Cluster B and "normal" people.

[Knight's Cross]

Bingo on the insight Reset and Jophil. My Ex BPD Gal did EXACTLY the same ping pong dance. She alternated between guys that she was controlled by (Other Narcisistic/ Sociopath whackos) to guys that she tried to control herself through her own BPD behavior (me, and one other guy that from what I gather had it together and told her to pack sand as well).

To the OP: Many guys that find the SS forum are quick to label women. It's very easy to put a sticker on someone and group them into a stereotype. We aren't talking about normal behaviors here. That's why anyone who has been in a relationship with a Cluster B type woman will tell you to RUN and get as far as possible from her. I also believe that until I found this forum, I had no idea what BPD was. So you have guys like myself that know something is wrong, but don't know what it is. That's where members like K-X, and Jophil have helped me OPEN MY EYES to what I was dealing with.

Yes, this is just an internet forum. The REAL WORLD field reports you are hearing here are what you are going to get, we are not counselors or psychologists, although some here have worked in support group activities. They do have a GOOD understanding of what the Cluster B behaviors are about. Many of us are also just educated men applying reason to understand what we are involved with. Thats enough for me. So if it helps some guys make an assessment with what they are dealing with, more the better.

KC

 

[jophil28]

Many of us are also just educated men applying reason to understand what we are involved with. Thats enough for me. So if it helps some guys make an assessment with what they are dealing with, more the better.

KC

Whether a particular troublesome woman is clinically BPD or NPD or Sociopath is NOT really the issue. The important point is that she is troublesome and her behavior is causing you pain, resentment, and it is CONTAMINATING your relationship with her. A valuable woman will CONTRIBUTE to your life and you will find FULFILMENT in those little corners of your existence which were vacant before she came along.
Paradoxically, the greater the VACANCY in your life, the greater the sense of fulfilment, BUT also the greater the pain if you try to find satisfaction with a troublesome woman.

When I meet a new woman who interests me, I listen to her stories - her history will tell you a lot about who and what she is. I have HAD to develop a system of "looking through a glass darkly" (Apostle Paul) to filter out a new woman's attempts to portay herself as some kind of innocent and hapless but noble victim of her past. This plaintiff cry from women seems to be universal. According to them, they never contribute to their ill fortune -it is ALWAYS some man's fault. Now that is ridiculous. It is more likely that women have developed the cunning art of transforming their personal vices and failings into public virtues.
A woman's history tells me how she functions in relationships inspite of her skilful attempts to cast herself as the grand heroine of the piece.

So I guess the point that I am making here is to NOT go to 'diagnostic mode'
in the very early stage of a new connection with a woman- just listen to her history before you go into an LTR because you are about to become the latest leading man in a remake of her life movie.

 

[mzilla2]

A lot of good posts in here.

X2 on subtly extracting and carefully listening to a woman's history and the way she frames things - as a victim or a survivor? It can tell you SO much!

 

[logic1]

A woman's history tells me how she functions in relationships inspite of her skilful attempts to cast herself as the grand heroine of the piece.

So I guess the point that I am making here is to NOT go to 'diagnostic mode'
in the very early stage of a new connection with a woman- just listen to her history before you go into an LTR because you are about to become the latest leading man in a remake of her life movie.

Jophil, you are right on the money with this! This is why a lot of the people who are confused and lost on what is going on in their relationship should know the dating history of the women.

So many come on this board with the same problems but never thought about seeing what her past was like.

After being turned to mush by a PD this is the first thing I pay attention to. If you let them they will eventually reveal themselfs. But man are they good actresses!!! The one I met could have won an oscar!

 

[KontrollerX]

One thing to keep in mind about their superb acting skills is that they may not really be acting in the traditional sense.

When they are good to you and the mask of sanity and normalcy is at its strongest they are fully engaged in their walking daydream.

You think they are fully engaged with you at the time but they are not present in the moment.

They appear to be, they appear to be like a normal woman with their apparent high level of interest and the way they look at you and everything indicates with this person that the lights are on with them and they are not mentally ill...

In reality though all your relationship with such a girl ever was, was her walking daydream and fantasy but the problem with dreams is we tend to wake up and the problem with fantasy is that it is not reality and eventually reality must be entered back into.

So when the Histrionic or Borderline wakes up out of their daydream with you the experience of reality is far too painful for them to face and so they must begin dreaming again, avoiding again, finding distraction again and a new personality to latch onto because too much of the ugliness inside themselves and truth about themselves is now being revealed to her in you.

Your want with her of a deeper connection, you seeing flaws in her and pointing them out, your harmless and helpful criticisms that men and women make to eachother all the time without ill intent...all of this begins to wake the histrionic and borderline up out of their daydream fantasy of you to the shallow emptiness of their entire being, the reality of who they really are and it is absolutely overwhelming and frightening for this child woman to deal with, this woman that lacks true growth maturity and coping skills to understand and properly handle all of the pain that she is now dealing with in facing the harsh reality her condition and her unwillingness to fight against it has hid from her all of those dark daydream fantasy clouded mentally fogged up and clogged up years.

So the fantasy is shattered and the dream awoken from, she can no longer use you as her parchment to paint her fantasy life story on because the parchment of you is covered in uncomfortable truths about her that no form of ink removal methods can blot out so she must seek out someone new.

Someone untainted with the truth about her emptiness reflected in his soul back at her painfully clear for her to see.

Someone to whom she can paint a new fantasy and ideal dreamworld for herself until his attempts to get closer also reveal her inner emptiness as the parchment of you eventually did before him and so the cycle continues.

They continually seek out the new with a blank slate so that they can live out their dreamworld fantasy continually victimizing others and themselves rather than doing the painful work of finding themselves and becoming a real person that no longer reflects eternal emptiness that can never be filled but light, warmth, true caring and true substance.

Its important to note that facing who they truly are ie the emptiness and what made them HPD or BPD in the first place be it sexual abuse, a neglectful parent or whatever is absolutely horrifying for them to deal with and having the emotional maturity of a child even while in an adult body well thats just something else to add on top of all of that.

Those that do the courageous work of getting help are few and are best served by a therapist of the same sex who has had their fair share of excitement in life. Therapists that are best for them are those without any weaknesses to the condition's pathology.

For anyone who has HBO watch the show "In Treatment" in specific the episodes featuring Laura.

She is a classic case of Histrionic Personality Disorder and the character has not only disrupted the therapist's marriage by making the therapist fall in love with her but also slept with another one of the therapist's patients to try and provoke jealousy in him. The patient sensed that the therapist was in love with Laura and provoked him about many of his flaws that he'd researched and found out which led to the therapist throwing hot coffee in that patient's face.

So you all can see well what disruption these people can cause even with professional care.

A fictional show yes but a realistic depiction no doubt.

 

[reset]

Good Post KX. It's actually helpful to see them as human beings. They aren't EVIL. That's the victim mentality. Yes they do victimize and yes they act in horrible ways. But they are just damaged inside. It's not like they were born evil. It's good to come back to reality and not paint them into these monsters with super-powers.

 

[jophil28]

It's actually helpful to see them as human beings. They aren't EVIL. That's the victim mentality.

Scott Peck disagrees with you - he is right and you are misguided.
Was Hitler only evil because his "victims" felt victimised. NO, he was evil because his BEHAVIOR towards innocent people was vile and his actions are still regarded as evil by those of us who were NOT victims..
Feelings of being "victimised" are not what defines a perpetrators behavior as evil -it is the very nature of the behavior itself..
Despicable behavior is vile behavior because it still looks that way to untouched observers who were not victimised.
Evil is as evil does..it is absolute and irrefutable.

 

[reset]

Well Scott Peck is a religious dude from what I remember. Maybe we're parsing words. I'm saying they are not BORN evil. I don't believe in original sin. Along the way they got messed up and yes did evil ACTIONS, but they are not "evil" at their core. I don't think hitler was born with little horns sticking out of his head. He had to BECOME what he became.

Maybe it's just semantics. My point was, yeah they act horribly and they shouldn't get away with it. But they are not special and otherworldly, and we can give them those attributes. They are damaged people. They should be held responsible for their actions.

Maybe you saw what I wrote as condoning their behavior. I don't condone what happened to me, that's for sure. I'm saying they are not super-villains.

As far as scott peck disagreeing with me and therefore I am wrong, no thanks.

 

[Latinoman]

I think that the difference between drama queens and histrionic/bpd chicks, is a somewhat "normal" girl, after she's gotten the drama out of her system, has the potential to kind of be normal. She may be pissed off, and still acting like a bytch, but once much of it is out of her system she'll KIND OF be normal, sort of. IF that makes sense.

But when a BPD/Histrionic chick hates you, they just hate you. That's it. The hatred in their eyes does not diminish naturally over time, once you're "out" you may as well be Hitler because that's what you're going to be treated like. God forbid you still have contact with the chick after this point, because she'll make your life a living hell, on purpose, LONG after the "cut off" point where a semi-normal chick will kind of semi-get over it.

Eventually you realize "there is something not right with this girl, and it goes beyond drama. She's just not "right", I can't put my finger on it."

Damn, that's VERY scary. VERY scary.

 

[reset]

Yeah it is scary. I think I've learned more how to deal and avoid this type of situation in the future.

 

[jophil28]

Reset >>>Along the way they got messed up and yes did evil ACTIONS, but they are not "evil" at their core.

Jophil >>>> How would you know what was at their core?
PD women (and men) at the extreme end of the continuum ARE untreatable. That is why we have jails to contain the sociopaths who have wrecked innocent victim's lives. WE wisely keep them caged so that they cannot do more damage. BPDs ,NPDs and Sociopaths are repeat offenders in or out of jail. That means that they are their disease. It does not matter a fig whether they were born or "made' that way. What matters is that we regard them as people to utterly avoid or incarcerate.

They get NO sympathy from me. no handwringing or 'liberal' sugarcoated empathy. Understanding and sympathy rightly belongs to their victims .

Read Richard Skerritt's books and then you will get a more realistic appraisal of these monsters.

REset >>> ..don't condone what happened to me, that's for sure. I'm saying they are not super-villains.

Jophil >>> Yes they are . You are is some kind of fog about how decayed and malevolent these people are. They have NO scruples and no conscience .
However we are not powerless to act either, BUT we need to know that female PDs are out there and we will contact at least two or three in our dating life. WE need to be forearmed with the knowledge to recognize one when she comes along and RUN rather that give her a hug because of her alleged bad upbringing.

The signs and symptoms of Cluster Bs are well known and freely available. Those female BPDs do know what they are doing BECAUSE they 'act' their way into your life, into your affections and your confidence and THEN the mindgames and the downward spiral begin, not to mention the lies and the cheating, and the twisting of the truth, and the drug use and so ...all the while playing the sweet innocent victim.


Reset >>> As far as scott peck disagreeing with me and therefore I am wrong, no thanks.

Jophil >>> Scott Peck is a respected psychiatrist and author as well as a "religious dude"...Try Border's..
You might benefit from some of Alice MIllers books too, She tells it like it is without that "religious" stuff.

Jophil28

 

[reset]

Jophil I know who Scott Peck is and I have read one of his books a few years ago.

I don't know if you've read my experiences, but I have BEEN THROUGH THIS. It's horrible, and I wanted to die. Probably the worst experience of my life.

Of course they should be judged by their actions. They are sick. They should be treated like people who you don't want to associate with and you should do everything in your power to remove yourself from them and protect yourself from their games.

But like Kontroller said, they become this way for a reason. The reason is what creates the disorder. They weren't born BPD. They are not demons or monsters, even though their actions are like that. It helps to understand what they do, their fears of abandonment, that they have no real "self". Having that knowledge gives you power. It's not about empathy, it's about understanding human nature, and this specific type of personality.

I think you may be reading more into what I posted than I intended. Nowhere did I say be empathetic or enter captain save-a ho scenarios. AGAIN---my point being (seems to be yours too) is the more knowledge you have, the better prepared you can be, hopefully without going down the emotional rabbit hole that awaits you.

What gives the man more power? "Oh that evil bytch! I hate her! Only someone so cold and evil could do this to someone like me!"

or "This chick seems to have the characteristics of a disorder that I am familiar with. She acts irrationally, rages at me, paints me black, has severe abandonment issues, doesn't seem to understand the concept of right and wrong. She has major issues and that sucks but I can't save her or help her, I've been down this road, I am going to remove myself from this situation and not have my ego involved"

I don't think we're really disagreeing here.

 

[KontrollerX]

I have to agree with reset.

They are not evil in the religious sense of the term.

Could we judge them as bad people like any normal person that did us wrong? Definitely.

Psychiatrist Al Bernstein author of Emotional Vampires says that while these people are sick we cannot think of them as we would another mentally ill kind of person or a sick person in the physical sense where you naturally might let them get away with some actions that would be hurtful if they were healthy but understandable while they are sick as more of a frustration with their sickness than you...

In that even though these Cluster B people have disordered personalities there is enough awareness in HPD's, BPD's and NPD's of right and wrong and what they should do as opposed to what they naturally feel like doing that is enough for society, a social group they are involved with or even the criminal justice system to hold them accountable for going through with many of their harmful actions ie they shouldn't get an automatic pass for hurting people just because they are disordered.

ASPD's I left out of what I said in the last paragraph because they have no feeling at all of right and wrong though they intellectually understand the terms. The last paragraph was about the other cluster b's on some level being emotionally aware of what they do as wrong but the ASPD's are only intellectually aware of this fact hence the seperate paragraph.

Even with ASPD's also known as sociopaths/psychopaths however Robert Hare the world expert on sociopaths says that ASPD's are aware enough of what they are doing to also be held accountable for their actions.

In healing from the damage these people do us there are many valid approaches that can help to numb or alleviate the pain.

-You can hate the one that harmed you for a time or until the anger dissipates either a lot or completely and hey perhaps all of the anger will never fully be gone. These people are that damaging to some of their victims.

-You can forgive them if you believe that this will bring you release from your pain.

-You can simply skip forgiving them entirely if that is what you wish since forgiveness should only be given to someone that is truly sorry and asks for this genuinely and hey lets face it these people are so concerned with themselves and their needs and wants in the moment and the new victim they'll seldom truly be sorry to you unless of course you are scheduled to be hoovered back into their life with a phony apology but anyway you can skip forgiving them and focus instead on just forgetting them and letting the pain go as best you can and maybe turn your focus from hating them to simply pitying them if you feel you must regard them in any way in order to move on the best you can.

-Forgiving yourself. A lot of the time Cluster B victims feel like a fool. How could I ever of believed a girl as beautiful as that would really want me? Why did I act so AFC and chase her?? Why??? Why??? Why??? You can stop those thoughts anytime you want to. This wasn't your fault. You were perfectly manipulated by a human being that was born to manipulate. It doesn't make you a fool but misinformed and ignorant of knowledge that would of saved you from a whole lot of wasted time and heart ache but you are not a fool. No a fool is someone who knows what these people are and comes on Sosuave trying to learn how to get into a relationship with one and sadly I've seen many posts about trying to "tame" these women and asking for advice on how to do this while I've been here. There is no taming of them. Even if you win the game for a while they will change it up at random or suddenly and without warning lose interest in you by waking up from their fantasy daydream. On the forum I used to moderate a guy's 20 year marriage ended with one of these women because she randomly fell in fantasy love with a plumber and cheated on her successful businessman DJ husband. The guy was heartbroken and taken for a ride by this sick woman but I talked to him for a long time and he was no fool. Again just misinformed his entire time with her until the end.

-To close out this section I will say that many victims skip back and forth in their recovery from their negative experiences with these people by jumping from hating them one minute to feeling bad about demonizing a sick person the next and I will say listen...this person has harmed you. You have every right to regard the person that harmed you as vermin, as human scum for your entire life. This person damaged you. You don't have to suddenly try and reclaim your status as a good and kind person by looking at the one that harmed you as sick and thus blameless. The person that harmed you is every bit responsible for the harm they caused and do not deserve any more emotional energy from you in any way. Yes they are sick but not in a way that completely impairs their ability to make a choice that will either harm you or make you happy. So instead focus not on feeling anything good for them once you really get serious about recovering but instead focus all of that worthwhile emotional energy you have on yourself and getting your mind back from the pit of despair and upside down world it was exposed to for far too long. Forget them as best you know how. The ones that harm you greatly either normal or Cluster B do not deserve one second more of your time.

So even while I disagree with jophil's evil diagnosis because I am an atheist and not religious I suppose in another way I do in fact agree with him but use other terms to judge Cluster B's that have harmed people and I do agree they need to be held accountable wherever possible for the harm that they do.

The terms I use in place of evil are "bad people" or "emotional vampires".

So while I disagree with jophil it is mostly in the semantics not in the full sense that he is getting at.

 

[reset]

Good post Kontroller. While it was happening obviously, I hated her. It was literally a nightmare. But enough time has passed that I've gotten a little perspctive, and at this point, it does ME no personal good to hate her anymore. Frankly, it toughened me up, even though it was a horrible way to get there. It gives me a sense of relief when I remove the ego and try to understand what I went through in a more detached way. I don't remember who said this but it was "hatred is taking poison and hoping it kills the other guy".

But yes, I did need to hate her for a time to get my sense of self back and had every right to. Now I feel pity. It changed me. I am trying to make something positive out of the experience. I would not be here or on this road otherwise.

Man what a heavy thread. I think I'm ready to put this stuff behind me.

 

[jophil28]

The terms I use in place of evil are "bad people" or "emotional vampires".

So while I disagree with jophil it is mostly in the semantics not in the full sense that he is getting at.

You may not like the word "evil" but I do. You will get no argument from me about the rest of your post (and Reset's post as well )
I never "hated" my ex BPD g/f..still don't.. MY pain came from the internal volcano that erupted many times when my beliefs about women came into collision with her behavior.
The real issue here is that we have been violently shaken out of the Matrix by our experience with a BPD woman .
"Sugar and spice and all things nice " Indeed !

MY heart goes out to those good men out there who are still suffering in bewilderment at the whims and mindgames of another disordered woman who thinks that she is impervious to consequences and entitled to create human wreckage without a blink or a moments loss of sleep.

 

[iqqi]

Very interesting reads here.

I know a few pyschos myself...

Anyways, I think I saw Jophil touch on this very eloquently, but reset, and KX, did you guys address what it was that made you choose someone so mental to fall in love with?

Don't take the easy way out, and say "she tricked me". Because there are always signs!

I am curious to what your answer is though...

 

[KontrollerX]

Oh reset and I have already admitted in the past here iqqi baby that we were huge AFC's with no self love, no self respect and no self esteem but that wasn't what made us fall for these wackos iqqi honey oh no.

What it was, is that reset and myself have...well...had...a saviour complex.

A sweet pretty thing that is acting all broken up was all too appealing to us not because we were looking to prey on easy pickings (dirty minded old iqqi tee hee) but because we fell in love with ourselves vicariously through the girl.

You see dear iqqi it wasn't the broken girl in front of us that we loved oh no it was the broken little boy we both were when we were younger in need of the proper love and respect from parents, society, friends and neighbors that we didn't get or at least didn't get in the correct way.

Because of this lack of love we part subconsciously, part consciously neglected loving ourselves ie that proper and positive self talk healthy people do their whole lives that fills them with confidence and belief in themselves.

We were desperately in need of this self love and the girl allowed us to love ourselves, our broken crying self through her and we put up with the disrespect and abuse because we'd never felt such love before.

The love we could of had at any time had our eyes only been opened that this love comes from within.

Thats not to say these women are not deviously clever and tricksy hobbit iqqi.

They are and they have fooled normal healthy men like jophil simply by their attractiveness and sweetness and lights act.

We men mostly need to be aware of HPD's and BPD's and avoid them in the dating scene while you women sweet iqqi need to avoid narcissists and sociopaths that are all too exciting and willing to sweep you off your feet with their glib superficial charm and mask of sanity think Michael C. Hall as Dexter in the show of that name.

Nice, cute, cool, exciting guy wouldn't you say?

Nope though.

Dex is a sociopath and he will as soon cut your heart out as he will try and win it.

 

[iqqi]

... while you women sweet iqqi need to avoid narcissists and sociopaths that are all too exciting and willing to sweep you off your feet with their glib superficial charm and mask of sanity think Michael C. Hall as Dexter in the show of that name.

Nice, cute, cool, exciting guy wouldn't you say?

Nope though.

Dex is a sociopath and he will as soon cut your heart out as he will try and win it.

I'm a hobbit now.



Anyways, - oh, I know a few pyschos.

Who remembers the guy I almost ran away with years ago? Talk about a pyscho. I am trying to figure out why I still after all this time and BS still value him, besides his insanely crazy and fascinating, adventorous (sp?) life.

I think it is because he does not use the right side of his brain at all, only the left. It is good exercise for my left side of the brain to engage him in conversation!

AND it doesn't help that he is insanely gorgeous... and persistent (4 years!?...)

My point in asking you all, is my philosophy that the broken are attracted to the broken. That ppl get themselves in messed up relationships when they have something they need to address within.

 

[KontrollerX]

Correct iqqi.

As I have said on the forum before "like attracts like".

backbreaker said a similar quote once or had it in his profile that went along the lines of whatever is inside you or whatever you think about most you will attract into your life.

Sounds like a magical thinking type of quote on its surface but its very true.

Ahh yes and iqqi keep in mind that many of the crazies be they male or female are indeed insanely attractive.

I liken it to one of those killer plants like a venus flytrap maybe.

Pretty to draw you in but deadly to the touch.

 

[iqqi]

Well damn, I knew you all were fvcked up!