This could be the reason women want to be treated badly

[Pumax]

Hey guys, I’m determined to pursue this intuition and debate it with you.

We often complain about how women are bad, that there are no good women, only bad ones; that good women don’t exist, that they’re unicorns; that good girls don’t exist, that they’re all sluts, etc. In other words, we say that all women are like that.

That said, could there be something else behind it? Namely..

-- My thoughts:
Every woman wants to be treated the way her father treated her.

Or:

A woman will stay in a relationship with a man who treats her the way her father treated her.

Or, perhaps better:

A woman is likely to form a lasting bond with a man who can recreate the sense of safety, love, and emotional connection she first experienced through her relationship with her father.
--

This could explain why so many men have difficulties with women. Perhaps women are neither inherently good nor bad, but rather, much of it comes down to how their fathers treated them and how they experienced the world through that very first, and most important relationship with a man in their life.

Now, I realize this conclusion has its flaws. Maybe the woman in question is able to mature and become the opposite of what her mother was in her relationship with her father, or to overcome what her father did to her as a child. But honestly? .. I don’t know how true that is. A certain attraction to that type of treatment might remain within her forever and could be triggered by the right man.

This might suggest that many men who complain that women “want to be treated badly,” or say, “Treat her well and she’ll leave you; treat her badly and she’ll be yours forever,” have actually had distorted experiences with women who were attracted to being treated badly because their fathers treated them that way. In that case, those women may be searching for that particular treatment, or that particular man, that we on this forum would define as insecure, immature, and greedy.

I’d like to hear your opinions on the matter.



P.S. By “treat her well,” I don’t mean simply being a nice guy or a pushover. I mean being a good man while still having boundaries, a backbone, self-respect, etc, which is what we're on this forum for.

 

[quodlibet]

All women want men who treat them well. I wouldn't get so analytical about it. The factors that create someone's personality are extremely complex. It comes from a lifetime of personal experiences and genetics.

Even if what you say is true, that might only be 0.001% of what made her the way she is. So it's not worth thinking about it.

Guys who think "women like a--holes" have been hanging out on manosphere websites too long.

Anyone who wants to succeed at anything, whether in love or career, have to stop thinking in such simplistic black and white terms.

During the heydays of the PUA movement, guys thought of everything in terms of alphas vs betas. It's so stupid. But as it turns out, most people doing PUA stuff were neurodivergent. Neurodivergents tend to engage in strict black and white thinking so this alpha-beta dichotomy made sense even though it is useless in the real world.

The bottom line is, don't find simplistic ways to explain the world. Most women want nice guys, just not weak ones. Guys who know the difference will do well with women.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

It comes down to what they believe their self-worth is.

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Too much on thinking and overthinking, too little on actually doing. Arsh holes don't ever ask permission and don't even care. Therein, they'll at least accidentally get it right while an overthinker or socially conditioned 'nice guy' will get it right almost never.

"The factors that create someone's personality are extremely complex." I agree that they are more complex. There are also fundamental things that must exist. A sense of trust, desire, and connection. Both physically and mentally. How well you connect and how fast also have nuance. There are differences in a ONS, FWB or LTR.

Some people can learn what kind of man they 'need' to be based off of what they're seeking by focusing only on seeking that one thing. In my honest opinion, to be the best you can be with women, you'll discover more about them when you understand how they behave in each of those dynamics. Am I saying every man who wants a healthy and fulfilling LTR + family must definitely have 50 one night stands, have plates in order to be in an LTR? No.

I'm just saying if one has had those experiences, he will likely understand women better and the woman he winds up with in an LTR will benefit from this experience. He will also know enough about women why she is the one he wants over the others. The novelty of 'playing' for the sake of playing just isn't there. You bring the best of what you've learned, whatever that might be into your relationship.

 

[Slowhandluke]

Hey guys, I’m determined to pursue this intuition and debate it with you.

We often complain about how women are bad, that there are no good women, only bad ones; that good women don’t exist, that they’re unicorns; that good girls don’t exist, that they’re all sluts, etc. In other words, we say that all women are like that.

That said, could there be something else behind it? Namely..

-- My thoughts:
Every woman wants to be treated the way her father treated her.

Or:

A woman will stay in a relationship with a man who treats her the way her father treated her.

Or, perhaps better:

A woman is likely to form a lasting bond with a man who can recreate the sense of safety, love, and emotional connection she first experienced through her relationship with her father.
--

This could explain why so many men have difficulties with women. Perhaps women are neither inherently good nor bad, but rather, much of it comes down to how their fathers treated them and how they experienced the world through that very first, and most important relationship with a man in their life.

Now, I realize this conclusion has its flaws. Maybe the woman in question is able to mature and become the opposite of what her mother was in her relationship with her father, or to overcome what her father did to her as a child. But honestly? .. I don’t know how true that is. A certain attraction to that type of treatment might remain within her forever and could be triggered by the right man.

This might suggest that many men who complain that women “want to be treated badly,” or say, “Treat her well and she’ll leave you; treat her badly and she’ll be yours forever,” have actually had distorted experiences with women who were attracted to being treated badly because their fathers treated them that way. In that case, those women may be searching for that particular treatment, or that particular man, that we on this forum would define as insecure, immature, and greedy.

I’d like to hear your opinions on the matter.



P.S. By “treat her well,” I don’t mean simply being a nice guy or a pushover. I mean being a good man while still having boundaries, a backbone, self-respect, etc, which is what we're on this forum for.

doesn't matter... here is the most simplest view: women are for the most part emotional. Society allows women to ruin themselves and others easily. Male / female relationships are in general not doing well because women are given too much responsibility. A woman can be rational and cooperative 99.99% of the time, but that .001 % where her emotions take over and can seriously wreck a man or herself.

societies where women are given less responsibilities, everyone was generally more happy. A society that makes women know her nature, everyone is more happy. This has nothing to do with their fathers... The relationship with fathers could be good, but she could still be bad wife material. It only takes one instance to destroy a marriage or a relationship. Everything could be going well for years, and then the "tingles" dispear and she want more..

heck, her dad could probably be the one supporting her. "you dont feel the excitement with your husband. Well honey bunch, you probably should find another one". Bad or good relationship with dad doesn't help if the father doesn't understand relationships are hard and treats her like a princess... always agreeing to whatever her feelings want.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@Pumax "We often complain about how women are bad, that there are no good women, only bad ones; that good women don’t exist, that they’re unicorns; that good girls don’t exist, that they’re all sluts, etc. In other words, we say that all women are like that

That said, could there be something else behind it?"

Yeah, two things:

-We fling that word "good" around more frequently and ferociously than mountain gorillas hurl their own sh-t across a zoo exhibit, yet we seldom ask: "What specifically do we mean "good"? What does that look like in practice?" We do this not just women, but EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in our lives

-We forget that we ultimately have only the human race to work with, and we humans ultimately vacillate between being anti-heroes and outright villain protagonists. You'll encounter an NOPD officer who ISN'T irreversibly corrupt, before you stumble across an RL equivalent of June Cleaver, who was a white washed depiction of womanhood

even back in the day

 

[BadBoy89]

A woman is likely to form a lasting bond with a man who can recreate the sense of safety, love, and emotional connection she first experienced through her relationship with her father.

This could explain why so many men have difficulties with women.

I think a man's lack of being 6'1 explains why men have difficulties with women.

 

[plumber]

for sure dad and mom have an impact on kids. it could not be any other way.

lots of kids raised by single mothers (widow, divorce, abandon, just wild..). its not the single mother usually that is the issue its the rotation of men with the single mother that the kid experience.

your right, father has big impact on child development. much more than typical social and medical models admit.

no one wants to be treated badly. but... in some cases bad treatment is normal for the person. they look to return to what is familiar as even if its bad... it feels safe due to wanting something that is "normal" for them. complicated stuff, but real.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I don't think it necessarily has to be a woman's father who abused her or treated her poorly, it's the primary caregiver.

It could have been her mother if mom was the primary caregiver in which case she will subconsciously choose men similar to her mom because (1) it's familiar and (2) in an attempt to subconsciously fix the toxic relationship with mom through her relationship with her boyfriend.

It doesn't work though, speaking from experience.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@plumber "for sure dad and mom have an impact on kids. it could not be any other way"

We ultimately decide the degree to which outside actors affect our thinking and behaviors

 

[zekko]

This could explain why so many men have difficulties with women. Perhaps women are neither inherently good nor bad, but rather, much of it comes down to how their fathers treated them and how they experienced the world through that very first, and most important relationship with a man in their life.

I think you are on to something here, I think there's some truth in that.

And when it comes to wanting the best men, maybe it comes from seeing their fathers as superheroes (as well as instinctively wanting the best genetics). Sort of like men want angelic women, if they saw their mother that way.

 

[Pandora]

I believe we have it backwards. Women dont necessarily want to be treated badly. Its just that they accept the bad behavior from " high smv" men. Or what they consider high smv.

Its like when women say men like bytches. No we dont like bytches. Its just that we take bad behavior from hot bytches because they are hot.

Women like hot men IN SPITE of bad behavior. Now of course there is more nuance to this. Many women are masochistic to a degree depending on her self esteem, level of childhood trauma etc.

 

[plumber]

@plumber "for sure dad and mom have an impact on kids. it could not be any other way"

We ultimately decide the degree to which outside actors affect our thinking and behaviors

very respectfully, disagree. a baby at zero years old does not choose. when do they choose ? where do they learn ? who arranges or fails to arrange for the learning. even older.. i get the idea that we should be responsible for ourself and not blame others. this is a special case however. as we make choices we look at the patterns we know (we can do nothing else as we don't know what we don't know).

every time i hear a parent tell that they don't know what happened to that kid, my gut turns inside out. they should know and or should have invested the time to find out. no excuse. well sure an excuse of mental illness, or other dramatic tragedy maybe are exceptions.

we can not choose what we do not know. shall a parent allow youtube to raise the kid, or to allow the school system to do it ? or the next door people or the uncle or the other men on the street.... of course they don't know what happened because they did not do the masculine thing and take care of business. alpha men take care of the others, starting with there own blood.

 

[plumber]

I don't think it necessarily has to be a woman's father who abused her or treated her poorly, it's the primary caregiver.

It could have been her mother if mom was the primary caregiver in which case she will subconsciously choose men similar to her mom because (1) it's familiar and (2) in an attempt to subconsciously fix the toxic relationship with mom through her relationship with her boyfriend.

It doesn't work though, speaking from experience.

your right. there are plenty of mom issues that mess kids up. probably even more common than it being the dad. the idea is the man should balance that if he is on point. unless she is a widow i still put some responsibility on the dad.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I don't think it necessarily has to be a woman's father who abused her or treated her poorly, it's the primary caregiver.

It could have been her mother if mom was the primary caregiver in which case she will subconsciously choose men similar to her mom because (1) it's familiar and (2) in an attempt to subconsciously fix the toxic relationship with mom through her relationship with her boyfriend.

It doesn't work though, speaking from experience.

This is definitely a large part of it, but I don't always think this has to be the case. Some people just have low self-esteem/self-worth due to their makeup and mentality that doesn't really have much to do with this.

But your scenario (and as @plumber pointed out with it being the Mom as well), is the most common by far.

 

[Bigpapa]

Hey guys, I’m determined to pursue this intuition and debate it with you.

We often complain about how women are bad, that there are no good women, only bad ones; that good women don’t exist, that they’re unicorns; that good girls don’t exist, that they’re all sluts, etc. In other words, we say that all women are like that.

That said, could there be something else behind it? Namely..

-- My thoughts:
Every woman wants to be treated the way her father treated her.

Or:

A woman will stay in a relationship with a man who treats her the way her father treated her.

Or, perhaps better:

A woman is likely to form a lasting bond with a man who can recreate the sense of safety, love, and emotional connection she first experienced through her relationship with her father.
--

This could explain why so many men have difficulties with women. Perhaps women are neither inherently good nor bad, but rather, much of it comes down to how their fathers treated them and how they experienced the world through that very first, and most important relationship with a man in their life.

Now, I realize this conclusion has its flaws. Maybe the woman in question is able to mature and become the opposite of what her mother was in her relationship with her father, or to overcome what her father did to her as a child. But honestly? .. I don’t know how true that is. A certain attraction to that type of treatment might remain within her forever and could be triggered by the right man.

This might suggest that many men who complain that women “want to be treated badly,” or say, “Treat her well and she’ll leave you; treat her badly and she’ll be yours forever,” have actually had distorted experiences with women who were attracted to being treated badly because their fathers treated them that way. In that case, those women may be searching for that particular treatment, or that particular man, that we on this forum would define as insecure, immature, and greedy.

I’d like to hear your opinions on the matter.



P.S. By “treat her well,” I don’t mean simply being a nice guy or a pushover. I mean being a good man while still having boundaries, a backbone, self-respect, etc, which is what we're on this forum for.

All women want a nice guy in theory, but in practice they respond to their traumas

and traumas are not necessarily real traumas, but more like things that happened to them and due to ego/anxiety they did not process it properly

from my experience, most women are avoidant to a lesser and greater extent. Being avoidant can be explained by her childhood ( sh1tty parents ) but I think that most of it comes from their relationships with men

women just usually process a heartbrake or being pumped and dumped by becoming avoidant, which is basically their ego taking control and usually when they see something that feels good they start shutting down emotionally

that is why good guys finish last, because they are shut down by the self protection mechanisms which overrides logic in the very vast majority of cases

that is why f8ck boys are doing better, because they usually do not rely on rapport but more on the sexual side of things and they move fast

the more time you spend with a woman that has avoidant tendencies, the higher the chances that she will not sleep with you

sure, a nice guy can sometimes end up being in a relationship with women, but it will usually be on her terms and hence why we have a lot of stories about sh1tty ltrs

because if you are a nice guy and have boundaries, then you will not pass the self defense system that the ego has created to prevent feeling hurt

For guys, they usually cope with traumas by becoming to a lesser or a greater extent sociopaths

 

[Pandora]

All women want a nice guy in theory, but in practice they respond to their traumas

and traumas are not necessarily real traumas, but more like things that happened to them and due to ego/anxiety they did not process it properly

from my experience, most women are avoidant to a lesser and greater extent. Being avoidant can be explained by her childhood ( sh1tty parents ) but I think that most of it comes from their relationships with men

women just usually process a heartbrake or being pumped and dumped by becoming avoidant, which is basically their ego taking control and usually when they see something that feels good they start shutting down emotionally

that is why good guys finish last, because they are shut down by the self protection mechanisms which overrides logic in the very vast majority of cases

that is why f8ck boys are doing better, because they usually do not rely on rapport but more on the sexual side of things and they move fast

the more time you spend with a woman that has avoidant tendencies, the higher the chances that she will not sleep with you

sure, a nice guy can sometimes end up being in a relationship with women, but it will usually be on her terms and hence why we have a lot of stories about sh1tty ltrs

because if you are a nice guy and have boundaries, then you will not pass the self defense system that the ego has created to prevent feeling hurt

For guys, they usually cope with traumas by becoming to a lesser or a greater extent sociopaths

Yes this is true. True emotional intimacy is scary to avoident damaged women. They rather be objectified. Objectification is not true intimacy. Its shallow. Its safe and predictable.

 

[Bigpapa]

Yes this is true. True emotional intimacy is scary to avoident damaged women. They rather be objectified. Objectification is not true intimacy. Its shallow. Its safe and predictable.

it’s not necessarily that they want to be objectified, it is more about that it is much easier for them to go with the flow when they are unsure if they like you as a person or not

 

[BaronOfHair]

@plumber "should a parent allow youtube to raise the kid"

We were allowing TV to raise our kids for decades prior to YT coming along, and the world didn't stop turning as a result

More seriously, to your overall point:

A baby with no capacity for speech and little for movement can't be held responsible, fine. Given that 5 year olds-all points older have the capacity for introspection/self-reflection though https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/toddlers-are-capable-introspection , we cannot with any degree of honesty continue to assert that their behavior is MOSTLY the result of sh-t they witnessed at home

Pre-K bullies on the playground begin to behave in a more pro-social fashion, the moment they encounter someone who can inflict serious damage on them... That means they recognize that their prior behavior towards those unlikely to return fire was jerrky/immoral/dishonorable, etc etc, even if they didn't necessarily have words to describe their antics as such

 

[plumber]

@plumber "should a parent allow youtube to raise the kid"

We were allowing TV to raise our kids for decades prior to YT coming along, and the world didn't stop turning as a result

More seriously, to your overall point:

A baby with no capacity for speech and little for movement can't be held responsible, fine. Given that 5 year olds-all points older have the capacity for introspection/self-reflection though https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/toddlers-are-capable-introspection , we cannot with any degree of honesty continue to assert that their behavior is MOSTLY the result of sh-t they witnessed at home

Pre-K bullies on the playground begin to behave in a more pro-social fashion, the moment they encounter someone who can inflict serious damage on them... That means they recognize that their prior behavior towards those unlikely to return fire was jerrky/immoral/dishonorable, etc etc, even if they didn't necessarily have words to describe their antics as such

agree. i think the parent(s) should know or find out about what is going on and assist or guide as needed. the self introspection has to use tools available. can't find an idea that does not have any context. its adapted from what does exist.

its really the parent(s). trace cause and effect back, its the parents.

if the toddler is learning bad stuff, why is the toddler in that situation.... and the parent does not know what is happening... that's the crime. and often, very often the parent does sort of know and lets it slide.... with perhaps an excuse that the kids needs to learn to be stronger... or investing time is not convenient at just that moment.

the brain continues to adapt and grow well past 20 years old... with final adaptions as late at 35... parents should mentor children as long as possible. for example; you know stuff now that could have really helped you when your younger.

everything that the child does is directly the fault of the parent, everything. doesn't even exist without the parent. the models, the guides, everything. genetics are involved, and the parent can observe that also and guide as needed. many parents do the minimum and only ensure survival as per the laws.... looking for legal and moral defense instead of taking care of business.

i get it. none of it is easy...