Pumax
Don Juan
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2025
- Messages
- 177
- Reaction score
- 70
Hey guys,
What some men might interpret as "toxic" behavior in others, regarding how they treat the world and women, is often just a lack of "respectful" or "moral" conduct. Yet, we are told that to become mature men and grow up, we must be "respectful" and hold "values" that automatically make us moral.
We also know that women are masters of the subtle art of spotting small details in men. So they are the only ones who truly recognize what they are attracted to; you only have to look at what they respond to and how they act and put that into "Facts".
If we trust that premise, we should also trust the evidence of the actions most women actually take.
If they are, and most importantly stay, in LTR with men whom we, the stable, mature, respectful, and principled types, label as "toxic," then there must be underlying reasons for it.
What do women pick up on regarding these "toxic" men that they don't sense in "mature" men?
The answer is actually at the end of the post, but we must see why is that.
It seems that mature men are quite happy with their lives and have no trouble attracting women or having STRs.
However, it appears that "toxic" men, aside from succeeding in STRs, also find success in LTRs.
This constantly makes "mature" men wonder what these "toxic" men have that they don't, leading them to conclude that most women are simply attracted to toxic men. Personally, I have seen, time and time again, at least 30 LTR couples consisting of a "toxic" man and a wife who is a truly good, lovely, and kind woman.
That just should bring any man to focus on just "facts", so, if these women are with those "toxic" men, there MUST be a reason.
That said, while women may perceive a wider range of traits in men, even a simple man like myself can recognize the following characteristics in such men.
The Toxic Man
- Self-assured. He needs to feel superior or admired, or to have control over others.
- Views relationships instrumentally: he evaluates people and situations based on what they can offer him (sex, attention, status, money, connections, or utility)—which is why he is so socially adept.
- Can be very charming and kind when he wants something. Transactional kindness.
- Idealization and devaluation: he may exalt someone and then disparage them once they are no longer useful to him.
- Low empathy: he understands what the other person is feeling but uses that knowledge to his own advantage, or to gauge others' suffering so he can derive pleasure from it.
- Respects his own boundaries but not those of others.
- Uses guilt, silence, withdrawal of affection, threats, jealousy, or the fear of abandonment as tools for control; creates insecurity through comparisons, criticism, ambiguity, or triangulation.
- Needs to control the relationship; when he loses that control, he may ramp up pressure, anger, threats, or manipulation.
- Has poor emotional self-control and may react to frustration, rejection, or disagreement with anger, aggression, sarcasm, contempt, or playing the victim.
- In arguments, he often seeks to win or be proven right rather than solve the problem.
- Struggles to admit his mistakes or acknowledge his own responsibility. (Low self-criticism and introspection)
- May rewrite past events, downplay the harm caused, or cast doubt on the other person's perception to avoid accountability.
- Apologies may be self-serving ("I'm sorry, but *you* provoked me") and not lead to genuine change.
- May minimize the harm done with phrases like "I was just joking," "You're too sensitive," or "It wasn't that big a deal."
- Displays different behaviors in public versus private: affable and respectful with others, yet demeaning or intimidating within the relationship.
- Attempts to control the social narrative, portraying themselves as the victim and the other person as unstable, ungrateful, or problematic.
- Once they get what they want, they may drastically reduce their attention, interest, or investment in the relationship, then promise to change without actually altering their behavior; the pattern tends to repeat.
- If they sense they are losing the relationship or control, they may suddenly become very affectionate, promise changes, or try to rekindle old ties.
- Struggles to tolerate failure, rejection, frustration, and loss of status, and may react by seeking revenge or demeaning others. (An inability to accept failure or rejection demonstrates a lack of true self-confidence.)
- Can be emotionally, verbally, and—in some cases—physically abusive.
Mature man
- Is s- He is self-assured without needing to prove his superiority over others.
- His self-esteem does not depend on controlling, being admired by, or commanding the submission of others, but rather on the extent to which he has mastered himself.
- He knows his own strengths and limitations and recognizes that others have their own needs, limitations, and rights. (He respects himself, his boundaries, and his values.)
- He views the other person as an individual, not as a resource for obtaining sex, attention, status, money, connections, or advantages. (Respect for others' boundaries.)
- He is kind without turning that kindness into a debt to be collected. (Paradoxically, the toxic man often adopts a "nice guy" persona.)
- He possesses empathy: he understands what the other person is feeling and takes it into account in his own behavior.
- He respects the other person's "no," boundaries, autonomy, and freedom, even when he disagrees.
- He does not use silence, guilt, the withdrawal of affection, jealousy, or threats to gain control. (Honest, non-violent communication.)
- He does not use other people to incite competition, jealousy, or insecurity, nor does he try to isolate his partner from their support systems.
- He does not need to control the relationship to feel secure or important.
- He has good emotional self-control: he can experience anger, frustration, or jealousy without using them to attack, intimidate, or punish.
- He can tolerate dissent, criticism, rejection, and failure without perceiving them as personal attacks. (Much of his growth stems from the resilience to move forward after setbacks and view failure positively.)
- During a conflict, he seeks to understand the issue and find a solution, rather than trying to determine a winner. (Problem-solving.)
- He knows how to pause a discussion when it becomes destructive and resume it later with greater clarity. - He takes responsibility for his actions and, when he makes a mistake, can admit "I was wrong" without shifting the blame onto the other person.
- He is capable of self-criticism and reflects on his own behavior. (Self-criticism and introspection)
- His apologies are sincere and accompanied by concrete, consistent behavioral changes over time.
- He maintains consistency between how he behaves in public and how he treats people in private.
- He does not need to construct a narrative where he is the victim and the other person is the culprit.
- He maintains a relatively stable emotional presence and does not deliberately alternate between intensity and coldness to create insecurity.
- When a relationship ends, he accepts rejection and distance without trying to regain control through pressure, promises, or manipulation.
- He accepts that the other person might change their mind, pull away, or end the relationship, even if he disagrees.
- He does not view the loss of a relationship as a loss of status or a personal defeat.
- He is vulnerable without using that vulnerability to manipulate.
Now, this is what a man (at least I) can see in the behavior of other men around me.
So, I can tell whether someone is genuine or fake, mature or toxic.
If women are the "experts" at recognizing these things and are attentive to detail, they could probably make an even longer list than this one. But honestly.. should they?
My perspective on this is as follows:
In a world where nature has hardwired women to prioritize survival, tell me: why should they choose the mature man?
Women often feel that the ideal man, the one who will protect them (and their children), is actually the toxic one. They see him conquering everything with his lack of morals, especially in modern society, where you have to trample on others if you want to succeed and "survive." Yet, deep down, they know that the man they would actually like to be with is the mature one, because he makes them feel truly heard, while helping them grow as women.
So, can we say that women's preference for men with toxic traits is actually a preference for being with the strongest man, even when a woman senses that being with him isn't good for her? Is it simply that he possesses the means (aggression, deceit, abuse) to dominate other men and secure resources?
This is something a mature man struggles to do if he upholds his own morality, self-control, and values.
And it's just not in their nature to do so.
This is just my opinion.
Regardless of whether a woman is healthy, kind, respectful, hardworking, and a good partner and mother, or a toxic individual,unhealthy, stingy, disrespectful, and lazy,both types share a tendency (almost like an innate biological drive) to choose and stay with a man who can exploit the world and the people in it. They are drawn to a man who uses whatever unscrupulous means necessary to protect her, because it proves to her that he can ensure her survival. But the first, will find one who is able to maintain a respectable/positive social image, while the latter won't really care about that.
(This seems to hold true for young women; however, as time goes on, I notice that women may want a man to mature. Once the children are grown so, around age 45–50, they begin to desire a different kind of man: the mature one. Older men here might want to weigh in on this and comment their POV)
What some men might interpret as "toxic" behavior in others, regarding how they treat the world and women, is often just a lack of "respectful" or "moral" conduct. Yet, we are told that to become mature men and grow up, we must be "respectful" and hold "values" that automatically make us moral.
We also know that women are masters of the subtle art of spotting small details in men. So they are the only ones who truly recognize what they are attracted to; you only have to look at what they respond to and how they act and put that into "Facts".
If we trust that premise, we should also trust the evidence of the actions most women actually take.
If they are, and most importantly stay, in LTR with men whom we, the stable, mature, respectful, and principled types, label as "toxic," then there must be underlying reasons for it.
What do women pick up on regarding these "toxic" men that they don't sense in "mature" men?
The answer is actually at the end of the post, but we must see why is that.
It seems that mature men are quite happy with their lives and have no trouble attracting women or having STRs.
However, it appears that "toxic" men, aside from succeeding in STRs, also find success in LTRs.
This constantly makes "mature" men wonder what these "toxic" men have that they don't, leading them to conclude that most women are simply attracted to toxic men. Personally, I have seen, time and time again, at least 30 LTR couples consisting of a "toxic" man and a wife who is a truly good, lovely, and kind woman.
That just should bring any man to focus on just "facts", so, if these women are with those "toxic" men, there MUST be a reason.
That said, while women may perceive a wider range of traits in men, even a simple man like myself can recognize the following characteristics in such men.
The Toxic Man
- Self-assured. He needs to feel superior or admired, or to have control over others.
- Views relationships instrumentally: he evaluates people and situations based on what they can offer him (sex, attention, status, money, connections, or utility)—which is why he is so socially adept.
- Can be very charming and kind when he wants something. Transactional kindness.
- Idealization and devaluation: he may exalt someone and then disparage them once they are no longer useful to him.
- Low empathy: he understands what the other person is feeling but uses that knowledge to his own advantage, or to gauge others' suffering so he can derive pleasure from it.
- Respects his own boundaries but not those of others.
- Uses guilt, silence, withdrawal of affection, threats, jealousy, or the fear of abandonment as tools for control; creates insecurity through comparisons, criticism, ambiguity, or triangulation.
- Needs to control the relationship; when he loses that control, he may ramp up pressure, anger, threats, or manipulation.
- Has poor emotional self-control and may react to frustration, rejection, or disagreement with anger, aggression, sarcasm, contempt, or playing the victim.
- In arguments, he often seeks to win or be proven right rather than solve the problem.
- Struggles to admit his mistakes or acknowledge his own responsibility. (Low self-criticism and introspection)
- May rewrite past events, downplay the harm caused, or cast doubt on the other person's perception to avoid accountability.
- Apologies may be self-serving ("I'm sorry, but *you* provoked me") and not lead to genuine change.
- May minimize the harm done with phrases like "I was just joking," "You're too sensitive," or "It wasn't that big a deal."
- Displays different behaviors in public versus private: affable and respectful with others, yet demeaning or intimidating within the relationship.
- Attempts to control the social narrative, portraying themselves as the victim and the other person as unstable, ungrateful, or problematic.
- Once they get what they want, they may drastically reduce their attention, interest, or investment in the relationship, then promise to change without actually altering their behavior; the pattern tends to repeat.
- If they sense they are losing the relationship or control, they may suddenly become very affectionate, promise changes, or try to rekindle old ties.
- Struggles to tolerate failure, rejection, frustration, and loss of status, and may react by seeking revenge or demeaning others. (An inability to accept failure or rejection demonstrates a lack of true self-confidence.)
- Can be emotionally, verbally, and—in some cases—physically abusive.
Mature man
- Is s- He is self-assured without needing to prove his superiority over others.
- His self-esteem does not depend on controlling, being admired by, or commanding the submission of others, but rather on the extent to which he has mastered himself.
- He knows his own strengths and limitations and recognizes that others have their own needs, limitations, and rights. (He respects himself, his boundaries, and his values.)
- He views the other person as an individual, not as a resource for obtaining sex, attention, status, money, connections, or advantages. (Respect for others' boundaries.)
- He is kind without turning that kindness into a debt to be collected. (Paradoxically, the toxic man often adopts a "nice guy" persona.)
- He possesses empathy: he understands what the other person is feeling and takes it into account in his own behavior.
- He respects the other person's "no," boundaries, autonomy, and freedom, even when he disagrees.
- He does not use silence, guilt, the withdrawal of affection, jealousy, or threats to gain control. (Honest, non-violent communication.)
- He does not use other people to incite competition, jealousy, or insecurity, nor does he try to isolate his partner from their support systems.
- He does not need to control the relationship to feel secure or important.
- He has good emotional self-control: he can experience anger, frustration, or jealousy without using them to attack, intimidate, or punish.
- He can tolerate dissent, criticism, rejection, and failure without perceiving them as personal attacks. (Much of his growth stems from the resilience to move forward after setbacks and view failure positively.)
- During a conflict, he seeks to understand the issue and find a solution, rather than trying to determine a winner. (Problem-solving.)
- He knows how to pause a discussion when it becomes destructive and resume it later with greater clarity. - He takes responsibility for his actions and, when he makes a mistake, can admit "I was wrong" without shifting the blame onto the other person.
- He is capable of self-criticism and reflects on his own behavior. (Self-criticism and introspection)
- His apologies are sincere and accompanied by concrete, consistent behavioral changes over time.
- He maintains consistency between how he behaves in public and how he treats people in private.
- He does not need to construct a narrative where he is the victim and the other person is the culprit.
- He maintains a relatively stable emotional presence and does not deliberately alternate between intensity and coldness to create insecurity.
- When a relationship ends, he accepts rejection and distance without trying to regain control through pressure, promises, or manipulation.
- He accepts that the other person might change their mind, pull away, or end the relationship, even if he disagrees.
- He does not view the loss of a relationship as a loss of status or a personal defeat.
- He is vulnerable without using that vulnerability to manipulate.
Now, this is what a man (at least I) can see in the behavior of other men around me.
So, I can tell whether someone is genuine or fake, mature or toxic.
If women are the "experts" at recognizing these things and are attentive to detail, they could probably make an even longer list than this one. But honestly.. should they?
My perspective on this is as follows:
In a world where nature has hardwired women to prioritize survival, tell me: why should they choose the mature man?
Women often feel that the ideal man, the one who will protect them (and their children), is actually the toxic one. They see him conquering everything with his lack of morals, especially in modern society, where you have to trample on others if you want to succeed and "survive." Yet, deep down, they know that the man they would actually like to be with is the mature one, because he makes them feel truly heard, while helping them grow as women.
So, can we say that women's preference for men with toxic traits is actually a preference for being with the strongest man, even when a woman senses that being with him isn't good for her? Is it simply that he possesses the means (aggression, deceit, abuse) to dominate other men and secure resources?
This is something a mature man struggles to do if he upholds his own morality, self-control, and values.
And it's just not in their nature to do so.
This is just my opinion.
Regardless of whether a woman is healthy, kind, respectful, hardworking, and a good partner and mother, or a toxic individual,unhealthy, stingy, disrespectful, and lazy,both types share a tendency (almost like an innate biological drive) to choose and stay with a man who can exploit the world and the people in it. They are drawn to a man who uses whatever unscrupulous means necessary to protect her, because it proves to her that he can ensure her survival. But the first, will find one who is able to maintain a respectable/positive social image, while the latter won't really care about that.
(This seems to hold true for young women; however, as time goes on, I notice that women may want a man to mature. Once the children are grown so, around age 45–50, they begin to desire a different kind of man: the mature one. Older men here might want to weigh in on this and comment their POV)
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