Great replies guys, thanks. That boyfriend dilemma link was very interesting. Who would have thought that being a catch would make it harder for her to give it up. I think this is what is happening. Just when you think you figure women out, you get smacked in the face.Jitterbug said:
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With holding of sex is a dating strategy
- Thread starter Pandora
- Start date
glass half full
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You know, maybe we should tell these gals straight up, early in the relationship "One thing I really want in a relationship is a really really good sex life. I don't think it makes a woman one bit slvtty to want good healthy no-holds barred sex. In fact if it isn't in a relationship, then it's not going to be considered a healthy, worthwhile relationship to me". That way the cards are on the table, and there's no room for bullshet excuses. In fact I think I am going to adopt this very technique.
Mike32ct
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I tried the "waiting" thing with several girls. "I'm not gonna be like every other guy and rush getting intimate. I'll just go at her pace and let it (sex) happen when it happens."
You know how that worked out?
About 90 percent of time, they ended up dumping me. Our "relationship" lasted until maybe the fourth date MAX, and then she would disappear and go no contact.
Her is how the hamster works:
"He's a good LTR guy so I'm gonna make him wait."
<Three or four dates go by with no action.>
"We haven't even been intimate yet. I'm not sure I even like him now. Maybe he's just not my type. I'm gonna ignore his texts and F my ex tonight."
You know how that worked out?
About 90 percent of time, they ended up dumping me. Our "relationship" lasted until maybe the fourth date MAX, and then she would disappear and go no contact.
Her is how the hamster works:
"He's a good LTR guy so I'm gonna make him wait."
<Three or four dates go by with no action.>
"We haven't even been intimate yet. I'm not sure I even like him now. Maybe he's just not my type. I'm gonna ignore his texts and F my ex tonight."
Who Dares Win
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So much truth in here again Mike, probably the user which share the most useful wisdom in here.Mike32ct said:
At this purpose I believe the solution is to establish a progressive escalation, kiss on date 1 to filter uninterested girls/AWs/avoid FZ, some making out on and intimate touching on date 2, an intercourse or at least a BJ on date 3 and so on.
Sex really early is great to take the fvck buddy route but apparently their hamsters dont connect it to a Longterm while if no intimacy at all happens, its the case you talked about.
Mike32ct
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^This. You really do have to make sure you're progressing physically. That's the key.Who Dares Win said:
Everybody has their own standards. Mine is sort of close to what WDW said.
Date 1 - Quick kiss on lips minimum. If I get no kiss or her cheek, it's over.
Date 2 - Make out is the minimum.
Date 3: Her shirt and bra off at an absolute MINIMUM. If all clothes stay on through date three, its over, unless I get a BJ or HJ
.I don't mind cutting her some slack if we are progressing. But three dates with just light kissing isn't going to fly anymore. I honesty made several good faith efforts being Mr. Patient. I don't recommend it.
zekko
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That's the key here. She has to find you attractive. Women see me as a good catch, and I know they think of me as potential boyfriend material. As a result, though, my experience is that women who are interested in me cannot wait to have sex with me. They want the intimacy.Who Dares Win said:
Now if they were not genuinely attracted, and just wanted to use you for something, that's when they're going to be playing carrot and the stick with the sex. But if they're attracted, they're going to want the sex as much as you do.
As I said above, this isn't my experience. Women who have wanted me for a boyfriend could not wait to have sex with me. Because they were genuinely attracted and emotionally invested.Jitterbug said:
Also as I said before, women definitely (correctly) see me as a good catch and good potential boyfriend material. Far from giving me nightmares though, I find this flattering. Why wouldn't they feel this way? If they didn't, I would think there was something wrong. If a guy is high value, a girl isn't going to just want the pump and dump, she's going to want to stick around. As they should want to, if you are a quality guy.
Scaramouche
Master Don Juan
Dear Pandora,
If they use svex as a bargaining chip in dating,then they have learnt a valuable lesson.that they will use for the rest of their lives...No svex must be something that takes control of the couple,if she can be cold enough to resist this,then you will have constant feuding over this commodity should you be unwise enough to marry her!
If they use svex as a bargaining chip in dating,then they have learnt a valuable lesson.that they will use for the rest of their lives...No svex must be something that takes control of the couple,if she can be cold enough to resist this,then you will have constant feuding over this commodity should you be unwise enough to marry her!
PlayHer Man
Banned
What's funny in these "alpha" vs. "beta" discussions is how much intense thought goes into trying to behave the way an alpha would. This is the totally wrong approach. Its not about looking inward, its about looking outward. Its about how a man views women...visions said:
The Alpha view of women: An incubator and moist slit for his penis (credit to Burroughs for this)
The Beta view of women: A mommy, best friend, psychiatrist, goddess, delicate flower, all the beauty in the world, the only reason to breath :crackup:
Once a man changes how he thinks.. his actions and behavior will adjust accordingly.
Folks its 2013
IF you are not bawlz deep in the chick within 3 hours of the first date ITS NOT HAPPENING
the only exception
she wants you to go bawlz deep but you are playing her off to drive her hamster nuts
all other biyaches either see you as a credit card or walking emotional tampon or both
Megaman XIV
Senior Don Juan
If a woman withholds sex, it's a power grab. The decision of sex is always the woman's. If a man denies his woman sex, she won't have any problems getting any. Call a chump from the iphone or facialbook! Women have much more options than men, thus they've got control over the dating game!Burroughs said:
Mike32ct, I love your posts. I also don't recommend being Mr. Patient (Playing the friend.)
Burroughs, you're amazing as hell. Hypergamy is through the roof! Women know how to keep raising the price of pu$$y, but men have a whole lot of trouble bringing it down. You see so many tales of the Golden vagina, but none of the golden dic!
If a woman sees you as relationship material, she'll make you wait. Women know how to calculate love (Briffault's law.) and your value.
PlayHer Man said:What's funny in these "alpha" vs. "beta" discussions is how much intense thought goes into trying to behave the way an alpha would. This is the totally wrong approach. Its not about looking inward, its about looking outward. Its about how a man views women...
The Alpha view of women: An incubator and moist slit for his penis (credit to Burroughs for this)
The Beta view of women: A mommy, best friend, psychiatrist, goddess, delicate flower, all the beauty in the world, the only reason to breath :crackup:
Once a man changes how he thinks.. his actions and behavior will adjust accordingly.
you have a point. most of the time people ask advice or are given advice on how to change themselves to be better with women. thinking about it, it's preferable to change your outlook on women than who you are. changing your outlook will be a self-esteem/confidence builder, and from that the rest follows
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
2 wordsMike32ct said:
spin plates
it's that simple.
you know how many women when i was single i ran into who had the oh **** he has his **** together i am going to take it slow game plan? quite a few. my wife had it.
all that goes out the window when she realizes that you have other options, and not just have other options, that you are probably fvcking your other options.
you've taken away the power. the ***** isn ot magical anymore because you are getting it and getting it without her giving it up
i don't give a **** how you see me, if we aren't progressing at a speed i think is reasonable you can go. some women will tell themselves oh well he just wanted me for my body. those are the ones that are 36 years old at bars that are mind ****ing themelves out of good men.
it' really this simple; once a girl decides she likes you enough to have ex wtih you, you should be having ex. anything else is unacceptable.
it's like mike tyson said " they all got a plan.. until i hit them".
all women got some plan or scheme. until she runs into a real motherfreaking DJ then all that goes out the window.
be mike tyson
Let's put this in context. I don't disagree with you, but I suspect we date different generations and demographics of women.zekko said:
To clarify, the ones who see me as boyfriend/husband materials would definitely sleep with me eventually (and they did) BUT I'd be made to work a lot harder (the nightmare comment is just a joke, come on). What I do with the relationship time limit strategy is to put the "you can have me now, or maybe never, as I'm leaving" choices on the table. I don't want to work harder than I have to. Besides, many of those who see me as potential BF/hubby are not attractive enough for me long term (thanks hypergamy). If I get easy sex, I'll take it, but no more work than that.
To give this a bit more context for my personal case, I'm a non-Christian, non-white bloke who has a habit of bedding Christians and white girls (matter of access and availability, not deliberate choice). Most of those are attracted to me in some ways, but don't see me as long term (not the kind of bloke they bring home to see mama or even close friends unless I turn white or Christian - never gonna happen). If I try to sell myself as a good BF, they will quickly disqualify me. After a couple of painful experiences including an oneitis case that I still slap myself for if the thought ever crosses my mind again, I've learned that it is to my advantage to sell myself as a d1ck that doesn't count towards her pre-marriage total. My open reluctance to get into relationships also makes me more enticing to the girls who do want to make me their BFs.
I'm far from the only one who realises that the good BF materials strategy does not work and in fact drives modern girls away. This is consistently observed by men who are out in the mine field of dating at the moment. I reckon you'd agree with us if you were out approaching and dating right now.
It's a very different world out there. We're just trying to survive and get our nuts on.
from Esther Villar
Man has been manipulated by woman to the point where he cannot live without her and therefore will do anything she asks of him. He fights for his life and calls it love. There are even men who will threaten their idolized female with suicide unless she accepts him. Not that this is much of a risk for them - they have nothing to lose.
Woman, nevertheless, is incapable of living without a man. Like a queen bee, she cannot survive on her own. She, too, is fighting for her life, and she, too, calls it love. They each need one another, in fact, and it seems therefore that they share at least one sentiment. The cause, nature, and consequences of this sentiment however differ as much as do the sexes.
To a woman love means power, to a man enslavement. Love provides woman with an excuse for financial exploitation, man with an emotionally charged excuse. `For the sake of love' woman will do things that are of advantage only to herself, while man does only those things that will harm him. When a woman marries, she gives up her career `for the sake of love.' When a man marries, he will have to work for two `for the sake of love.' For both sexes, love is a fight for survival. But the one survives only by being victorious, the other only by being defeated. It is a paradox that women can also make their greatest gains during moments of utter passivity and that the word `love' endows them with a halo of selflessness, even at the moment of their most pitiless deception of man.
As a result of `love,' man is able to hide his cowardly self-deception behind a smoke screen of sentiment. He is able to make himself believe that his senseless enslavement to woman and her hostages is more than an act of honor, it has a higher purpose. He is entirely happy in his role as a slave and has arrived at the goal he has so long desired. Since woman gains nothing but one advantage after another from the situation as it stands today, things will never change. The system forces her to be corrupt, but no one is going to worry about that. Since one can expect nothing from a woman but love, it will remain the currency for any need she might have. Man, her slave, will continue to use his energies only according to his conditioning and never to his own advantage. He will achieve greater goals and the more he achieves, the farther women will become alienated from him. The more he tries to ingratiate himself with her, the more demanding she will become; the more he desires her, the less she finds him desirable; the more comforts he provides for her, the more indolent, stupid and inhuman she will become - and man will grow lonelier as a
result.
Only woman can break the vicious circle of man's manipulation and exploitation - but she will not do it. There is absolutely no compelling reason why she should.
zekko
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You make some valid points, although I suspect that our potential dating pools are not as far off age-wise as you might thinkJitterbug said:Let's put this in context. I don't disagree with you, but I suspect we date different generations and demographics of women.
This may be my ego talking, but I think the reactions I receive have less to do with the women and more to do with me. I'm a fairly average looking guy (probably a 7), I have a nice house, make good money (especially for my area), am not afraid of commitment (although marriage is off the table), and do not see women as merely "warm slits for my penis" (as Play Her Man put it). This is probably enough to label me a "***** beta provider" in the eyes of this forum.
But I also lift, workout, keep fit, keep a masculine edge (probably easier for someone from my generation), tease, lead, keep the frame, don't tolerate disrespect, and am very particular about the type of women I date. Honestly, I don't have as many women chasing me as I think I should (I think they should all be lining up - it's in their best self interest). But the girls who like me get very attracted and cannot wait to give it up first chance they get.
The irony of all this is that I'm not even the type of guy who would mind if she wanted to put off sex until the third date. I think that would be perfectly understandle, and I'm a fairly patient person.
I don't have a "good boyfriend" strategy. Nor do I have a "bad boy" strategy. I don't play petty games, I don't play good boyfriend or cad, I just do me, take it or leave it. Not all women will be attracted to me, but enough will.Jitterbug said:
But I am confused about one thing. You said that being a good boyfriend type results in girls delaying sex, but then later you say it drives girls away, which is not quite the same thing. Which is true (from your perspective)?
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Mike32ct
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Well said. Agreed. Thanks.
backbreaker said:
As a chick who withholds sex, I dont do it to test a guy. I dont have sex until I trust someone. I actually dont even enjoy sex if I cannot trust the guy. I caved in too quickly a few times in my early college years and I remember not being into it at all despite the cute's guy slick moves. Perhaps Im a weirdo but thats how I am. It isnt a predmeditated way to make a guy jump through hoops.
Any guy who wants to **** me before he hardly knows me is an entitled ass and Id be happier if they went along their merry way. You hardly know someone the first month you date- it takes on average 3 months or longer for someones true colors to come out. The person is a stranger to you dates 1-3.
Doing this really just weeds out the *******s anyway.
All of my male friends have told me that the girls who dont put out right away tend to be higher quality girls anyway who make better girlfriends. But you all just want sex, so I can understand why you dont give a **** if shes high quality or not.
Any guy who wants to **** me before he hardly knows me is an entitled ass and Id be happier if they went along their merry way. You hardly know someone the first month you date- it takes on average 3 months or longer for someones true colors to come out. The person is a stranger to you dates 1-3.
Doing this really just weeds out the *******s anyway.
All of my male friends have told me that the girls who dont put out right away tend to be higher quality girls anyway who make better girlfriends. But you all just want sex, so I can understand why you dont give a **** if shes high quality or not.
zekko
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See, this is one reason women don't tend to make me wait for sex. I don't like game playing, and I'm fundamentally an honest person. I see no reason to lie to impress girls. I don't try to manipulate my way into her pants. My girlfriend says one of the things she likes about me is that I don't come across as a douchebag. So women trust me.rearea said:
Of course, a good many guys on this forum will tell you to act like a douchebag and women will want you. That might be good advice for guys who have nothing else going for them.
But rearea, I've read some of your posts. Maybe your problem is that you aren't trusting enough? Not every guy is a horndog manwh0re, despite what you read here.
One thing I find interesting is that at one time, people got to know each other and then decided if they wanted to have sex. Now days people have sex with each other and then decide if they want to get to know each other.rearea said:
Naughty Ninja
Banned
The giving it up to bad boys and withholding from good catches is weak game that works on clowns.Pandora said:Along time ago a female friend of mine told me that when a girl withholds se*, its just a dating strategy. My female friend told me that its not that girls view sex as sacred or special but that they are acting that way for an ulterior motive. She said that its simple economics. She also said that you don't find this behavior in ugly and average chicks because they cant afford to hold out the sex for too long. They don't view sex as less sacred. They just cant get away with not giving it up. From what i observed on a recent date, i think my female friend is correct.
A girl i went on a date with told me that she only f*#ks guys that she thinks are bad people. She does this because she doesn't care how they view her and that she does not see a long term future in the relationship. Either she would leave him soon or he is moving away very soon, or he is just such a bad person that she is not going to seriously date him.
She said that guys that she likes she takes it very slow. She actually told me that she does not even give up the po*n to these type of guys for a very very long time. She stated that if she see's a long term future with you then you are not gonna get any. She specifically stated that if she feels herself actually starting to really like you then she will not have s*x with you. She wont even get physical with you!!!
I personally feel that this girl is expressing female hypergamy. The guys she does not see a long term future in are the guys that she is aroused by. They are also the guys who are moving away very soon, so she will not get judged for being slutty. "Who cares becuz he is leaving". I assume these guys get her really hot.
They guys who she see a long term future with are the beta types with a nice personality. Marriage type. She would not compromise their respect of her by giving it up too easily. She want these beta types to look at her as a catch im guessing. Or she may not be sexually attracted to these beta types but still likes the idea of them being her boyfriend some day. Idk....but im sure its some form of female hypergamy. Help me figure this out.
Btw she is not giving it up to me at all right now but she calls me all the time. So i must be the beta type of dude to her ...FUC**!!
What the chick is basically doing is having her cake and eating it to. It's all about that type of chick.
Give sex to the "bad boys" = She get's her quick sex fix. (It's about her.)
Withhold from the catches = Manipulation to string them along to provide the rest of the good things for her till she "maybe" gives it up but more often than not gets bored and runs the same game on some other oversized clown shoe. (It's all about her.)
"I withhold from sex for good guys = In her mind: "I'm a cvm dumpster who all men just want me for sex as I have nothing else to offer so that's my trump card."
Chicks who pull that nonsense need to be gamed hard with you having more options and the tools learned on here then pump and dumped or not bothered with at all and left wondering why her catch up and just disappeared while she sits rationalizing and justifying it to herself that "he was just in it for sex. = That's all I'm good for."
Any dude with options who isn't a thirsty "nice guy" wouldn't play that for a second. And if a chick TRIED to pull that "withholding sex because I'm a great catch" nonsense, a dude who knows the deal's lightbulb would go off that she gives it up to the "bad boys" without her even saying it and would treat her like the sh1t she is, pump and dump or just up and leave her retarded azz. Period.
Mike32ct
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Rearea:
I'll preface this by saying this is just a friendly discussion, not an attack....
HONESTLY, what is your level of attraction for the guys you make wait? (A helpful "attraction scale" is listed below.)
High --- I finish myself off at home after he drops me off from our celibate "wait date."
Moderate --- I want him, but not going to jump his bones tomorrow.
Low --- Sex is just something I HAVE TO DO eventually to keep this guy. I'm not looking forward to it.
On the flip side, what was your level of attraction for the guys you got with quickly (even if you think it was a mistake)?
I'll preface this by saying this is just a friendly discussion, not an attack....
HONESTLY, what is your level of attraction for the guys you make wait? (A helpful "attraction scale" is listed below.)
High --- I finish myself off at home after he drops me off from our celibate "wait date."
Moderate --- I want him, but not going to jump his bones tomorrow.
Low --- Sex is just something I HAVE TO DO eventually to keep this guy. I'm not looking forward to it.
On the flip side, what was your level of attraction for the guys you got with quickly (even if you think it was a mistake)?
