Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Anyone pull off LTR without marriage??

Tenacity

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Colossus,

But what study are you getting these social, emotional and financial facts from, and do they represent the marketplace today in 2014/2015?

From what I've studied, today, married couples have lower sexual satisfaction compared to singles, single men make more than married men due to the additional work time factor alone not even counting the other variables, in terms of both spouses bringing in income that might be true but it comes down to the percentage breakdown, and the stable home factor I have no idea where that comes from because the reports I have read show marriage creates a stressful household for the most part.

In terms of Risk Management, let me break down this further:

- You cannot successfully "weed out" a bad spouse like you can "weed out" a bad business partner or bad employee for the most part. When you are dealing with business you have a tangible aspect to draw from and draw on, you have previous performance reports, and in terms of a business partner either they have the experience, capital, and proper vision or they don't. Most of the time if you do all of your filtering upfront, you can avoid bad partners. You can't do this with a wife because there's NO tangibles, it's all emotional. The woman's emotions can change based on factors and variables that have nothing at all to do with you.

- A Prenuptial Agreement is not insurance, it's not cut and dry like Term Life insurance where if you die during the policy period without committing suicide, then your beneficiary gets a $250,000 check. All a Prenuptial Agreement is, is a "supposed" prior arranged divorce proceeding in terms of the separation of assets. It's "supposed," which means, you have no idea what will truly be separated until the divorce occurs as it will depend on the actual STATUS of both spouses at the time of the divorce. The Judge could throw out the Prenuptial Agreement. Just as you mentioned about the waiver of Alimony, you can sign that waiver at the beginning and throw it in with the Prenuptial Agreement, but that doesn't mean it will be held up at the end.

Guys, just don't get married. The social, emotional and financial benefits that are promoted in the mainstream media just aren't true man. You will have more money and MAKE more money being single than married, as well as your social and emotional health being HIGHER as a single than as married. Your sexual satisfaction will be better because instead of having ONE woman that you have to beg and plead sex out of, you have a rotation of 5 or 6 women that you can get sex from anytime you want and a SEA of new women you can go meet and grab it from as well.
 

ZTIME

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Since my main thread on this site is about some crazy ex, I figured I'd throw in a little knowledge on my long past LTR.

From the age of 22 till the age of 36 I was with one girl. I'd say she was a solid 7. 5'7", 115lbs, great rack, and very pretty.

Back then, I was completely Alpha and truly had no problems picking up or dating women. I was just really comfortable with this girl.

Since I lived with this girl, we did enjoy the benefits of most LTR couples: shared income, reduced living expenses (1 house payment), great sex life, and a whole lot of shared experiences.

She only worked 4 days a week, so it allowed me to concentrate on my career path while she was able to take care of the home needs and many other items.

I'd have to say that this was a great relationship. But the biggest hurdle was to maintain a huge level of trust, which after 14 years slowly dwindled away. (On her part). I got busted!

Now, if I had been married, I would have lost half of a very successful company, half or all of my house, and a lot of money including an expensive lawyer. Since I wasn't married and Florida has no "Common Law" marriage, I got away with what I was willing to give up (a little cash and a rental condo).

The end of the whole relationship really sucked! Lots of regret and bad feelings.

Fast forward 7 years to the present. I met this same girl for ****tails 3 weeks ago. She said she heard I was going through a rough time and wanted to know if I wanted to chat with her about it, so I said sure.

I've got to tell you that I am sooo happy I never married and got out when I did. I couldn't believe what happened in 7 years!! My "perfect girl" was replaced by a girl who is absolutely loaded with tattoos and abut 45lbs heavier! She took her unbelievably long hair, cut it short and colored it bright red. She looked horrible!!

She's getting married in January. I feel really bad for the guy. I'm sure she is still very nice and will make a great wife, but I would never be able to picture an overweight, tattooed, Ronald Mcdonald in a wedding dress walking down any isle I'd be connected to.

So that's my LTR no marriage experience...enjoy.
 

sodbuster

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pumpkin-head said:
Marriage has been the foundation and stronghold of values for centuries. We are on Earth for this very reason to procreate with marriage raising a family. Men who don't want to get married are either afraid of marriage or can't find a suitor to get married.
D@MN right I'm afraid to get married.... you've never lived until your life is being decided by a JUDGE in Divorce Court. When half your stuff can go away in an instant.... Now IF I HAD NOTHING? It wouldn't be a problem.

You've been mislead by society to believe in "happy ever after", well; she sin't happy and it isn't forever after..... In today's society, SHE can get a stupid feminist idea that women are smarter than men and should rule them. Happened to me..... when I decided I wasn't going to let someone DUMBER than I am lead my life.... Divorce Court came calling.

I'll do it again IF I have an IRONCLAD prenup, but not any other way.
 

Knight's Cross

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Wait for it.....
Alright Here's the view from my foxhole:
44 Single, Divorced 14 Years ago, no kids. Earnings 150k a year
Now why the F would I mess all that up getting married? I come as I go, do as I wish, and my house? The whole damn thing is a mancave. Not just some corner....
I may not slay it, but I get plenty of women now via all avenues. OLD, meeting them at the grocery store, running club, cycling events....

As for earning, most of the guys I am competing with for all purposes have 1 hand tied behind their back and a blindfold on. 98% of the married ones are hobbled by marriage. The kids, the controlling wife. Screw that song...

Kids would be about the only reason I'd do a LTR, and she'd have to be old world. Right now I don't care to have them.

KC
 

Colossus

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My responses in blue.


Tenacity said:
Colossus,

But what study are you getting these social, emotional and financial facts from, and do they represent the marketplace today in 2014/2015?

Read the references at the bottom of the article listed in my last post. It's a start.


From what I've studied, today, married couples have lower sexual satisfaction compared to singles, single men make more than married men due to the additional work time factor alone not even counting the other variables, in terms of both spouses bringing in income that might be true but it comes down to the percentage breakdown, and the stable home factor I have no idea where that comes from because the reports I have read show marriage creates a stressful household for the most part.

Don't agree, I think the addition of children creates stressful households, not necessarily marriage. That argument would be null anyways, since the same supposed misery could be attained through cohabitation.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022478919443

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

TLDR; Marital happiness decreases after the birth of a child, and is more pronounced in infancy for women, and in general for people who make more money.


In terms of Risk Management, let me break down this further:

- You cannot successfully "weed out" a bad spouse like you can "weed out" a bad business partner or bad employee for the most part. When you are dealing with business you have a tangible aspect to draw from and draw on, you have previous performance reports, and in terms of a business partner either they have the experience, capital, and proper vision or they don't. Most of the time if you do all of your filtering upfront, you can avoid bad partners. You can't do this with a wife because there's NO tangibles, it's all emotional. The woman's emotions can change based on factors and variables that have nothing at all to do with you.

This is only partially true. There are many demonstrated tangibles that are PREDICTORS of marital dissolution, and even predictors of mental illness in women:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953601003240

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/189/6/547.short

TLDR; Poor socioeconomic status, tobacco use, Gynecological problems, being married to a deadbeat/addict/abuser, and baseline neurotic or antisocial tendencies are all predictors of women going batsh!t later in life.

http://jfi.sagepub.com/content/23/3/392.short

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

TLDR; Increasing experience of premarital sex, premarital birth, cohabitation, and racial and religious heterogamy detract from marital stability. Cohabitation is not a predictor of dissolution if you live with the one---and only that one---you eventually marry.


- A Prenuptial Agreement is not insurance, it's not cut and dry like Term Life insurance where if you die during the policy period without committing suicide, then your beneficiary gets a $250,000 check. All a Prenuptial Agreement is, is a "supposed" prior arranged divorce proceeding in terms of the separation of assets. It's "supposed," which means, you have no idea what will truly be separated until the divorce occurs as it will depend on the actual STATUS of both spouses at the time of the divorce. The Judge could throw out the Prenuptial Agreement. Just as you mentioned about the waiver of Alimony, you can sign that waiver at the beginning and throw it in with the Prenuptial Agreement, but that doesn't mean it will be held up at the end.

Prenups vary greatly depending on how they are drafted and the state in which you reside, since marital law is largely state-controlled. They are not always ironclad, but this depends on the two parties entering into it.

http://www.beinerlaw.com/articles/The Uniform Premarital Agreement Act.pdf

TLDR; Prenups can be surprisingly strong, but, again, it depends on how they are drafted.


Guys, just don't get married. The social, emotional and financial benefits that are promoted in the mainstream media just aren't true man. You will have more money and MAKE more money being single than married, as well as your social and emotional health being HIGHER as a single than as married. Your sexual satisfaction will be better because instead of having ONE woman that you have to beg and plead sex out of, you have a rotation of 5 or 6 women that you can get sex from anytime you want and a SEA of new women you can go meet and grab it from as well.
I used to be pretty strongly anti-marriage, but the more I learn the more I realize it's not very realistic for most of us, and the dangers are overstated. Any guy smart enough to figure out women and this DJ thing can significantly mitigate risks if he wants to marry.

There's nothing wrong with not getting married, and you certainly eliminate some risk of hardship from your life. Unfortunately, you really present nothing in the way of evidence here to back up YOUR claims, just anecdotes and opinion. I just gave you a sampling of peer-reviewed data that backs up my previous post, in addition to what I already linked. So step your game up if want to make a more solid argument, or just leave it as your opinion.
 

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Knight's Cross

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Colossus you put forth some valid data. I'm just relating my own life experience. Which for me marriage has always been a raw deal. Maybe 40 years ago I could have bought into it, not today. I see way too many guys that are taken to the cleaners, or have decided the once a month lay (if that) is worth the purchase price.
KC
 

Mauser96

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Danger said:
I am with my gf of almost 5 years now. I told her I didn't want to get married and she wasn't too into that idea at first, but she accepted it

We have different checking accounts, no mixed money at all. The only thing we have done jointly is buy a house together, and we split the mortgage right down the center.

She is a fantastic girl. Attractive, sweet, feminine, does all of the domestic stuff while I do the more manly chores.

When you have dominance, value and backbone, you can accomplish it. Although there are some (even here) who would tell you "she will break up with you if you hold her to your standards". Don't fall for that tripe. Just keep raising your value and don't compromise your expectations. There are some good catches out there, you just have to be willing to filter through a lot of bad options.
You are doing it exactly right - my GF has been pushing for this, and I would be open to it except for the fact that where I live, after one year, you are "common-law" married, which carries the same benefits/risks as regular marriage.

That is a tough bridge to cross, for me.
 

Mauser96

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I agree with most of your thoughts here bud, but read my red
Colossus said:
The argument against marriage for men is pretty straightforward. The most common reason given for men not to get married is that the financial outcome of divorce proceedings is seen to be unfair and often disastrous. Which, if you ever been through it, is HUGE

Usually, along with this, issues and concerns about custody of children are brought up as well, along with other concerns about losing the freedom to make life choices and so on. Generally, these issues vary so much on a case-by-case basis that they’re difficult to reasonably discuss.

I am no marriage champion by any means, and I'll be the first to admit our current culture introduces more risks than ever before for men who choose to get married. Most, if not all, of these risks present consequences only in the event of divorce, and they are complicated exponentially by children.

I think marriage itself gets an unnecessarily bad rap around here, and there really aren't a lot of facts to back it up, just anecdotes of men who had horrific experiences with marriage and divorce. Those stories should not be ignored, but the plural of anecdotes is not data, and I think we should stop looking at marriage as something that is intrinsically bad.It may get a bad rap, but let's consider this:

50% of all marriages fail.
Of those that fail, WOMEN are the ones who file 75% of the time
Women get custody of the kids the majority of the time
Women get the family home the majority of the time.
IF it goes bad, you are powerless to stop it, where I live, and you will be eating Kraft Dinner for YEARS, while you pay alimony and child support to her, so she can live in your house, with a new man, raising your kids. Think long and hard about that







Social and emotional benefits:

-Married couples report greater sexual satisfaction.

-Married women report higher levels of physical and psychological health.

-Married people are more likely to volunteer.

-Being married increases the likelihood of affluence.

-Married people tend to experience less depression and fewer problems with alcohol.

-Getting married increases the probability of moving out of a poor neighborhood.

-Married men make more money.

-Married women are less likely to experience poverty.

-Marriage is associated with a lower mortality risk.

These are all demonstrated, validated benefits. See below.

(refs)

Financial benefits:

-Almost always, you’re both going to be bringing in an income.

-You both benefit from economies of scale, meaning your expenses won’t rise as much as your income will.

-You have greater earnings stability.

-You have greater earnings potential, too.

-You have the “stable home” factor.

Granted, the above can ostensibly be achieved by cohabiting, but there are numerous other federal, state, and healthcare/end-of-life related benefits you cannot get by simply cohabiting.



"But what about the risk and pain of divorce?"

You cannot eliminate all risk from a marriage, just like you cant eliminate all risk from a business deal, or lease, or buying a dog. You are dealing with another living being. What you can do is mitigate as much risk as possible:

-Select properly, even if it takes years, and don’t get married until you’re absolutely sure.
Shouldn't need to be said, but it does.Here is the problem. People change. Their wants, needs, desires change, as well as thier GREED. The woman you marry is NO WHERE EVEN CLOSE to the women that you divorce.

-if you have assets you want to protect, get a prenupital agreement.
Self-explanatory, but many state also will allow you to add a waiver of alimony to your prenup. This waives one or both parties from ever claiming alimony, unless at the time of divorce it would cause one person to be impoverished.

-look at your behavior and your partner’s behavior honestly
Are either of you engaging in activities or behaviors that could reasonably lead to divorce?People change my friend. My ex-wife wasn't a raging alcoholic when we married. She was when we divorced, and still is.It has caused ENORMOUS amounts of grief, trouble, and embarrassment for my kids and I. Cheating,Wasn't a cheater at the start, but was at the end heavy drinking, harder drugs, risky professions, etc. Is there anything about her you find borderline tolerable now that could worsen with time?No one will predict this with 100% certainty. I NEVER would have believed the "sweet girl" I married, would later cheat on me, become an alcoholic, steal money in preparation for the divorce, then try and bankrupt me with Alimony. But she did all that, and more.

-Kids:
This is really a separate discussion, and brings into light a whole new set of risks and considerations. IMO it is a distinct issue from marriage itself, and should be approached as such. I think the majority of the bad divorce stories we read here involve children.

WOULD I get married again? Perhaps, but only with some financial protection, preferably an iron-clad pre-nup (if there is such a thing.) Once bitten, twice shy...
 

Mauser96

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tenacity again.
 

YawataNoKami

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Never forget brother - 100% of divorces are a direct result of marriage!
 

Tenacity

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Colossus,

Gaming women through being a Don Juan or a Player, and Marrying women are two totally different things. One is based on playing with a woman's emotions to stimulate sexual infatuation. The other is based on entering into a very BAD business contract with an unstable and unpredictable business partner, as well as an unstable and unpredictable relationship outcome.

Here's my hypothesis, "Nobody (man or woman) should get married today in the United States, due in part to both the high chances of an inefficient spousal relationship if you remain married, as well as the high chances of financial setbacks if a divorce should occur."

There's no hardcare FACTS in predicting the future, but there's three ways the marriage can end:

- Option 1 (Happily Ever After Ending): This is where the marriage remains stable leading to the proposed "happily ever after ending." You have the kids, the dog, the house, you build wealth together, you pass it onto the next generation in the form of the Family Trust, and it ends when one of the spouses passes away leaving the surviving spouse as a widow or widower. You might go through some issues/problems but they will be minor and totally managable.

- Option 2 (Living In Hell Ending): This is where the marriage remains in tact but with spousal relationship inefficiency, which means in some way or another, the marriage is not a blissful experience for the parties (or one of the parties) but more like a living hell. This will more than likely involve massive financial problems, personal problems from one of the spouses such as addictions or other handicaps, cheating, backbiting, etc., etc. They tolerate it until the end when one of the spouses passes away leaving the surviving spouse as a widow or widower.

- Option 3 (The Marriage Dissolves): This is where the marriage dissolves in Divorce Court before one of the spouses passes away, with one of the spouses initiating the Divorce proceedings for (insert reason here).

Of course, one spouse could KILL the other one, but for the sake of this discussion I'll just include the three options above. My hypothesis is based on the research conducted, that the CHANCES of Option 1 are no more than 20% from a holistic point of view.
 

Tenacity

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Let's start with the divorce stats that explain Option 3:

http://www.divorcestatistics.org/

http://www.mckinleyirvin.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/October/32-Shocking-Divorce-Statistics.aspx

Both resources come from late 2012 but the numbers are still relevant today in 2014/2015. From the links we have:

- 41 percent of first marriages end in divorce.
- 60 percent of second marriages end in divorce.
- 73 percent of third marriages end in divorce.

Taking all marriages into the pile and doing an average, 58% of all marriages (first, second or third) end in Divorce Court and DO NOT go onto Option 1 or Option 2. Rounding up the number, let's say that based on our research, 60% of all marriages will end at Option 3.

When we look at Option 2, there's no hard research data on this because unlike divorce numbers, it's difficult to track in numeral form the satisfaction of a spouse's current marriage arrangement. For this, all we can do is look at the various conversations amongst men who were married, and who are currently married, that from time to time will reveal how miserable they are/were and then just draw conclusions based on common sense. Common sense would say, it would be reasonable to estimate that at least half of all marriages that do not end up in Option 3, are not "happily ever after" situations behind closed doors but rather consistent bickering, fighting, nagging, bytching, complaining, along with issues on top of issues which mainly involve finances. So this represents 20% of the total number of marriages.

That leaves the final 20% of the total marriages in the Option 1 category. I think this is reasonable to conclude.

Questions: Would you invest in a business with only a 20% chance of a return on investment? The reason you invest in marriage is for the "Happily Ever After" ROI, but if the marriage results in ANYTHING other than that, couldn't that be considered a bad business deal? If from researching the area that you want to "invest in," if you are seeing other investors racking up losses LEFT AND RIGHT, would it be prudent to invest there or find a more suitable investment?

I work in Commercial Lending, it would be like our Underwriters reviewing the portfolio of client industries in particular locations of the country that all defaulted on our loans, and instead of pulling back all investments in those particular industries in that particular area of the country....the Underwriter instead decides to RAMP up the investment in more industries in that particular area of the country. Is that a prudent investment strategy?

Surely, everybody isn't losing with marriage. A rough estimate of 20% of all marriages are Happily Ever After, but why risk an 80% chance of loss when there are more prudent investment structures out there with a LOT less risk and a higher chance of return? In this case of relationships, you will have a higher chance of return doing no cohabitation (you have your place, she has hers) and you both come together to enjoy sex, dates and the companionship of each other without any of the stresses of tying together assets, finances, bank accounts, careers, or real estate. Isn't that a more prudent strategy? If you want to create children, you both draft up a joint custody agreement outside of the Court System or if you can't get along, you go to the Court System to get it drafted for you.

Nevertheless, you can gain the blissful benefits of a "loving relationship" but opt out of the dealing with the drawbacks of said relationship going downhill.....if it goes bad, you can just leave.
 

LiveFreeX

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You gotta remember OP, the woman you left turned into the slag she did without YOU. I've left a trail of slag in my wake also, you have to remember that when they were with YOU they were better people. I guess I'm an egotistical prick but in 99% of cases its true. :D

I used to write about a rich girl I was dating in Mexico awhile back. Anyway said girl up and left me for some one-nighter... she's still single going on 5 years later and posting crap to me about how I should reconsider going out with her (apparently we were meant to be)lolz. The ex before her writes the exact same stuff to me once a year. When they were with me, they were happy and fun to be around... now? Slag. Once a woman has broken her hymen, she's no longer suitable for marriage, that's my 2 cents though, my wife was a virgin when I met her and very keen to get married.

It's in a man's best interest to marry a foreigner. For one, if there are problems, you can easily get up and leave. If you know how to make your way around the world then its only a matter of hopping a flight to end all your troubles. It's important to be location independent in this regard.

Secondly, I'm with Collosus on this, I've managed to bank a CONSIDERABLE amount of money since meeting my wife. When you feel responsible for another's well being, it motivates you to do better with your life. My marriage has been very good overall and my sexual needs are met pretty well 24/7, I can wake her up in the middle of the night for sex and if she is completely out of it she'll say "just go ahead and do what you want". She's a good person and I couldn't ask for better. A few times when I've been on my deathbed, she's been right there with me, infact the reason I'm still here is her, without her I'd be lying in a Guangzhou refuse pile at the back of a shady hospital. My wife has been through hell and back for me but then again she's a 3rd worlder and born into poverty so being a decent person comes second nature. She always puts my own needs before her own, this is a person I want to bring children into the world with. In her culture, marriage means that you are successful and accomplished. An unmarried woman after 25 is akin to a worthless piece of sh1t and all of the 800 million other women in the country are aware of it.

The problem with most guys on this forum is they are using PUA to meet 1st world princesses. The woman that bangs you on the first night or leaves her bf for you, or you meet at some local dive isn't the type of woman you want to bring home to mom. The other problem is so many men are brainwashed into believing they have to drop money on a marriage... what BS that is. I told my wife we could get married but there would be no rings, no reception, no party, nothing except a little note in a government book. My friend did this with his wife before I got married and another friend right after... guess what? We are all still happily married. My wife lives on WHITE RICE, making her very cheap to maintain and when I send her out with 10 bucks to shop for new clothes, she'll return with 5. If you are at all money conscious, pick a Chinese woman for the win. But if you are expecting to keep a girlfriend on the side or keep Picking up after you get bored, you can expect maximum retribution to the likes of which no Western woman could even fathom. Chinese women are fiercely loyal and when you go back on your word you will see the hidden Dragon up close. The other great thing about Chinese girls is that they will follow your lead, whatever you do, they will do. If you are a good person, you can expect the same in return.

I think all the PUA's here are wasting their talents on garbage quality women when their are plenty of great women abroad.. I've maintained this for years and now I'm living proof of my own theories. There are trade offs no matter which path you choose. China is currently experiencing an enormous growth spurt even at just 5% per year. America is in decline. China/Chinese still have a lot of traditional and family values in place and the man is still the head of the house hold. China launched a spacecraft into orbit around the moon recently, America launched a campaign to fckh8 on prop 8. Which country's women do you think have a healthier attitude toward men and marriage? IMO the only way for Americans to get out of the slump their in is to marry Chinese women and breed feminism out of existence.

*Mauser96: You must be Canadian, I don't think they have Kraft Dinner in the states? I get together at my friend's house once every six months for some KD he brings back from home.
 
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Colossus

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Good points made by all.

Tenacity, I'll address your last two posts specifically.

First, your stats are about as accurate as they can be at present time since they come from the latest Census Bureau surveys. However, lumping together first, second, and third marriages is disingenuous, since most of us having this debate have never been married, and the guys here who have been married have no desire to to it again.

So your 60% divorce rate is misleading, and falsely bolsters your argument. Additionally, your figure of only half of intact marriages being "happy" is speculative, but I'll give you that for the sake of argument. Let's redact the 60% back to the 41% figure for first marriages, which would be the case for most of us here. So out of ~60% of first marriages which do "succeed", let's say that half are happy marriages, or 30%. So, by your reasoning and CDC statistics, if we choose to marry we statistically have a 30% chance of the ideal marital outcome---intact and happy.

Here's where the logical fallacies start to take over, which is really my main issue with the standard no-marriage argument:

Guys cite the likelihood of failure, the state of modern women, unpredictable personality changes, and the potentially disastrous consequences of divorce as reasons not to marry, which are all legit.

BUT----what is their (your) solution??? Just don't marry, and enjoy a life a bountiful young nymphs that you can dump on a whim if things go south. You can date 25 year olds your whole life, never cohabitate, never share property, and never have kids if you don't want them. No risk!

This is FANTASY, dudes. And it actually doesn't mitigate as much as you think it does. Here's why:

-Living the swinging bachelor life is not sustainable. I implore you try it for 10 years. And don't use George Clooney (now married) or some other 1%er as an example of it's success. Sure, if you stay in shape and keep a reasonably high SMV into middle age, you can feasibly date young sexy women for a long time. But this presents a few problems. 1) you actually have to find one you LIKE enough to keep around. 2) If you do, not many women are going to stick around as a permanent girlfriend. Eventually the gauntlet will be thrown down, and you'll either have to acquiesce to a more solid commitment, or just dump her. Rinse and repeat.....until you are at the age where this sh!t gets old and you DO want some stability beyond serial 2-4 year LTRs.

-If you DO find a girl you really like (you will), you are going to want to build more a life together than just going over to each other's houses 3 nights a week to have dinner and bang. It's human nature. You'll find it easier to live together. You'll want to get a dog, or a condo, or a house.....and maybe you'll even have kids, intentionally or not. NOW you are on the hook, possibly as much as you would be if you were married.

-So say it doesn't work out with your dream permanent gf. Shared property?? Unless you had the foresight to sign some sort of quit claim deed, that will be a mess. A dog? Not a huge issue, but it could be freaking heart-wrenching for one or both of you when you have to decide who gets the dog. And kids?? You may as well be married. The courts will see it as if you were. Also consider common law marriage statutes if you live together.

-Simply not marrying does not, in any way, mitigate the possibility of one or both parties CHANGING in some dramatic way later in life. Mauser is correct, people change. There is only so much groundwork we can lay and so much screening we can do. The no-marry solution is to just simply leave when it gets bad, which may work if you have a true bf-gf arrangement with minimal shared anything. That's a great ideal on paper, it just isn't sustainable or realistic for most of us.



My whole point here is, there are a lot of good and compelling reasons not to marry, and I wouldn't fault anyone for not doing it. BUT---marriage itself isn't intrinsically bad, and can offer benefits to a man not available with a permanent gf. Simply being in an LTR presents many of the same risks as a marriage after a certain period of time. We have a strong sample bias here and we tend to see only the worst cases of failed marriages, not happy dudes who remain the HoH and love their wives. We also tend to romanticize the bachelor lifestyle.

I would never push marriage on anyone, I just think we see the big picture from a skewed perspective here. When you factor in the eventualities of almost any LTR, you run very similar risks as you do in a marriage (with a solid pre-nup). If you really want to eliminate almost ALL risk from your future relationships, then just never let one get past the casual stage. Which is, of course, ridiculous.
 

MOTU

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This is great discussion and I think I have had "aha" moments three or four times now.
Nin said:
We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are.
Clearly the case for me. I have been in two marriages that ended painfully both emotionally and financially, where when they started, I would have bet my life (indeed I did bet my livelihood) that they would last forever.
Tenacity said:
73 percent of third marriages end in divorce.
This made my heart jump into my throat. That's me. Wake up MOTU, the deck is stacked against you. So as Colossus asks, what to do?
Colossus said:
If you DO find a girl you really like (you will), you are going to want to build more a life together than just going over to each other's houses 3 nights a week to have dinner and bang.
There's me again! But it's one or two nights a week most weeks. Now, I have only been dating this woman for 5 months and there are other issues at play (she has young kids), so I am not anywhere near pondering marriage or even cohabitation, but it is a bit disconcerting to be on a path that you have no idea not just where it will end, but even where it could end.
Mauser96 said:
Here is the problem. People change. Their wants, needs, desires change, as well as thier GREED. The woman you marry is NO WHERE EVEN CLOSE to the women that you divorce.
My experience exactly. Admittedly, my screening skills weren't good the first two times. I was young and dumb the first time around and married my "first love". The second time I was on the rebound AND I needed to have someone in the house with me to help run the household and so I could fight for custody of my kids (I travel for work).
Danger said:
I don't care about societal benefits. The driving factor for any man should be regarding the benefits for him.
I need to internalize this. But I do like the stability and predictability of an LTR, until I remember
Tenacity said:
Most of the time if you do all of your filtering upfront, you can avoid bad partners. You can't do this with a wife because there's NO tangibles, it's all emotional. The woman's emotions can change based on factors and variables that have nothing at all to do with you.
and
Zekko said:
And you can screen as carefully as you like, but a simple fact of life is that people change. And women initiate and file for divorce in the vast majority of cases.
I am not sure my post has a point, but this thread sure has gotten me thinking about sh!t I need to be thinking about. This is why I come to this site.

Also, I have repped everyone (that I could) who has contributed to this discussion without letting it descend into an argument.
 

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Tenacity

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Colossus,

I think it's fair to average out first, second and third marriages as the discussion is centering around the institution of marriage as a "whole," not just for individuals that are entering a marriage contract for the first time. For those on their 2nd or 3rd marriages, they apparently had a prior bad marriage and tried the system again with another person they believed to be "the one," only for the system to fail them once again.

The 50% of all remaining marriages that don't divorce being in the "living hell" situation, is indeed total speculation as there's no hard data to support the claim, but we can use common sense in this case to apply to the study to make a reasonable deduction.

Guys cite the likelihood of failure, the state of modern women, unpredictable personality changes, and the potentially disastrous consequences of divorce as reasons not to marry, which are all legit.
Not just "legit concerns" but they are total deal breakers. Read over your quote once again, why would any sane person opt IN to something like that if they don't have to?


BUT----what is their (your) solution??? Just don't marry, and enjoy a life a bountiful young nymphs that you can dump on a whim if things go south. You can date 25 year olds your whole life, never cohabitate, never share property, and never have kids if you don't want them. No risk!
YES! That's the solution. The solution is to opt out of the Family Court System altogether, that means no Marriage, no Cohabitation, and no Children Creation. The system is a scam setup by Divorce Attorneys and Judges to pad their pockets. They steal money out of your children's college trust fund to GIVE to the trust fund of their children. The Family Court market is one of the most lucrative markets in the country because people still sign up for this crap based on the religious and societal programming.

If men truly WENT THEIR OWN WAY, the market would collapse for these Divorce Attorneys and Judges, so as to keep their damn "jobs" they would make serious reforms to the system. Why make reforms to a system that's extremely profitable for them right now, when the DEMAND is still so high?

This is similar to the student loan bubble and the high college tuition situation, if idiotic college students are STILL lining up in droves to pay $25,000 a year for a liberal arts degree, why in the hell should the college reform the system when the DEMAND is still high? If the students collectively made a stand that they would NOT pay that crap for a college degree and opted to a cheaper school, there would be serious reforms in the college tuition market in no time.


-Living the swinging bachelor life is not sustainable. I implore you try it for 10 years. And don't use George Clooney (now married) or some other 1%er as an example of it's success. Sure, if you stay in shape and keep a reasonably high SMV into middle age, you can feasibly date young sexy women for a long time. But this presents a few problems. 1) you actually have to find one you LIKE enough to keep around. 2) If you do, not many women are going to stick around as a permanent girlfriend. Eventually the gauntlet will be thrown down, and you'll either have to acquiesce to a more solid commitment, or just dump her. Rinse and repeat.....until you are at the age where this sh!t gets old and you DO want some stability beyond serial 2-4 year LTRs.

Not totally. You see, my theory is that you are going to END UP back in the "bachelor life" anyway AFTER you go through a marriage and eventually end up in a divorce (60% chance). You will end up coming right BACK to the situation of spinning plates for the rest of your life and doing a short term relationship here-there. What I'm trying to do is save you the financial losses on the way and avoid doing the marriage contract altogether. You could take the losses that you would have had with the marriage and invest them in a business venture. You could become financially free MUCH faster in life.

High SMV is subjective, but if you are a man following MGTOW you should be getting wiser and richer as you age. Having money allows you to attract women, no matter how old you are. Are you saying a man with low SMV should marry as a way to desperately cling to some pvssy because his value is through the floor and it's hard for him to acquire new pvssy?

In terms of the women you would meet not deciding to "stick around" because you won't marry them, the only women that are going to do that are the ones manipulating you through societal and religious shaming tactics, the SAME tactics that have men signing up for this CRAP in the first place.
 

Tenacity

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-If you DO find a girl you really like (you will), you are going to want to build more a life together than just going over to each other's houses 3 nights a week to have dinner and bang. It's human nature. You'll find it easier to live together. You'll want to get a dog, or a condo, or a house.....and maybe you'll even have kids, intentionally or not. NOW you are on the hook, possibly as much as you would be if you were married.
Okay, I don't understand. Is marriage and/or cohabitation the only type of relationship structure that we can have to fulfill and live out our "loving" relationship? I don't think that's the case.

Not everybody wants to move in together (I need space), get a dog (I hate dogs), or buy a house/condo (me personally I have opted out of buying a house/condo). I don't see how we MUST live together and buy real estate to fulfill a loving relationship? So when I meet her and she's already bought her house, she's supposed to put it on the market, take a loss, just to move in with me?


-Simply not marrying does not, in any way, mitigate the possibility of one or both parties CHANGING in some dramatic way later in life.
The risks we are looking to mitigate are financial risks, not the risk of her "breaking our little hearts" through dumping us.

Understand something here, the problem isn't that a relationship went bad or we fell out of love, the problem is having worked for 25 years and now you are 55 and your "Soul Mate," your "The One," and your "Person That God Sent To You Specifically," is taking you through Divorce Court in a financially devastating process. The costs for Attorneys, Accountants, Alimony, Asset Splits, etc. are devastating. Your mental health goes out of whack which hurts your performance at work, her allegations might also cause you to LOSE your position at work. I mean the situation is so devastating that at the age of 55 you might have to START OVER from scratch. You would have worked all your life and now have it all TAKEN away from you. You would be on the burge of suicide. Why do you think Robin Williams committed suicide? Ex-wives.

That's the risk we are trying to avoid.

It's a fallacy at best based on societal and religious programming, that you cannot have a "fulfilling" relationship with a woman outside of a marriage contract. It's as if once you sign a marriage contract the woman is supposed to MORPH into this ultimate female goddess? And the only way you can experience her awesome powers is to rub the "marriage lamp"? There are no benefits that a woman provides for a man inside of marriage, that he doesn't receive OUTSIDE of the marriage contract.
 

LiveFreeX

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that means no Marriage, no Cohabitation, and no Children Creation.
This is the worst attitude and idea I've seen on this forum and others like it.

If that was some wonderful solution then you and I wouldn't even exist. It goes against every law of nature and sounds more like the hate and stupidity that feminists spew (All sex is rape). Life on Earth is based on growing and reproducing, we can all agree that making new life is a fundamental NEED in every living thing on Earth. The only reason PUA even exists is to satisfy that simple NEED. The reason you want to FOCK any woman is based soley on this.

As far as I'm concerned if you voluntarily opt out of children and encourage others to do the same, you are an abomination and an enemy of man.

This attitude is spreading like a virus over America. When women spew it, we call it feminism, when men regurgitate it we call it 'MGTOW'. There can be no future if people opt out of family creation. Countries weren't built by individual 'alpha-bs' men wandering around and fcking random hoes. It was built by 'what some people like to refer to as BETA' men who had solid families, traditional values and dedicated wives. The further you go into 'red pill' thinking the more the seams of society come undone. The solution is not to opt out of marriage at all, the solution is to choose better quality women from countries that still maintain a healthy set of family values and ride the high horse.

Notice that 'The enemy of man' is not welcomed or accepted in Russia or China despite the best efforts of the West to spread it. Both expose heavy christian/puritanical values (even if China wants you to believe otherwise). Also notice that the majority of those women don't subscribe to LGBT/Feminism or hard liberal agendas. We are simply living amongst the enemy of man and guys that have been through several marriages continue to select females damaged by this sickness.

If love/procreation stopped existing every society and country on Earth would fly apart at the speed of light and we'd have no reason to continue on living. If there are no children, there is no future. Think about this before you respond.

If man really is God's creation and there is such thing as a Devil, it is a militant lesbian with an agenda to end all life on Earth out of spite. Don't follow this person.

Anyone interested in meeting or hooking up with foreign women for marriage/children can PM me.
 

Tenacity

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LiveFree,

Fair enough, but don't blame me and men like me....blame the Family Court, Divorce Attorneys, Divorce Judges and Feminism. They destroyed the family, not us.
 

zekko

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LiveFreeX said:
As far as I'm concerned if you voluntarily opt out of children you are abomination and an enemy of man.
Wow, those are pretty harsh words.

Thing is, having children today is very risky for a man. In a whole lot of cases, the woman ends up divorcing him early on, taking the kids, and then garnishing his wages until they graduate. He may have no say in this whatsoever. Sounds like a bad risk to me, but to opt out of it makes you an abomination and an enemy of man?

Tenacity said:
Fair enough, but don't blame me and men like me....blame the Family Court, Divorce Attorneys, Divorce Judges and Feminism. They destroyed the family, not us
Well said.
 
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