The new Michael Jackson documentary

Atom Smasher

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I’m surprise no one has brought this up yet. What did you guys think of Leaving Neverland?

These guys certainly seem to be telling the truth, as they seem to have a deep grasp on harboring this kind of guilt and shame for all those years. It’s interesting to see how these two star-struck women F’d up their entire families the way they did.

What say you guys about MJ? Guilty or innocent?
 

HoneyHitter

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What’s the point? The man is already dead. They had a chance to tell the “truth” when he was alive, but didn’t do it in the court of law. The only people to benefit from all of this are those making a living selling stories.
 

Atom Smasher

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The point is precisely that it’s not so simple for children who were molested to “come clean” and confront their abuser. There are complex psychological factors in play.

There is often deep shame, guilt, self-blame and social repercussions both publicly and within the family.

The adult knows it was wrong and unnatural, but he still has the childhood experience in his memory of being assured there was nothing wrong with it. This is especially true in a troubled family where the outside abuser is showing the victim acceptance and “affection”.

A massive conflict builds year after year until the person is able to define and confront it.

These things are not so cut and dried. Childhood trauma can take a lifetime to reconcile, if and when it can be reconciled at all.

The pressure on these kids to deny what happened was enormous.
 

eli77

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The point is precisely that it’s not so simple for children who were molested to “come clean” and confront their abuser. There are complex psychological factors in play.

There is often deep shame, guilt, self-blame and social repercussions both publicly and within the family.

The adult knows it was wrong and unnatural, but he still has the childhood experience in his memory of being assured there was nothing wrong with it. This is especially true in a troubled family where the outside abuser is showing the victim acceptance and “affection”.

A massive conflict builds year after year until the person is able to define and confront it.

These things are not so cut and dried. Childhood trauma can take a lifetime to reconcile, if and when it can be reconciled at all.

The pressure on these kids to deny what happened was enormous.
I agree a little to late
 

taiyuu_otoko

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These guys certainly seem to be telling the truth, as they seem to have a deep grasp on harboring this kind of guilt and shame for all those years. It’s interesting to see how these two star-struck women F’d up their entire families the way they did.

That sh*t is par for the course in the entertainment industry.

Tons of child porn, pedophilia, and all kinds of horrific sh*t.

The worst part is tons of parents would WILLINGLY pimp out their kids if it meant and easy payday.
 

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Atom Smasher

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Yup. Bottom line is that I blame the parents. Anybody who grabs his crotch and thrusts during concerts in which kids are in attendance and also in which kids are participants, should not be left alone with kids. I never read anything about Michael’s crotch grabbing at his concerts. Like I said, he was performing for and with kids.
 

zekko

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I saw the first part of this. It sounds like the parents got seduced just as much (or more) than the kids. They got to live the high life, traveling first class, staying in Michael's guest houses, having Michael's staff wait on them and cook for them.

One thing I never thought about before seeing this, when it comes to molested children: The kids (now men) descriptions of how they felt when Michael moved on to the next boy, and how they felt abandoned, rejected, and "no longer #1". It sounded almost like someone being left by their oneitis. Which makes sense, since the children are emotionally immature and vulnerable. I don't know the mechanism whereby being molested messes up a kid's/person's life, but I had never thought about that particular aspect before.

I don't want to make any judgements on Michael Jackson's guilt or not on this, but the stories these kids sounded genuine to me. They were very detailed, and seemed to make sense in the context of what they were describing. And I didn't get any bad or odd vibes that they were lying.
 

Atom Smasher

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Like I said to a buddy of mine, I would have liked to have seen their stories without the music and the edited pacing. All of that affects perception.

I wonder if they would have come across the same.

I did watch a few YouTube videos with body language “experts” pointing out certain things regarding the accusers, implying they are not being totally honest, but at the end of the day, who knows?

Although usually where there is smoke, there is fire, we will never be able to be 100% certain as to what really happened. Every time I think these allegations must be true, another part of me realizes that there is a reasonable doubt.

The whole sordid tale involves sick, twisted people. Michael was a very damaged guy, and the families that bonded with him were at the very least blind to the potential dangers because they were so enamored of being accepted and loved by an entertainer of MJ’s unequalled stature. I have the feeling that the two mothers at first were enthralled and attracted to Michael, but gradually fell into motherhood rolls. I think Michael brought out the motherly instinct in women. I would know as I was always that way until 15 years ago.

At any rate, show biz (and indeed, most areas of life) always distilled down to ego.
 

zekko

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I did watch a few YouTube videos with body language “experts” pointing out certain things regarding the accusers, implying they are not being totally honest, but at the end of the day, who knows?
Really? That surprises me, I didn't get the impression that they were lying at all, although maybe I'm gullible. I did think that maybe they weren't telling the whole story, that there were little things they were keeping to themselves, maybe to make themselves look better, or to hide things they didn't figure anyone else needed to know. But the overall stories sounded like they made sense.

And they both said that Michael would tell them "This is how we express our love", and how he emphasized keeping it secret.

Those kids were good dancers, though.

I have the feeling that the two mothers at first were enthralled and attracted to Michael
I especially got that impression with the Australian mother, the one who would have the long telephone conversations with him, and traded faxes with him. They said she had her own separate relationship with Michael, I almost got the impression she had a small crush on him at the time. But as much as the celebrity, I think they were overwhelmed by the "life of the rich and famous", I mean it didn't sound like they had to pay for anything.

But then you've got Mucauley Culkin and the other kid (can't remember his name), they still say nothing happened. Maybe they just don't want to talk about it, or maybe nothing happened with them, who knows? I still have to watch the second part.
 

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The challenge I have is that we were presented the story with music and edited pacing. Both of these things have a vast potential to alter the viewers' perception.

I had a few minutes today and I decided to watch a few concert performances from the early 90s. Who did I see dancing in the troupe but Wade himself in most of those (as a young adult). Makes me wonder if he was really as alienated from Michael as he conveyed.

Yeas, Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman. Maybe MJ wasn't going to mess around with famous kids as a rule for fear of getting caught. Or maybe the powers that be warned him off of them. Corey Feldman is on the warpath about sexual abuse, so it's significant that he sees MJ as innocent.

This is one case where I really do wish we could find the absolute truth. If he is guilty, he deserves for his reputation to be dragged through the mud. But if he's innocent, this is a travesty.

As is often the case, perhaps the truth is somewhere in between the extremes, which of course is just as bad.

As a musician, I do my own rendition of "Man in the Mirror", which audiences really respond well to. I'd hate to retire it, but I may have to.

@zekko , let me know what you think after watching part 2.
 

FairShake

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I watched Wade Robson and Jim Safechuck during the documentary and I saw two damaged young men reopening their deepest wounds. They certainly seemed convincing enough if you watch it but, admittedly I was already convinced. Plus the beauty of editing could convince me Michael Jackson was a White woman if it's done right.

The most telling part was Michael's alleged faxes to Wade Robson and an "interview" he had with Safechuck on a private trip they had to Hawaii. The faxes are essentially love notes that I might have written to a girl I had a crush on when I was 12 and the interview is pure infatuation at it's best. If you guys take a look at the doc these are the only times in the piece you actually hear from Michael Jackson in a pure and unencumbered format and game recognize game he was wooing these kids like the beta of old.
 

zekko

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Corey Feldman is another one but Brett Barnes was the kid I was thinking about. There was a perception around the time of the allegations that Michael wouldn't mess with rich and famous kids, but would take advantage of the poor families. Built in denial there with "Oh, they're just wanting money".

Obviously I find this story interesting, but I don't really care if MJ is guilty or innocent. He's dead, and it doesn't change anything. Whatever happened, happened. Besides, he had a very unusual upbringing himself, who could relate to it? Who knows how it affected him? Walk a mile in someone's moccasins and all that.

I'd keep Man on the Mirror in your repertoire. I still think Bill Cosby is the best standup comedian ever, even though he looks pretty guilty.

By the way, in the early 90s, Wade would have been around 10-13 years old.
 

Bible_Belt

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Besides, he had a very unusual upbringing himself, who could relate to it? Who knows how it affected him? Walk a mile in someone's moccasins and all that.
Child molesters are not born, they are made, when they are victims themselves as children. That is just how it works. All those priests used to be altar boys. A guy doesn't just decide to fvck a little kid. I don't even think that is possible without having once been a victim. But no one wants to talk about that, because it makes child molesters seem human, and it also implies that maybe we ought to pay attention to the lives of victims in the future, so they don't turn into predators themselves, and that is way too forward-thinking for society to handle.
 
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The documentary did mention that he had a growth spurt at 14 and was Michael's height or taller, so maybe it was around that time.

Don't tell me you would still buy Jello Pudding Pops?!?!

I always liked Cosby until I saw his ultra-creepy interaction with Sofia Vergara on a talk show. Never cared much for that 80s show of his though. I did like his standup (or sitdown) very much.
 

zekko

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I always liked Cosby until I saw his ultra-creepy interaction with Sofia Vergara on a talk show. Never cared much for that 80s show of his though.
I remember seeing Cosby on the Tonight Show (with Johnny Carson) many years ago, and he kept going on about Sister Sledge also being on the show, like he wanted to eat them like Pudding Pops. That was my first inkling that there was something creepy going on with him.

The Cosby Show was just okay, I thought. I thought it was unfair that he took a lot of criticism because it depicted a black family that was well off (the parents were a lawyer and a doctor). The criticism was from black people who wanted the struggles of black people depicted. But he wanted to set an example that black people could be successful, to me that's a much better message.

I saw a recent documentary on Sammy Davis Jr., and he also received a lot of similar criticism, because he was successful in what was perceived to be a white world of entertainment. In his mind, he was setting an example and showing everybody that black people could be talented and successful, but some people of his own race didn't like it. They also didn't like his politics, but that's a separate issue.
 

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The Cosby Show was like The Jeffersons in that it depicted the cultural attitudes of the 1980s, such as belief in the American dream. Poor people are poor because they don't want to work hard enough. The Jeffersons couldnt be a show today, because no one would buy the idea of a black, self made entrepreneur from Harlem. We were all a lot more optimistic in the 80s.
 

rando5495

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Child molesters are not born, they are made, when they are victims themselves as children. That is just how it works. All those priests used to be altar boys. A guy doesn't just decide to fvck a little kid. I don't even think that is possible without having once been a victim. But no one wants to talk about that, because it makes child molesters seem human, and it also implies that maybe we ought to pay attention to the lives of victims in the future, so they don't turn into predators themselves, and that is way too forward-thinking for society to handle.
That's the typical leftist drivel. Pedos are victims and christianity (as a specific easy target religion) is to blame.

Watched a video of vigilantes dealing with them, and saw nothing of the sort. Saw a lot of degeneracy, special needs, omega males (older definition), and so on.

The Cosby Show was like The Jeffersons in that it depicted the cultural attitudes of the 1980s, such as belief in the American dream. Poor people are poor because they don't want to work hard enough. The Jeffersons couldnt be a show today, because no one would buy the idea of a black, self made entrepreneur from Harlem. We were all a lot more optimistic in the 80s.
More leftist drivel.

I grew up as an Englishman on American Nickelodian with "my wife and kids", "keenan and kel", "moesha", "sister sister", and so on. And it's not even my culture lol
 

Bible_Belt

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That's the typical leftist drivel. Pedos are victims and christianity (as a specific easy target religion) is to blame.

Watched a video of vigilantes dealing with them, and saw nothing of the sort. Saw a lot of degeneracy, special needs, omega males (older definition), and so on.



More leftist drivel.

I grew up as an Englishman on American Nickelodian with "my wife and kids", "keenan and kel", "moesha", "sister sister", and so on. And it's not even my culture lol
Jesus basically said chomos should go kill themselves. "Corrupt a little child" is how he put it, but the Bible tends to be subtle.

I would support court-ordered castration of the worst offenders and lifetime tracking of today's victims. Both of those ideas are way too far to the right to ever happen.

And of course culture of the time is reflected in tv shows. Breaking Bad would never have been made in the 1980s. Getting cancer with no healthcare and turning to a life of crime wasn't plausible in the 80s.
 
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