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

How does one know they're attractive?

Either they believe it due to internal reasons or external reasons.

 

[IKO69]

How does one know they're attractive?

By the amount of attention you are getting and the quality of the girl. If you've had some nice looking girls interested in you then you can assume you are attractive. Note : let's say a fattie or two have liked you also, this doesn't suggest anything about being lower tier or something. I have heard men grumble about this before.

If not there you need to raise your profile and you'll get there. Earlier when I was getting lunch I saw one fella with a cute girlfriend, they were holding hands. This was a run of the mill guy with a pudgy belly who was definitely not a "Chad".

 

[Kotaix]

Again this goes to show that confidence is assumed and projected, not earned. If you believe in yourself you can accomplish things that everyone tells you you can't accomplish. This goes beyond women into many other aspects of life including work.

Maybe the ugly guys in the article are just narcissistic. It's a little hard to have that kind of confidence, if it wasn't reinforced by the opposite sex throughout life.

If you listen to haters or always measure yourself against others then you can always find a reason to not be good enough, and you never will be. They key is to not care and not take it personally if a woman doesn't think you're hot. It's only Narcissism when you're solipsistic or think that you're somehow better than everyone else.

 

[Kotaix]

Unless the guys is narcissistic, this just isn't realistic. What is realistic is seeing that one was attractive to an attractive person, and knowing there's no reason others wouldn't think so.

Why isn't this realistic? It's just an assumption that effects your state of mind when you approach a woman.

 

[IKO69]

I'm really surprised to see there is an actual debate about whether success breeds confidence....of course it does. Confidence is not something like eye color that you inherit at birth; you aren't born with say a level 7 out of 10 confidence and it follows you through life. In every area of our lives we started with low self confidence. When we began to crawl, walk, learn to ride a bike, game girls etc everyone single one of us have very low self belief. You were afraid you would stumble, fall, scrape your knee, get your feelings hurt (and this likely did happen many times)....but you picked yourself up and tried again. You repeated it over and over until you slowly got the hang of it and then it was automatic. The repeated successes reinforced your belief that you could do that thing and that is where you drew your strength from (in the future). This is the process of mastery for anything in this world.

I cannot see how it is possible to have a healthy self esteem if you do not have previous success to draw from, at least for most people. There are those, religious people for instance, who turn to the scriptures and they will read a psalm or something and that gives inspiration and comfort, but that is not indicative of strong self belief - just a belief in something external.

The ugly men in the study might've simply had previous success (You may say how? Think of the ugly ass jocks in highschool and college) and so were bolder when opportunities arose and due to the law of averages: they succeeded once in a while. Much better looking men who didn't have as much success were more sheepish, didn't act on opportunities (I would've been rejected anyway)

 

[BadBoy89]

What about the increasing popularity of hip hop music, where guys explain in detail how they chase women? Countless examples how to do it, it just depends what a man feeds to his own brain.

I hate to admit it but there is actually a decent point with the one above.

 

[SW15]

Where is a young man, where everything he sees and touches tells him young sexy woman are Gods, supposed to get confidence and game? 7-11 from 5 -8 pm on weekdays?

I have never done approaches at a convenience store but I have heard from women about getting approached there. I've only done more traditional grocery stores.

 

[BadBoy89]

I have never done approaches at a convenience store but I have heard from women about getting approached there. I've only done more traditional grocery stores.

Lol. Didn’t mean actual convenience stores.

Everyone keeps saying “game, game, game, game.” Well, where does one learn game? Is there a class in high school? University? Library? Mall? Travel?

When people say “men need to learn game” it’s a scapegoat. Because if the guy does anything, anything wrong with the hot girl that does not lead to sex, it can’t specified what he did wrong so he easily ends being a loser.

People can’t say “men need to learn full head of hair”, “men need to learn height”, “men need to learn rich”, those can be quantified. Because if a guy gets those things and still can’t get the girl, the blame falls on the person who said it. But game…oooh, that’s difficult quantify, so the blame falls on the man when he doesn't get the girl, and the person who said it is blameless.

But it’s still good.

 

[SW15]

Everyone keeps saying “game, game, game, game.” Well, where does one learn game? Is there a class in high school? University? Library? Mall? Travel?

Attraction and seduction are taught on YouTube channels and in books. A lotr of men are flailing because there's not a clear path in which men are taught to seduce and have sexual success with women.

When people say “men need to learn game” it’s a scapegoat. Because if the guy does anything, anything wrong with the hot girl that does not lead to sex, it can’t specified what he did wrong so he easily ends being a loser.

People can’t say “men need to learn full head of hair”, “men need to learn height”, “men need to learn rich”, those can be quantified. Because if a guy gets those things and still can’t get the girl, the blame falls on the person who said it. But game…oooh, that’s difficult quantify, so the blame falls on the man when he doesn't get the girl, and the person who said it is blameless.

You can adjust who you approach/seduce based on height. If I, at 5'10", decide to focus on 5'11"+ volleyball players, I'm likely wasting a lot of time. If I, at 5'10", focus on 5'3"-5'7" women, I'm likely not wasting my time.

Chasing money can get a guy women. It's not automatic.

Hair helps a lot.

A lot of men are continually guessing on what went wrong in certain interactions. Most men won't get any feedback when an interaction sours.

 

[Gamisch]

Lol. Didn’t mean actual convenience stores.

Everyone keeps saying “game, game, game, game.” Well, where does one learn game? Is there a class in high school? University? Library? Mall? Travel?

When people say “men need to learn game” it’s a scapegoat. Because if the guy does anything, anything wrong with the hot girl that does not lead to sex, it can’t specified what he did wrong so he easily ends being a loser.

People can’t say “men need to learn full head of hair”, “men need to learn height”, “men need to learn rich”, those can be quantified. Because if a guy gets those things and still can’t get the girl, the blame falls on the person who said it. But game…oooh, that’s difficult quantify, so the blame falls on the man when he doesn't get the girl, and the person who said it is blameless.

But it’s still good.

Imo the biggest strength of the English language is that one word can become a complete definition. The term " game " is some kinda slang, a jargon.

When a man meets a woman both know its " game time". Like when a man squares off with another man. Sleeves getting rolled up , and both know what's about to happen. Game on.

That's having game imo. You recognize the moment and act accordingly. And no, this can't be taught without real life experiences. Through the trenches. If a man never take risks he'll never grasp the feeling what game means. It's about closing the deal. Making the goal, slam dunking the ball.

Women will translate game (or lack off) as confidence, swag, being smooth, witty, charismatic.

It's vague terminology, but if you got it you just know what it is.