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Christianity kept me clean, too clean, f'd me up early on

taiyuu_otoko

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This is an Old Testament passage, so there was no "church" technically at the time. This is advice about avoiding extremes in your life. If it was meant to cow you, it would tell you to be extremely good and not go against the religious leaders. But that's not what it says.
While it was written a long time before the "church" it certainly had to pass editorial approval by "church" leaders.

And the dudes who "edited" all the books that went into the bible were politically connected Romans.

And you don't need to specifically say exactly what you want the reader to infer from the passage.

Dale Carnegie even described this as, "you can get anybody to do anything so long as they think it was their idea."

So, it could be argued that that passage was included to sway the readers intentions.

Also, even though no church may have existed at that time of writing, religious leaders, keepers of sacred texts, etc. have always had huge amounts of power over the population.

So I can easily see how that particular passage would easily have two simultaneous meanings, one that sounds like good common sense, and another to create a easily manageable population.

That's the kind of thing all religious leaders are good at.

However, if you are a "word of god" type guy, you'll tend to believe all sacred texts are divinely inspired and therefore infallible.

If you are a skeptic of authority, you'll see all sacred texts as means to the end of easier population control.

I've read some scholars who postulate the book of Job was re-written, had different endings added, etc., to better reflect the Jewish history particularly in the face of large setbacks.

Those who study Chinese mythology say it's hard to tell the difference between organic myths and ones that were co-opted to help the state rule more effectively.

It's hard to argue that religious/mythical texts don't have a certain element if population control built into them.
 

corrector

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Paul was the one to infuse all this Anti-Sex stuff into Christianity, not Jesus. Jesus never said half the things your everyday devout American christian says he said. It's coming from later books not the gospels. You say any of this stuff in an American church today, and you'll be asked to leave or shunned or disassociated. They worship Saint Paul, 99% of them do. You can't get around it.
Jesus said if you look lustfully at a woman that you've committed adultery with her in your heart (Matt 5:28). This goes way further than anything Paul has wrote. Jesus also said that "fornication" comes from the wicked heart as well (Matt 15:9).

You can not put blinders of the culture of the time that Jesus is in Israel. They would not need to be educated about fornication being a sin in the first place because they already knew that. Also you can read other books in the NT by John (i.e who wrote the book of Revelation as well) and even Peter and you can see it's spelled out quite clearly that it is sex within a marriage otherwise it's a sin.

So, you can't get away with isolating Paul. He is the most grace-orientated teacher out of all of them.

The book of John (not Paul) says to love not the world. (1 John 2:15). Lusts of the flesh are included in his description of loving the world.

The issue you have is that you might not have had a life-changing personal encounter with Jesus or a change of heart so that you'll see sin as sin and why Jesus came in the first place to atone for your sins. I find that if you are not totally sold out to Jesus and if you are not totally into the world-system then that's the most miserable type of existence. This is because you are missing out on that the world has to offer, but you still do not know where you stand with God at the end of the day, and are certainly missing out on the joy of the Lord. It's best for you to really get close to Jesus and find the joy of Lord and do something for Him rather than think like that because you want to be sure all this religion background is not a dead-weight and you still end up in hell anyway and also missed out on what the world has to offer here on top of that (i.e. not meant to encourage you to go to hell, but to illustrate a miserable position in principle). It wouldn't be fair to you for all the sacrifice you put into this as you claim? So just seek out Jesus and get close to Him.
 

zekko

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If you are a skeptic of authority, you'll see all sacred texts as means to the end of easier population control.
I tend to question everything. I'm sure some posters dislike me for that.

As I said before, we all know religion can be used as a tool of manipulation. HOWEVER, I most certainly do NOT believe that no one can write a book from a place of sincerity seeking spiritual understanding. Are you really trying to dismiss the entire Bible as simply an attempt at mind control? Because if you are, I have no words.
 

corrector

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Fornication is beating off against your own body.
The lustful look is against another man's wife. He didnt say you cant have 5 wives and 3 concubines like Abraham had.
Its about stealing another man's woman.
Fornication is not fapping, involves two people. We know this because the aspect that is emphasised when Paul describes fornication is two becoming one 1 Cor 6:16. That's the aspect that's particular revolting when a Christian visits a prostitute, it's becomes he becomes one with the harlot (referenced in same verse). If you are going to use words in the Bible to define what the Bible is saying, then you have to go with what the Bible describes it as (and which also happens to be how society/culture/historical also interprets it as too).

It's not the precise wording that is at issue, but it is the principle that is behind the wording. If someone commits adultery in heart with someone's wife, then it follows that someone could commit fornication in heart with a prostitute. Jesus doesn't need to spell this out if He already included such a strong statement.

However the Bible also says that we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23. The point here, according to many grace teachers, is not to make people paranoid, but to show that we have all failed to keep up with God's holy standard and therefore need Jesus Christ. Even if you never did so and so, if you did so in heart, then you are still guilty and are deficient to a holy God.

stringpuller said:
I think its something deeper that lines up with the OT.
St Paul created the rule of monogamy not Christ.
Biblical forefathers had many wives but women did not have many husbands. Not natural.
The OT consisted of mainly people who are not saved the same way as in the NT. The righteous dead went to Abraham's Bosom because they believed in grace on a credit-basis through the system of animal sacrifice to atone their sins (I.e. which we learned just covered them to make them blameless but did not actually remove them until Jesus came and went to the cross) pointing to Jesus. Being in that state, because of the "hardness of their heart" certain standards in the OT were simply tolerated, but it doesn't reflect's God's original intention and therefore are not really valid with the revelation of Jesus. (Matt 19:8).

An example of this is divorce. Divorce is allowed in the OT, but under no circumstance is divorce allowed in the NT, and if you re-marry once you have a divorce then it's an "adultery" with another woman. You won't see this in the OT. Multiple women for one man is not God's original intent either and is probably something that was relaxed because a higher standard would have been too much for that civil society under theocratic leadership (and later real kings) to bear.
 

corrector

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Save your breath. Its been 2000 years and there are a myriad of different ways to interpret these words and verses. I look to creation for answers and what's natural.
I assure you that jerking your life force all over yourself is worse then using as it was made. For a vagina.
Jesus also said that salvation was not for the samaritan dogs. So we all know that wasn't the real meaning just for the natural jew now was it.
Im not here for a biblical debate. I've already ate my food brah.
Im judged by no man
You are not up for debate yet you are raising a new argument about what Jesus said about salvation even though it out of context? I'm not going to bother responding to this then. The issue is with the OP not with you anyway. Sounds like you tried to start something you don't know how to finish.
 

redskinsfan92

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I have been tempted before to blame my shortcomings with women on my Independent Baptist upbringing. However, my friend of the same upbringing does well with women. I have been tempted to blame my 5'7" height. Well, he is the same height as me. You know what the difference is? When he sees a woman he likes he approaches like it's second nature. Me? In the past I overthink it and never approach. Who's fault is that? My parents? No. The church I grew up at? No. Women? No. It is my own.

See, you cannot change your past. Why even concern concern yourself with blaming it? Change your PRESENT. Not tomorrow. Not even today. Change right now! Now!
 

Bokanovsky

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I've always found this Biblical passage interesting:

"16 So don't be too good or too wise - why kill yourself? 17 But don't be too wicked or too foolish, either - why die before you have to?
18 Avoid both extremes. If you have reverence for God, you will be successful anyway."

You don't hear this one quoted much, but it sounds very practical. Being overly righteous is probably not a problem that most people have, but it might indicate that you have too much pride, and might isolate you so much that you can't relate to people. Avoid both extremes. If you have reverence for God, you will be successful anyway. I like that.
You don't hear this quoted much because it doesn't really mesh with the New Testament. Other ancient religions, like Buddhism and Hinduism, also promote the concept of balance. In contract, the (relatively) more modern religions like Christianity and Islam advocate submission and "virtue".
 

Spaz

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Boy spaz you just made me think of something jesus said in the last part of the bible. Last page maybe?

Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy

I used to ponder this one. I think it means what you just said. In a way.

I used tothink "holy" was some majical word until i realized it meant "whole"
Yeah, that's why the world has fanatics killing or sowing hatred in the name of God and also living Saints who does wonders in the name of God.

It's what's already inside a man.
 

Atom Smasher

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Question everything. Trust no man

Adultry and fornication do not carry the same meaning. Ive been back and forth through these questions off and on for 30 years. Theres no one answer.
Paul said everything is pure to the pure in heart. Chew on that for a few.
Talk about mind blower. Lol
Who is the pure in heart in God's view according to scripture?
 

Black Widow Void

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Left wing faggotry on overdrive.
Judging by your above posting (and another one several postings above) I take it that you are an agnostic or atheist?

I've been one or the other for over 40 years. However, our similarities end there.

Over the past ten years, I typically visit one church a year (just to keep an open mind) and always leave having my non-religious beliefs even more reaffirmed.

Lately though, I've noticed a correlation. It seems like the people I respect the most actually do have some core religious belief. And they don't seem uncool or some cookie-cutter christian types (this also includes members on this forum).

In some weird twist, your behavior is an alert that actually arrives at a perfect time (as I have currently been reevaluating things). Suffice to say, even during my most skeptical times, I've never behaved as you (I've always been respectful of those that had religious beliefs) . In fact, realizing that some members here (whom I respect) I'm now discovering are religious ... actually inspires me to look back into religion (more so than in my past).
 

Poonani Maker

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You are not up for debate yet you are raising a new argument about what Jesus said about salvation even though it out of context? I'm not going to bother responding to this then. The issue is with the OP not with you anyway. Sounds like you tried to start something you don't know how to finish.
Jesus blessed the Wedding at Cana (his first show of miracle turning water to wine). Would He have blessed this couple IF they had been Jew groom marrying a Gentile bride? I think not!
 

Poonani Maker

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I have been tempted before to blame my shortcomings with women on my Independent Baptist upbringing. However, my friend of the same upbringing does well with women. I have been tempted to blame my 5'7" height. Well, he is the same height as me. You know what the difference is? When he sees a woman he likes he approaches like it's second nature. Me? In the past I overthink it and never approach. Who's fault is that? My parents? No. The church I grew up at? No. Women? No. It is my own.

See, you cannot change your past. Why even concern concern yourself with blaming it? Change your PRESENT. Not tomorrow. Not even today. Change right now! Now!
I was just analyzing my HS annual pic (and page) as shown to me by Ancestry.com (btw, how did they get it?). I hadn't seen it since the year it was taken. Was attempting to ascertain what made up that 17 yr old me (very troubled and just angry as can be). I guess I'm still that guy, but age mellows or tires you out. I certainly didn't Work then like I do now. I "worked" in sports but that's not the same day in and day out. It took a long time for me to grow up.
 

taiyuu_otoko

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Are you really trying to dismiss the entire Bible as simply an attempt at mind control? Because if you are, I have no words.
I was very careful to specifically not do that in my post.

Now you're asking me if I'm trying to dismiss the ENTIRE BIBLE as simply an attempt at mind control.

If you're a bible guy or a God guy, that's fine. I got no problem with God people or Bible people.

There are plenty of ways to interpret scripture (even the devil can do so for his own purposes) for own needs.

But since you potentially "have no words" for something you essentially assumed about my intentions, this suggests a kind of emotional reaction to my OPINION.

Which suggests you may not question things as much as you'd like others to believe.

The idea of somebody having "no words" to another's opinion doesn't seem to jive with somebody who "questions everything."

Which is fine, makes no difference to me.

My opinion remains the same.

The bible (and other religious texts) CAN EASILY and HAS EASILY been used to make ruling others easier.

Scripture is very much a tool, not something that is self evidently true.

So quote the bible all you like, but don't expect people to share your interpretations.

The same passage can easily be used as a source of self driven inspiration AND a tool of oppression.

And when you talk about the SOURCE, they are passed down as oral tradition for generations before being written down.

And since all oral traditions were passed down by TRIBAL LEADERS, I would suggest that at the very least, the stories that were most likely to be passed down had, at the very least, some element in them that allowed those same tribal leaders to maintain their ruling power.

If you START with the assumption that scripture is GOD given, then this will upset you.

But that assumption has problems all on its own.

Like, how, specifically, did the ideas get from God's mind to the storyteller's mind? Did the storyteller go into a trance, and momentarily lose his free will?

Was it due to magic, beyond the comprehension of humans?

Were the laws of science temporarily suspended while it happened?

What is your opinion on this?

How, specifically, did the passage you quote come into being?

Once upon a time, that particular idea DID NOT EXIST ,and then a time later, it did.

What, specifically, happened in that intermediary time period?
 

Spaz

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I have been tempted before to blame my shortcomings with women on my Independent Baptist upbringing. However, my friend of the same upbringing does well with women. I have been tempted to blame my 5'7" height. Well, he is the same height as me. You know what the difference is? When he sees a woman he likes he approaches like it's second nature. Me? In the past I overthink it and never approach. Who's fault is that? My parents? No. The church I grew up at? No. Women? No. It is my own.

See, you cannot change your past. Why even concern concern yourself with blaming it? Change your PRESENT. Not tomorrow. Not even today. Change right now! Now!
I missed this post earlier.

Imagine a youngster who has the right kind of mindset as compared to many men who are more senior then him.

I'm proud of you.
 

Spaz

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As for the rest of you men who's dissing Christianity or even the Bible.

Just think of it as an "anchor" in the life story or world that you live in, through ur own creation, the anchor that pulls you back in once you stray too far from it.
 

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As for the rest of you men who's dissing Christianity or even the Bible.

Just think of it as an "anchor" in the life story or world that you live in, through ur own creation, the anchor that pulls you back in once you stray too far from it.
More of an agnostic myself. Myself is my own anchor. It's called self-control. It may be a rarity these days, but all people can possess this trait... If they can find it in themselves to set their own limits and stick to them.
 

corrector

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Jesus blessed the Wedding at Cana (his first show of miracle turning water to wine). Would He have blessed this couple IF they had been Jew groom marrying a Gentile bride? I think not!
LIke I said before, you talking about Jesus like a historical Jesus in a critical way tells me that you don't have an experience with Jesus as a personal revelation but just have a got a religious history and therefore a dead-weight to you unless you do something with that. The book of James says faith without works is dead. Dead-faith is a dead-weight in someone's life because it just adds restrictions in your life without the benefit of those restrictions and leads to resentment. Otherwise you should be expected to have more spiritual discernment (i.e. understand what message that passage is trying to say knowing that water and blood came out of Jesus when the Roman soldier pierced his side, which this miracle would foreshadow that moment because wine symbolizes blood and water symbolizes the the lymph) rather than just having such a carnal interpretation to this.
 
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Spaz

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More of an agnostic myself. Myself is my own anchor. It's called self-control. It may be a rarity these days, but all people can possess this trait... If they can find it in themselves to set their own limits and stick to them.
Rick I'm not here to spread Christianity nor is it the appropriate platform.

I'm just pointing out to the fellas here that each and every man has an inborn duty to take responsibility for their own actions in life, hence the "anchor".

It's good that you hv yours, and so do many others who either uses their brains to think or prefers to use other spiritual means such as the Bible.

It is after all a guide.

It's like Einstein giving the world E=Mc2 but ended up being blamed for the creation of the atomic bomb whilst ignoring the fact that the uses of that formula has many other good applications.
 

Speculator E

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If you START with the assumption that scripture is GOD given, then this will upset you.
But that assumption has problems all on its own.
Like, how, specifically, did the ideas get from God's mind to the storyteller's mind? Did the storyteller go into a trance, and momentarily lose his free will?

Was it due to magic, beyond the comprehension of humans?
Were the laws of science temporarily suspended while it happened?
What is your opinion on this?
How, specifically, did the passage you quote come into being?
Once upon a time, that particular idea DID NOT EXIST ,and then a time later, it did.
What, specifically, happened in that intermediary time period?
Good Questions?
What do you know about DMT and God?
It has been suggested that taking DMT is the gateway drug to speaking with God.

 
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