A potential flaw I see in Pook's reasoning [merged]

[Pook]

Pook is astonished of the sheer volume of words in this thread...

Now I remember why I rarely post.

Page, I don't believe you understand Speed Seduction. On the outside it seems like a bag tricks and the tire hitting the road that you're looking for. Those who have practiced Speed Seduction for any good length of time (myself included) know that it has its own distinct mindset.

In Speed Seduction, you possess no identity. The focus is not on making your fantasy come true, it is making the woman's fantasy come true. All the patterns, rapport, weasel phrases and such are to lead her imagination into having sex. Speed Seduction is not seducing her physically, it is seducing her mentally.

If she likes bad boys, you become a bad boy.

If she likes nice guys, you become a nice guy.

If she likes loud guys, you become a loud guy.

If she likes funny guys, you become a funny guy.

Basically, if she likes this type of guy, you become that type of guy. Whatever values or interests you have, leave them at the door. The focus is not on you, it is entirely on the chick. The only focus on you is where you messed up and how you 'broke her fantasy' or 'connection'.

There is also confusion on what IS and what ISN'T Speed Seduction. Kino is NOT speed seduction. Kino is kino. Guys were touching girls long before any 'seduction philosophies' came about (obviously). Noticing body language is not Speed Seduction. I wouldn't even put neg hitting in the Speed Seduction category (we do our best neg hitting automatically to chicks we don't like).

Speed Seduction differs in that you project yourself as her fantasy. Having a conversation with a girl is not speed seduction. Paraphrasing her content back to her is. You get the picture.

When a speed seducer gets married, I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the woman's name. He might as well since he has no identity himself.

As for myself, I place the entire focus on me. If I just want the girl for sex, I better be honest to myself about it (chicks hate it when guys can't even be honest with themselves!). If I want the girl for a relationship, then I go for the relationship.

The problems with girls and even the world are not in the world, they are inside me (I consider the newspaper to be my journal). You solve the things within yourself and the world changes around you.

There are many rationalizations we have made with failures with chicks: the environment, the people around, even the chick herself. But there is only one problem: YOU. Out of a string of crashes and burns (or even worse, a series of imaginative scenarios because you are too scared to take action), YOU are the only common factor.

"Pook! Quit saying something that is so common!"

But it wasn't common at all. With the exception of Survivor, from this thread I've been on this forum the longest. You guys might remember the last forum but what about the forum before that? Everyone listened to Big Don and several others.

Speed Seduction was debated then just as it is now. It will be talked about in the future too. So long as people believe it is the holy grail to the paradise of pvssy, it will remain so. "But it IS the paradise of pvssy!" No it's not. It was your sureness in it that broke you out of your shell, that gave you the boldness to actually go after what you've been burning for, that did it.

If guys knew what women really thought, they would be much much much more bold.

When Anti-Dump appeared, everyone flamed him. He didn't care what the chick thought because the focus was on you. He was right.

I don't give a damn about a woman's fantasy. If it matches MY fantasy, GREAT. If not, then get out of my way. Women are masters at fantasy. I'm going to live my life fulfilling my fantasies, not theirs.

If you need a script to break you out of your shell, fine. The accomplishments are you breaking down your barriers. THAT is the only path to success.

When a guy gets over his shyness to talk to girls normally with the air of fun, I cheer. "But Pook! He's not getting laid!" Hush! He made a significant improvement in his life. He will now enjoy a part of life he couldn't before.

When a guy gets comfortable asking chicks out, I cheer. "But Pook! Who the heck cares about dates? He's not getting laid!" He just opened up a whole new area of life. He is living more.

When a guy outgrows his fear and approaches THE CHICKS HE WANTS I cheer. "But Pook! He is still not getting sex!" He is breaking his barriers. He's beginning to believe...

When a guy can easily make a move on a chick where he couldn't before, I cheer. "Why do that, Pook? You should tell him to go for the goal!" You pvssy whipped boy, be quiet! He is solidly breaking down the walls that held back his OWN fantasies, his OWN dreams, his OWN potential.

When a guy gets sex, I don't cheer. "But Pook! He GOT LAID!" Ahh, but you can get laid before breaking down these barriers. Getting laid is not an accomplishment. Anyone can get laid. Even 13 yr olds can get laid. But breaking down your own barriers to live the life you want.. THAT is priceless.

If a guy says to me, "Pook! She smiled at me! She WANTS ME!" I slap him around. "Foolish youth!" I tell him. "Keep the focus on you."

Find your barriers and break them. It may take a little bit longer for sex or girlfriends depending on how determined you are to re-orient your life, but the changes will become habit and won't be dependent on any chick.

It is that simple. And you can notice guys who can get girls easily, for they don't act like desperate little dogs.

I had to get my Dad to come over to my apartment to fix something on my car (normally, I would fix it but I lacked a certain part that he had). Apparently, some of the women must be spying on me since they were eyeing me like a cat. Some girls even offered to 'help' haha. My Dad just turned to me and shook his head at all these women interupting us. haha

At a job I had, a coworker couldn't believe what was going on. "Pook... the women... they all love you!" I just shrugged my shoulders and went on doing what I was doing.

It's gotten to the point where I can't remember their names. They ALL seem to know my name, even chicks I haven't talked to before (WTF!). It gets embarressing when they talk to you and you don't know their name!

I never stopped putting the focus on myself. Eventually, you get to the Ripple Effect point where rather instead of a handful of girls here and there, it becomes waves and waves of them.

BEFORE I reached for LOVE/SEX. NOW I reach for life. That makes all the difference.

Cesare says that all I say is work-out and read Shakespeare. How he gets this, I have no idea. Why do I not post details? Because I don't know your life. I don't know what your barriers are. All that I know is what helped me, what ideas that entered my Pookish mind that altered my life. Something as cliche as "You are the prize to be won" was not cliche when it changed my life. Sure, there aren't DETAILS surrounding it like a story. I can tell you my success stories all day and the only result would be IMITATION from you. In real life, when I see some skinny pale nerd plotting a Dungeon and Dragons map, I do not tell him stories of myself. Rather, I slap him around and say, "For God's sake, embrace your sexuality! Be a guy! Don't be an androgenous!" If he gets that single idea, he will change more than from reading a thousand 'field reports'.

"But Pook! I get what I want with SS!" Well, I get what I want too. But one day you are going to grow old. I don't think you'll be sarging and having all this game come out of your mouth when you are in your 30s or 40s (the older you get, the more ridiculous it becomes). You probably plan on marriage and kids at some point in the future.

Now imagine that you are married. Where are these skills at game that you invested so many years of your precious life in now? How will it raise kids and build a family? What identity will you have with all this time you were absorbing other girls' identities?

Let me illustrate another difference. Sosuave! Your cue!

Sosuave places a chick in front of Pook.

Now, I have noticed that I could be much more funny and entertaining. If I was going pure game, I would focus on her and what to do to get her back to Pook Place. Observe!

Pook approaches the chick, starts a conversation, and instantly the chick is laughing.

Pause!

Now what do we have here? Yes, the chick is laughing. She is laughing because I just broke down another barrier. Breaking these barriers don't come at once. You can chant "Hesitation equals masturbation" all you want, you can't escape the fact that everything must be made into habit. Aristotle even says, "We are the sum of our habits." I add some humor to my habit and DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT HEREAFTER. I focus on the next barrier and move on.

Look on the other side of the bar! The SSer has a chick! Come, let us hear what he is saying:

"Look at me! Look at me! All those Nice Guy dorks are going to be so envious of me now! I am being free while they are cooped up in their own fears!"

Alas, vanity's fair! You could compare ANYONE on this forum to a Nice Guy AFC and you'd still be better. I don't compare myself to LOWER denominators, I compare myself to HIGHER ones. I look in the mirror and don't think of skinny pale guys or fat guys. I think of models, bodybuilders, etc. When I make jokes, I don't think of a guy who is so shy he can't even talk. I think of comedians. And when I write, I don't think of high schoolers. I think of Shakespeare, Virgil, etc. Why compare yourself to the lower people? In my mind, I tend to hang around people that are better than me in many things so I can get better.

No wonder I hear from the women: "Pook, you don't know how good you are!"

 

[JustDoItAlways]

Okay, I read through the whole thing several times trying to understand what you were saying.

I think you meant:

"Focus on yourself. Focus on what YOU want. Recognize and overcome your barriers, like approaching. Improve yourself in all areas, especially for the above barriers. Make these changes a HABIT. The chicks will then flock to you."

But I could be wrong.

I suggest you focus more, recognize your barrier of written communication skills and improve on that. Make these changes a habit. And the old Pook of "Be a Man" days will be back.

Either that or just state your newest philosophy in more clear terms so that the 17 year old guys on here can understand and actually use it.

I don't necessarily disagree with you (other than to make it understandable).

(And I just wanted to join the flame war before it is over. Just like many countries around the world are now thinking since the war in Iraq is almost over.)

 

[HB_Hunter]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan........missed u so much !!!

How have u been ??

I've been a lurker and rarely a writer here since 3 years . sosuave has changed my life greatly but not to the extent that i aimed for WHY?? cz i read more than Acted.

After All this Years of expereince I think that's The Key ACTION!!!

Thing is Sometimes u r stuck with ur dealings with women or ppl in general....like Don juan kenobi ....ur not gettin the results that u used to ?? what shall u do?? ......i'd say Climb Step By Step by Still Focusin on Yourself in the long Road Of Being A Man . But , U r analyzing alot of your actions from a negative View since your confidence is low . Although u don't Accept this thought that ur not the great Catch, ur sub-consciousness try to give proves and negative scripts that u aren't the catch and as an outcome of this fight . you are not focusing on enjoyin life and being happy . u become nervous , stutter try to prove that ur still the same old person like a vicious cycle that i had went thru and this ended in me coming here re-readin some of the posts . increasing my self-confidence and then goin to break my own barriers . I Wanna read your thoughts about this Pook .

And Yes By Focusing On Yourself and on being happy . Dealing with girls Is like a piece of cake since it's natural now . man when im happy.....i m really irresistible to girls though this isn't my Most Important goal but when im not i think negative and as we think we become and the outcome is not gettin the same old game .

I used to Prefer Red x-l And Krynster if u remember him But You Are The One Here as You Focus on life Not Women .


My regards,

 

[JUST ME]

Pook... what was meant by this you said?

"If guys knew what women really thought, they would be much much much more bold." Please explain!!

 

[sneaker]

Re: Pook... what was meant by this you said?

Originally posted by JUST ME
"If guys knew what women really thought, they would be much much much more bold." Please explain!!

isnt it obvious?

 

[Pook]

OK, let me put it like this:

I've always wondered how people can believe in things like conspiracies and new world orders and shadow organizations moving things like an invisible hand. I used to believe in those things but I turned 13. Yet, people will believe in some 'greater' control out there.

Then it dawned on me that these people thought that way because they didn't have a control over their own life. Since they didn't seem to have a grip on where they wanted to go, everything in life became corrupted by 'that conspiracy' being some government, corporation, or whatever.

It's not even a matter of education. I've seen professors eat up all this garbage and they should know better. They are the ranting type. They just don't seem to have a handle on their own life.

Those who think SS is the greatest thing ever aren't interested in love from a woman, they merely want control over them. The people most attracted to it are exactly that: average frustrated chumps.

I do admit SS felt like a 'salvation' at the time when I got entralled in it. I thought I knew things other guys didn't! Now I was in control! Now I could get any chick!

Misery and pain are not two but one. We know it might be painful at first to approach a chick but it is better than the misery of not doing so. There were hard questions I had to answer about my life and get a handle on. I found this painful so opted for the 'control' method. Alas, time grew faster and faster. Women began to all seem alike except for their shapes and forms. Using SS began to become a misery. After a while, it catches up with you.

This is why you will see people already happy and satisfied with their love life not finding any value in SS. SSers think that they just don't 'get' it. But when you have control over your life, you have no desire to control women (or living in the hallucination that you are controlling them).

Now if someone wants to go use SS, more power to him. I've been down that road and I know how it goes. But if you've noticed, SSers just don't seem to let us be. So when you hear "Giovanni and Pook don't know what they're missing! etc." they're forgetting that many many people have seen and done SS and walked away from it. You won't find many of these type of people on this forum because if you are on this forum, you are already looking for love life improvement. It's very common to not feel you have control so when something like SS comes up that promises control, people bite the bait without seeing the hook in it.

For example, many people want to make romance/sex/women RISK FREE. But the catch is that you've GOT to take risks. I could write a book that promised "Risk Free Dating and Attraction!" and it'd probably become a best seller. But is it really helpful? You've got embrace risk, not try to analyze it out of existence.

It's the same with SS. You can try to control women all you want but you won't be satisfied until you take control of your own life -MEANING- carving out life the way YOU want it.

Or here's another anology. Think of a politician who thinks success is all in control. He does focus groups to determine what phrases he should use. He puts out polls to find out what beliefs he should have. He speaks to the audience and believes whatever they believe.

Now, the politician will be successful SOMEWHAT. He may be elected here and there. People (and usually those who have no sense of control over their own life) will be strongly attracted to these types of politicians.

But every now and then appears a rare type of politician. He talks with passion and doesn't play to the audience yet resonates with them. He may be down in the polls at one point but the polls will swing around. It is the role of the leader. And what do leaders do? They lead. Even if people disagree with this guy, he has their respect. For this politician has the markings of a man and history always spotlights these men.

It is the same with women. I can tell them what they want to hear. I will get results out of it. Out of all of them? No. Many of them? Sure. Have I had cases where my character was flawed and required correction? Absolutely. But looking back, I prefer that than carrying the error with me. I shudder to think what would have happened if I just kept masking myself to myself.

Control your life and this forum will seem absurd to you.

BTW, hi HB_Hunter!

Just Me: You'll be amazed at what you can get away with with women. Take the worst case scenario. Say you go so fast and you start groping her. She'll just call you a pig, slap you and walk away. But she will think that you are a guy, a guy that needs some learning, but it is common at this age. If an old man does it, she'll rightfully call the cops.

From what I read here and see in real life, many of you guys are so scared. It is like you are gun shy. I think a lot of it has to do what ohter people think (like the people at work or at class). Go to another town and be bold for once. No one will see you again. But you'll get out of your shell and that makes all the difference.

 

[copeland]

Giovanni it’s time to set you straight. That is if you are - oh that’s right, you only * act * gay to try to get women. No we won’t forget.

“Do you have a problem with understanding words (Sexpdx)? I have NO USE for a Juggler workshop, or a Gunwitch workshop, or a speed seduction workshop, or a SexPDX workshop. I'm not the one who is unhappy with my "skill set" or my "game". Such a thing does not interest me in the least. When will you get it through your 5-inch-thick concrete skull that I choose NOT to devote my entire existance to the single-minded pursuit of women?” -Giovanni

How did you reach the conclusion that if one takes a ‘workshop’ that they devote their existence to pursuing women? If someone takes a course to prepare for a standardized test let’s say the LSAT, are they devoting their life to acing that test? No. That throws out your argument right on the spot. PDX suggested something that may benefit you, because he (and everybody else) know that your “skill set” could use some work. If you don’t want to be criticized about your ‘skills’ then don’t come here. You know what the central theme of this site is so don’t bytch about it. You can talk politics all you want in other threads.

“What, have sex with a slut? Most guys COULD, but many WOULDN'T.” -Giovanni

Nope. Most guys can’t. The majority of women who are sluts actually look good. That’s mainly the reason why they * are * sluts. They get hit on by lots of guys with tight game and are therefore persuaded into having sex more quickly. The average Joe with little game doesn’t have a chance with good looking ‘sluts’. We can all see that you’ve never had sex with a good looking ‘slut’ (or probably any good looking girl ) before because you have a weak “skill set”. Case closed.

“I love statements like this. "Don't knock it till you've tried it." Here's a method for you, Nick. It's called the Mudslide Method. Basically, it involves you getting gang-raped in the ass by three guys who are each over 300 pounds. After that, go out and approach women. Guaranteed, the first woman you approach will have sex with you. Of course, because I hate "methods", I've never tried it, but I've heard that it works. I think you should really try this. Remember, you need to DO IT before you can comment on this methods effectiveness.” - Giovanni

There you go with your exaggerated * irrelevant * comparisons. That’s simply ridiculous and has nothing to do with getting women. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “You can’t compare apples and oranges”. You know what, I don’t even know why I’m arguing with you, you’re just down right ignorant.

 

[De La Soul]

Originally posted by Pook
In Speed Seduction, you possess no identity. The focus is not on making your fantasy come true, it is making the woman's fantasy come true. All the patterns, rapport, weasel phrases and such are to lead her imagination into having sex. Speed Seduction is not seducing her physically, it is seducing her mentally.

If she likes bad boys, you become a bad boy.

If she likes nice guys, you become a nice guy.

If she likes loud guys, you become a loud guy.

If she likes funny guys, you become a funny guy.

Basically, if she likes this type of guy, you become that type of guy. Whatever values or interests you have, leave them at the door. The focus is not on you, it is entirely on the chick. The only focus on you is where you messed up and how you 'broke her fantasy' or 'connection'.

Pook,

That's all I've read of your first reply in this thread, and I hate to say but that's BS. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh. But I'd advise you to check out the Juggler Method. It's all about BEING YOURSELF. Not in the sense of being eternally content with everything about you, but being honest with yourself, and with everyone you talk to. You express your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions (I can see half the board cringing right now!), whatever's on your mind.

And it works.

Admittedly, I'm not completely settled with it yet. It's a whole life change - not just a change you go through when you're trying to pick up girls. You become more comfortable with yourself, you don't feel like you've got anything to hide, everyone seems to open up to you (both women and men), you don't become an "emotional tampon" but more just a guy who's completely cool with himeself, who knows how to chat and tell a story.

I love it. There's nothing fake about it. In some ways, your model of the ideal man is more fake than the Juggler Method. Because, while the ideal man doesn't discuss his emotions, is a man completely of actions, a man who can discuss what's on his mind and still be attractive to people - A MAN WHO HIDES NOTHING - is far less fake, or, as you might put it, is a man with a stronger sense of identity.

So I'd say, sure, a lot of Speed Seduction methods are about constantly morphing, constantly changing to suit the woman. But not all. Some are much more honest and real than anything else.

OK, I'll read the rest of your post now.

- De La Soul

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by copeland
If someone takes a course to prepare for a standardized test let’s say the LSAT, are they devoting their life to acing that test?

No, and the two statements were separate. However, would someone who wants to be a lawyer take a workshop to prepare for becoming a certified mechanic? Probably not, because it's irrelevant to them.

PDX suggested something that may benefit you, because he (and everybody else) know that your “skill set” could use some work.

I'm flattered that you and PDX care so much about my skill set, but again, I'm happy with my skills and where they've gotten me. It's like I'm at the top of a mountain and you're shouting up at me from the base of the mountain because you want to show me how to climb mountains.

If you don’t want to be criticized about your ‘skills’ then don’t come here. You know what the central theme of this site is so don’t bytch about it. You can talk politics all you want in other threads.

No, you can criticize my skills all you want, if that makes you feel better. But in the end, I'm where I want to be. Are you?

The average Joe with little game doesn’t have a chance with good looking ‘sluts’. We can all see that you’ve never had sex with a good looking ‘slut’ (or probably any good looking girl ) before because you have a weak “skill set”. Case closed.

Maybe the problem's with you, then. I've had plenty of opportunities to have sex with good looking sluts. I guess the difference is that I don't have sex with any girl who's willing.

 

[Viroid]

Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova

I've had plenty of opportunities to have sex with good looking sluts. I guess the difference is that I don't have sex with any girl who's willing.

Wait a minute, are you saying that youre a man with values and morals? A man that can control his desires around women?

Can anyone tell me why this might be attractive to women? It sounds like its THE "skill set" to have, no?

 

[diplomatic_lies]

In the time you guys took to argue over this issue,


I've written 5 university essays, learnt the basics of the stockmarket and technical analysis, learnt how to put a computer together, rebuilt my computer with new upgrades, made 3 new friends in uni, made $150 from ebay sales, joined 7 college clubs, applied for interstate debating comp, attended 4 school debating practices, 2 competitions, revised 70 hours of university study, and eaten 33 meals and 66 snacks.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Christ. 5 pages, just for a debate on someone's technique which doesnt affect anyone on this board other than person concerned?

And I thought the Iraqi threads were huge.

 

[Cesare Cardinali]

Hey Pook

Originally posted by Pook

Cesare says that all I say is work-out and read Shakespeare. How he gets this, I have no idea.

Don't forget the "eat lots of pork" part....

Seriously Pook man, this thread is one big joke.

My only gripe with your advice was in my FR where you jumped in to paint yourself as some holy guru. Especially since the FR started with "maybe Pook was right about this whole Apollo path stuff".

No need to post specific details if you don't want to; just don't jump on people's backs and act all hollier than now if they do. Also, just because someone talks about "seduction" it does not necessarily mean that they are all wrapped up in SS and patterns; you're jumping to false conclusions here.

It just means that they are into learning new and specific ways of interacting with women. There is a distinction here which you seem to miss given that you keep using SS in your anti seduction stance. It would be like me saying that you're all wrapped up in Oprah and Dr.Phil because of your positive stance on personal development.

However, "personal development" goes way beyond Oprah and Dr.Phil and it would be incorrect to assume that you, Pook, are a closet Oprah fan simply because you're into personal development.

Similarly, it is incorrect to assume that everyone who talks about seduction is all wrapped up in SS. Some of us have tried it (I have not) and realized that it does work and others have moved on to more effective or different methods (for example Juggler method, Mystery Method, or Gio Casanova's get f*cked up the ass by a 300lb dude Method )

Cheers,


Cesare Cardinali

 

[Unbridled_1]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies:

In the time you guys took to argue over this issue,

I've written 5 university essays, learnt the basics of the stockmarket and technical analysis, learnt how to put a computer together, rebuilt my computer with new upgrades, made 3 new friends in uni, made $150 from ebay sales, joined 7 college clubs, applied for interstate debating comp, attended 4 school debating practices, 2 competitions, revised 70 hours of university study, and eaten 33 meals and 66 snacks.

Notice that not once during that time did you go out on a date, get laid, or even approach a woman. You just proved a point that several posters were making. Maybe you're getting too old for these "diplomacy games" and should start giving more attention to women.

 

[SexPDX]

Re: Hey Pook

Originally posted by Cesare Cardinali
There is a distinction here which you seem to miss given that you keep using SS in your anti seduction stance.

I was going to address this too. I think it's a matter of semantics. Pook uses "Speed Seduction" to describe what he is calling a "mindset". He isn't refering to the actual technique that we call SS. He should use different terminology to avoid this confusion.

Originally posted by Cesare Cardinali
It would be like me saying that you're all wrapped up in Oprah and Dr.Phil because of your positive stance on personal development.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Originally posted by Pook
In Speed Seduction, you possess no identity. The focus is not on making your fantasy come true, it is making the woman's fantasy come true. All the patterns, rapport, weasel phrases and such are to lead her imagination into having sex. Speed Seduction is not seducing her physically, it is seducing her mentally.

If she likes bad boys, you become a bad boy.

If she likes nice guys, you become a nice guy.

If she likes loud guys, you become a loud guy.

If she likes funny guys, you become a funny guy.

Basically, if she likes this type of guy, you become that type of guy. Whatever values or interests you have, leave them at the door. The focus is not on you, it is entirely on the chick.

This may have been how YOU applied SS when you did it but it's not true of all SSers. Ross Jeffries (to his credit) always has put a lot of emphasis on making sure the woman is someone you WANT to seduce. Eliciting values is not only about mirroring them, it's also about making sure you like her based on what her values are. However, in old ASF days one of the most popular SS styles was that used by MrSex4uNYC whose MO it was to do what you are talking about and "become the type of guy she likes". xblitz44x, when he was a SSer (which BTW he no longer is), used a similar style to that of MrSex4uNYC. But this is not the only application of SS as you mistakenly represent it to be.

In either case, I am no longer an SSer of ANY kind. The approach I use now is different and closer to Juggler's style (though not exactly). De La Soul gets it, at least conceptually, but Pook doesn't seem to.

My thought of seduction now are not about trying to be her ideal sex partner by respresenting myself as what I elicit that she wants. Her ideal sex partner is one who is HUMAN and is uninhibited to demonstrate that which makes him human. I already AM her ideal sex partner. I don't have to TRY to be. I being more sharing, more expressive, more open, more genuine, THAT is the direction I am going. As De La Soul said, I am being myself. I know that "be yourself" is some kind of abominable heresy around here but most guys don't understand it correctly when I say it. They think "be yourself" means "do what you have already been doing your whole life that doesn't work". The truth is most people have NEVER been themselves. Most people are not comfortable with themselves. And with women, most AFC's are doing all kinds of things that is not being themselves AT ALL.

Pook, focusing on yourself and not on women is not BAD advice at all. However, I do get that you worked on your game/skills intensely at some period of your life and were a SSer (although I am not sure which kind since your ideas of what is or is not SS kind of confuse me). After you have spent some time working on your skills you CAN just drop it and focus on other things (as you might argue *I* should at this point, LOL) and your game will imrpove or at least hold it's own. Vassago, who used to post here, has been in the ASF game a long time and used to be just as into this as me and when he left his game improved. However, the average guy who comes in here, doesn't work on his game, and after reading one of your posts leaves and decides to "focus on himself" has NOT PUT IN THE WORK. There are skills to be developed and I think you, Pook, try to trick guys into thinking otherwise by writing things that attempt to make them feel on top of the world and on some sort of grand mission.

All that being said, Pook, I am starting to think that our ideas are not in conflict to the degree that you and I might imagine. I just think there has been a lot of miscommunication and taking each other out of context on the part of both of us.

-PDX

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova
So, you're saying one of two things. That the methods of Mystery, Gunwitch, and Juggler are either just natural stuff that guys have always been doing and they're just tagging their names onto a natural phenomenon, or that guys have managed to do quite well for themselves for many millenia before these methods came along. Which one is it?

It depends what you mean by "natural phenomenon" whether or not I agree with what you are saying there. Juggler and Mystery (not sure about gunwitch) are not what we call "naturals" in the game. They are guys who were interested in social dynamics, came from a place of underdeveloped skill with women and they worked to find out what works and what doesn't for THEM. Of course when they come to community to share their ideas for others to learn from they are going to represent their findings as THEIR METHOD. The word "Juggler Method" probably never would have come out of Juggler's mouth had he not come to the community to discuss what he does. The same is probably true of Mystery. Why are you so taken aback by the use of a "named technique or method" as you put it? That things have names is important if we are going to discuss them, right? So are you against the DOING of the methods or the DISCUSSING of them? If you are against the discussing of them, that prompts me to wonder why you would ever come to a seduction newsboard at all let alone participate on one to the extent that you have.

Of course I am not suggesting what people have observed and put together as methods are some kind of thaleron radiation technology that is never-before seen in the world's ENTIRE HISTORY of interpersonal interaction or seduction. There is probably nothing that is completely new. Everything that we do has probably been done before if not exactly, at least in a way that can be compared to what we are discussing. It's just a set of techniques grouped together in a cohesive package in such a way that people can learn from.

-PDX

 

[SexPDX]

Originally posted by Pook
Go to another town and be bold for once. No one will see you again. But you'll get out of your shell and that makes all the difference.

This is excellent advice from Pook. I have done this myself in the past. When you are in that vacation state your enviornment is like some kind of holodeck.

-PDX

 

[SexPDX]

BTW, De La Soul, I don't know how often you check your e-mail these days but I sent you one you'll be interested it and since you're following this thread I thought I'd mention that to you here.

-PDX

 

[Sisko]

Can somewhone point out a link to Juggelers workshop?
Thanks.

And abouth this argument between PDX and Gio. I think that you
PDX don't understand that Gio does't want to learn more abouth seduction, and is happy the way he is.
Gio, you on the other hand, should put asside this intolerance for Nick, so to put it, but that is just my opinion.

Mybe you two just like to argue and make such a big treads.

Now abouth the AE forum, I rarely come here, because I like to avoid political discussion.
But I like this forums AE better than any other forum because I know abouth many of the frequent posters personalities a little (just like Gio pointed it out), and it somehow makes this forum more appealing than others.

 

[Pook]

De la Soul

That's all I've read of your first reply in this thread, and I hate to say but that's BS. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh. But I'd advise you to check out the Juggler Method. It's all about BEING YOURSELF. Not in the sense of being eternally content with everything about you, but being honest with yourself, and with everyone you talk to. You express your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions (I can see half the board cringing right now!), whatever's on your mind.

Touchy, aren't we! I just read the 'Juggler Method' and my thoughts are below to my reply to Trickynick.

Keep using SS and (if you are able to escape the vanity of it) you'll find it's exactly how I described it. SS reverts you to a boytoy.

It's a whole life change - not just a change you go through when you're trying to pick up girls. You become more comfortable with yourself, you don't feel like you've got anything to hide, everyone seems to open up to you (both women and men), you don't become an "emotional tampon" but more just a guy who's completely cool with himeself, who knows how to chat and tell a story.

You found that life-changing?

But if that is what you needed to break out of your shell, hey, that's great.

I love it. There's nothing fake about it. In some ways, your model of the ideal man is more fake than the Juggler Method. Because, while the ideal man doesn't discuss his emotions, is a man completely of actions, a man who can discuss what's on his mind and still be attractive to people - A MAN WHO HIDES NOTHING - is far less fake, or, as you might put it, is a man with a stronger sense of identity.

Why do people keep talking about my 'models' or my 'philosophy'? I don't have 'models' or a 'philosophy'. Nature already has a system in place. Only those who follow philosophies (i.e. Mr. Nice Guy and his flowers) are out of sync with it. Buck Nature and you end up with pain and misery.

And no, I never say anything about being an 'ideal man'. If you get a love of a woman, she will see it anyway.

Cesare

My only gripe with your advice was in my FR where you jumped in to paint yourself as some holy guru.

I always ignore the SS posts. I've read plenty of them before (years ago). But as I said there, the thread kept coming up in my searches.

When you keep mentioning the name "Pook", don't be surprised if he appears.

Especially since the FR started with "maybe Pook was right about this whole Apollo path stuff".

The Apollo thing really started to get out of context. It's basically to point out that success with women can be a Man's undoing. Pursuing girls is good to a point. I see way too many losers these days who become so enchanted with sex that it engulfs them and eclipses their life. They have huge egos but still live with their parents, have no real job, and certainly no direction in life (except towards more girls). We all shudder being stuck in AFC land all our lives. This too is also a danger and one that gets NO mentioning on this site/forum.

I always wondered why it rained women when I had a gf. Sure, there are the typical answers of "Women want what they can't have" "Guys are much more attractive in a relationship" "Social proof" "Female cattiness" etc.

When I interacted with other women, I wasn't analyzing them, wasn't philosophizing them, or scanning them for 'signals'. I was simply living (also, the GF made me more social which helped too).

We've all experienced how women seem to like us when we are on a 'mission'.

Try doing something but keep your eye on the mirror. You will look stupid. Now, if you didn't even know the mirror was there, you naturally look more graceful rather than a subtle psychotic.

I noticed a BIG CHANGE when I jettisoned all that philosphy, all that body language, all the 'methods' from my life. I became much more comfortable, more relaxed. Women became much more receptive to me.

I found that I can't HIDE my interest in a chick. If I like a chick, she will know. It is not because I intentionally 'dilate my eyes' or even kino her. Nature already has a system set up. I do it naturally. SHE analyzes it and thinks about it. She will then go to the telephone at night and talk about it with all her friends. "OMG! Like, you won't BELIEVE this! But I think Pook likes me!" But that is how women act. They check out signals and sometimes interpret things that aren't there.

Before, I was doing that. Looking back at it, I caught a bad habit that is meant for women, not men. Men shouldn't analyze all these details. That's the women's job; we have other things to do. I'm enjoying life much more without analyzing every scenario.

No need to post specific details if you don't want to; just don't jump on people's backs and act all hollier than now if they do.

Hollier than thou!? Good heavens! When I started reading things like, "but I was bringing it up for guys like Pook who may have some trouble in this area and could use some guidance...." what do you expect? That I come in and bring you a cookie?

If someone spoke of you that way, wouldn't you hop up?

It just means that they are into learning new and specific ways of interacting with women. There is a distinction here which you seem to miss given that you keep using SS in your anti seduction stance.

New and specific ways of interacting with women is not SS. Why? Because it is talked about even by AFC advice columns. Improving your interaction with women is a good thing.

You think that I have another idea of SS. Rather, you are spreading the SS umbrella to include things that actually are not SS. If one can use the same idea and still be an AFC, than it ain't SS.

It would be like me saying that you're all wrapped up in Oprah and Dr.Phil because of your positive stance on personal development.

Everyone keeps thinking that I am some 'self improvement' seminar. But they are missing the point.

The fatal flaw in SS is that it believes it can control women. I do not believe it does. (This, however, is discussion for another topic. Let's not get into it here.)

So what can you control? YOURSELF. Just by aiming my energies toward myself, my world changed in ways I couldn't dream. Personally, I dislike personal growth seminars. Some people love those seminars and books but I just don't like them.

BTW: I think Oprah will cause the downfall of Mankind.

Similarly, it is incorrect to assume that everyone who talks about seduction is all wrapped up in SS.

When I hear talk like "Soon, I'll be able to get any woman I want..." I know that the cage door has closed.