The Great Irony of the SMV theory

[Lexington]

Stagger, just because you aged badly doesn't mean that a lot of guys can't look great in their 30s. I do agree that a lot of guys' appearances deteriorate after their mid 20s but the majority of the American adult population lives a horrible lifestyle. This is why most American adults are overweight and a shockingly high percentage are obese.

The whole reason that guys come to this website is because they don't want to be (presumably) like most guys. Most guys rarely approach. Most guys rarely study the finer details of attracting women. Most guys are content to wait for the right circumstances to present themselves instead of proactively creating them. Most guys don't reach anywhere near their potential.

If you're a 35 year old "average" guy, chances are you've got at least a little bit of a gut. Your bad lifestyle choices are beginning to manifest. You're probably making $35-50k or so. You might live in a respectable apartment/house and drive a decent car. You've probably never seriously attempted to learn about the finer details about Game. You rarely if ever do approaches.

If you're the Mature DJ that we all aspire to be, you spent much of your 20s learning and practicing Game/pickup. You've done thousands of approaches and learned from your experiences. You cultivated your hobbies. You also spent countless hours working out. You ate right. Years of healthy living are clearly visible in your physique and your vitality. You also worked your ass off to establish a great career or to start a business.

But like I said, it's easier to just throw your hands up and say "well, all of this is just bullsh*t.....you're either born with it or not." Making excuses is easier than putting in the work.

 

[zekko]

This whole subject kind of reminds me of what they say about women and "the wall". How they have to lock down a good man by the time they're 30 or poof their looks vanish, their value drops, and they can't find one anymore.

Yes, appearance matters. Yes, age matters. Yes, money matters. Yes, occupational status matters. Yes, height matters. Yes, your foot odor matters.

All these things and more matter. All of them. And more.

Nobody is saying they don't. Nobody has said they don't. Nobody will say they don't.

To be fair to Stagger Lee, pickup gurus and their followers were saying looks don't matter not all that long ago. It's all part of the sales pitch to buy PUA products. I remember a time here when your thread would get locked if you even discussed the topic of looks. The attitude about looks has changed a lot here over the past several years. Now I think that the pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that there is currently too much emphasis on looks.

I like your approach of saying everything matters though. I think that is true.

 

[SL2012]

If you're a 35 year old "average" guy, chances are you've got at least a little bit of a gut. Your bad lifestyle choices are beginning to manifest.


Bingo! It amazes me how out of shape and "average" guys my age (36) and 5-8 years younger are. They are my motivation to keep working hard and eating right.

If you want to get younger women in your 30's, looking fit is a MUST!

 

[Zarky]

To be fair to Stagger Lee, pickup gurus and their followers were saying looks don't matter not all that long ago. It's all part of the sales pitch to buy PUA products.

I never got that, even from the most rabid PU material sales guys.

To me, what they were saying was: "Looks don't matter as far as how you should conduct yourself." That is to say, don't let your own looks matter to you.

To say that looks don't matter at all to women is as absurd as saying looks are the only thing that matters to women. It's black-and-white thinking which really stunts people's growth. It's simply intellectually lazy.

Any time I see black and white thinking on forums I point it out and ridicule it. It should be ridiculed. It's an impediment to obtaining knowledge about the world.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Being fit and lean is part of it, not just to get younger girls but any girls. I've always been lean, athletic build and looked younger than my age. The problem I have mainly is hair thinning on top.

Not being fit will get you rejected but being fit is not a guarantee of doing anything. The reason is your face-proportions and symmetry, healthy and youthful skin, hair etc and your facial expressions- is very important in attraction. You can have a half dozen things about you that are good enough or even above average but ONE thing subpar can disqualify you. An average or below face on a good body won't accomplish much.

 

[London NATURAL]

Newbie 1st post here, although I'm a long time lurker on these sort of forums.

Registered primarily to post here. Surely it's about attitude guys. Winners / loosers, alphas /betas?

(attractive, fit 43yr young chap, temporarily knocked my other plates off, whilst focusing on a work project and 30yr old cutie. One'itis maybe )

 

[zekko]

I never got that, even from the most rabid PU material sales guys.

To me, what they were saying was: "Looks don't matter as far as how you should conduct yourself." That is to say, don't let your own looks matter to you.

I saw an old video of Tyler from RSD fairly recently saying something along the lines of "Guys, looks don't matter, they really don't, I know so and so and he's ugly but he knows game and the women adore him".

I remember hearing a lot of stuff years ago about how women were programmed to respond to behavior, not looks. They couldn't help themselves. Facial symmetry didn't help catch the mammoth burgers for the cavewomen, that sort of thing. I think now days the gurus have modified this sort of thinking along the lines of "Looks don't matter, BUT...".

Any time I see black and white thinking on forums I point it out and ridicule it. It should be ridiculed. It's an impediment to obtaining knowledge about the world.

I don't like the black and white thinking either, and I think it should be ridiculed. I've noticed that if you point it out however, people start hating on you. They don't want their vision of the "matrix" to be disturbed.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The thing is I don't see where those that say looks/appearance causes attraction are being black and white. For starters your personality/game is also largely based on appearance.

Black and white thinking to me is saying personality/game is entirely separate from looks/appearance. Personality at best mostly can get people to like you, make friends, keep a relationship together, *or keep you from screwing up what your looks made available to you* but it does not cause sexual attraction.

Besides that, looks believers almost all acknowledge women are attracted to status/value (great wealth, fame, power and influence) and to a good degree independent of a guy's looks. But what they don't believe is that personality/game itself creates value to speak of.

 

[Scormus]

"Status" can make you handsome.

 

[Lexington]

I'll put it to you like this: Game = marketing.

You can have a fantastic product, but it's not going to make you money if people don't know about it; it needs to be marketed. Of course, if your product just plain sucks, people just aren't going to buy it even with the best marketing.

Take BMW/Mercedes for example. They definitely make some very well-engineered cars. But a big part of their success is promoting them as status symbols and projecting a cool/sexy image.

Take Apple. They make great products....I use several of them. But there's no denying that promoting their stuff as being "cool" played a significant role in their success. Don't think marketing works? Then why do companies spend so much money on it?

 

[samspade]

Black and white thinking to me is saying personality/game is entirely separate from looks/appearance. Personality at best mostly can get people to like you, make friends, keep a relationship together, *or keep you from screwing up what your looks made available to you* but it does not cause sexual attraction.

You're right that they are not entirely separate. Your attractiveness to females will be some combination of game, status, looks, and resources/wealth.

Personality does not necessarily cause sexual attraction, but neither will looks necessarily. Game can do it and it is the fastest way from A to B. You can spend months losing weight, money on a new wardrobe or a makeover, years studying or slaving to amass wealth or become famous, and you may attract women that way. But any man who spends some time on Game will get results. Having an outgoing personality or a Type A personality is great, but personality isn't Game. Having an interesting life isn't Game. Having a handsome face isn't Game.

How you talk to women, what thoughts and fantasies you prompt in them, what behaviors you influence, how you project yourself around them and how you react to their tests - that's Game. Game isn't "Looks." Unless you consider body language and eye contact part of your physical endowment....but that's really stretching things.

Like Lex said, it's salesmanship. Granted some people do buy products based on appearance alone, but I agree that it's the feelings elicited in advertising that make those iMacs and BMWs look even sexier shall we say. (Channeling my inner Don Draper.) Packaging matters, but without advertising, it only goes so far.

 

[cordoncordon]

I have been following this thread but haven't written in it until now as I enjoyed just reading everyone's opinions on things. Congrats to everyone here for keeping this thread mainly on topic and to everyone for keeping it pretty civil even with a difference of opinion. Lots of good info here.

I don't have too much of an opinion about the topic other than to say I became much better at learning how to handle women in my 30's then in my 20's, and I would guess that holds true for most of the guys here. So as a result, my success rate went way up as well. Other factors have helped too such as being able to commit more time to women, wealth, and staying in shape (actually better shape) of course.

Now, with BB talking about the average guy, with average game, with an average build, an average income, and average status? Then yep I agree with him. It will get harder for that guy to attract decent women the older he gets.

Aging can actually be a nice little selling bonus factor for a man when a woman perceives that older man to be "handsome", "mature", "together", "financially set", etc, and not like all of the immature emo boys she sees around. A man like that is someone she can look up to and he would have her respect. But if a woman just sees you as some older guy with no other perceived value? Where you are just average in almost every conceivable way? Then you are just what BB said, an older "creep" and aging becomes a detriment.

 

[SteR]

Now, with BB talking about the average guy, with average game, with an average build, an average income, and average status? Then yep I agree with him. It will get harder for that guy to attract decent women the older he gets.

..But if a woman just sees you as some older guy with no other perceived value? Where you are just average in almost every conceivable way? Then you are just what BB said, an older "creep" and aging becomes a detriment.

But when you think about it, how can it be any other way? Why on earth would any moderately attractive woman desire a man that doesn't take care of himself, has very little resources and has no noticeable value?

If you look at it from a purely biological perspective (ie. consider the amount of time/effort it takes for a woman to give birth) then surely it's in their best interests to go for the best mate they can? ie. a man that will give good genes to her child and be there to provide the resources for the raising of said child?

It's ridiculous to think you can be sloppy and still demand a woman's attention... it's such a lazy approach. If you really want to draw a woman's attention then of course you should be expected to put in the effort to raise your value. I wouldn't expect anything else..

 

[thefonz]

This is a great thread, and something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

I came to this site when I was 22 and read everything I could get my hands on but the truth is I did not anticipate what it would be like to try to apply pickup past my 20's. I'm not going to give out book-inspired generalizations on this, but I'll tell you what I've discovered in my own experience as a single 30-something.

First...the cons: Truth be told, if you thought cold approaching was tough in your 20's than wait for your 30's. If you choose to take this route, be prepared for the increase of rejections. The anxiety is not nearly as bad, but the limiting beliefs are what really gets you. When I was younger I always thought I could cold approach for the rest of my life, but I didn't fully understand it beyond the thought of "If I keep my skills sharp, looks don't matter." Yes and no.

After you do enough of this stuff, you start to lose interest. You're not going to chase a girl for 2 weeks when you have a REAL job and a much less energy because of that. A hangover from Saturday lasts until noontime Monday so you must remove drunken hookups from the equation. It can be done, but try to be a successful 30-something and spend your time sober around drunks all weekend. It's depressing as ****.

Then add to the fact that EVERYONE at the age of 30 starts getting married/having kids. It's ****ed up. I can't even go on facebook anymore because it's rubbed in my face. Can you deal with that? Also, if you're here I'm assuming you have some degree of family issues so people around you will wonder why you aren't married/having kids yet no matter how successful you are. Be prepared to deal with that as well.

Ok enough of that, now the pros: Did you take care of your body in your 20's? Thankfully, I did and now I can compensate for any kind of baldness and have minimized my aging. Have you created a goal-oriented mindset and discipline of something in your 20's? That will help you stay focused. Did you invest in your career? Now you can put that money into things you actually like to do!

Before I start to write a novel, my point of this is you have to adjust. You're not young, but you're not old either. If you're a creative, self-aware, and thoughtful person you should not have any trouble getting girls.

I'd also like to add that we romanticize our past sometimes and think we were total players when we were younger but in reality it was mostly painful and awkward.

 

[Zarky]

if you thought cold approaching was tough in your 20's than wait for your 30's.

That's only if you choose to continue to "cold approach" women who are in their 20s. In my (limited) experience I've found that a 30-something guy cold-approaching a 30-something girl has a much higher likelihood of a lay than a 20-something guy cold-approaching a 20-something girl. Assuming you don't see a wedding ring, of course.

After you do enough of this stuff, you start to lose interest.

That's true. It's more that you get used to it and don't think as much of it. Dating, I'm referring to.

You're not going to chase a girl for 2 weeks when you have a REAL job and a much less energy because of that.

I'm not sure I would have ever chased a girl for 2 weeks.

A hangover from Saturday lasts until noontime Monday so you must remove drunken hookups from the equation.

whoaaa, buddy. You're 31 and you get that wrecked from drinking? Maybe when you're 51 that happens, but nobody I know in their 30s or even 40s has that much trouble with booze.

It can be done, but try to be a successful 30-something and spend your time sober around drunks all weekend. It's depressing as ****.

Sounds like you have some issues with alcohol.

Then add to the fact that EVERYONE at the age of 30 starts getting married/having kids. It's ****ed up. I can't even go on facebook anymore because it's rubbed in my face. Can you deal with that?

Ummm.. what exactly is "rubbed in your face?" That there are a bunch of beta/gamma shmucks out there who can only get laid if they put a ring on a girl's finger? Sounds like you have some sort of sad unfulfilled desire to be a husband.

Also, if you're here I'm assuming you have some degree of family issues

Don't lay your trip on us! I come from a loving, well-adjusted family. My folks are still together after 47 years and I'm quite close with them as well as my extended family. There is almost no drama whatsoever. No alcoholics, drug abusers, jailbirds, absent fathers, etc. So don't assume that everyone here has "issues."

so people around you will wonder why you aren't married/having kids yet no matter how successful you are. Be prepared to deal with that as well.

Again, the fact that you give a sh*t about what people may or may not think says more about you than anyone here. Nobody I know even questions why I'm not married with kids. I take that back. About 10 years ago one of my aunts said, "So when are you going to give your parents some grandkids?" I laughed and said, "Not any time soon!" That was the last time anybody -- family or friend -- questioned me about my marital choices.

Yours was actually a very interesting post. With all your talk about "success" and married people "rubbing your face in" the fact that you're unmarried, it really sounds like you've swallowed completely the western middle-class idea of what a man's life should be. Work hard, be productive, have a wife and kids, contribute to society in some material way... I've never felt the need to ape that lifestyle. That's why I believe I'm having a great time as a single man approaching his 40s whereas you can't even go on facebook anymore because you're so ashamed about not having a wife and 2.2 kids.

 

[backbreaker]

I certainly agree. When I see attractive girls with guys who seem not particularly handsome it's almost always an early 20's guy with an early 20's girl usually around the university dist. I'm not saying the guys are ugly, and I can't even vouch that they're always in a sexual relationship. But far and away that's the only time I see attractive girls with rather average guys.

I know attracting girls was easier for me even 5 years ago. And 10 to 15 years ago with bad game I was turning down sex with girls I couldn't even get today.

something funny happened to me yesterday

there is this cutie pie at my gym that works there named McKenzie. she's as sweet as a button, very nice, very foksy, about my height (5'8), skinny, petite, very nice legs, very cute. not "hot" in the sense that oh she's the type of chick you would bang a a club but she's the type of chick you look at and think "that's wife material" right there. and she's not a **** or stuck up.

so we have this rapport going obn. nothing sexual or antyhing but we are cool. we chat each other up, talk about ****, her school (She's a junior she's 20), my work. she gave me some advice to try a new exercise machine for cardio, i tell her tv shows she needs to atch **** like that.

anyway yesterday i go to the gym and she's there just playing around lifting weights. she was off work and she said "i'm waiting on my boyfriend to come pick me up".

I"m like okay, in the back of my mind i'm very interseted to see what his girls BF looks like. this girl is a catch. I'm interested to see what type of super alpha male dude picked this chick up


so this ****ing dweeb comes through the door and i'm like really lol? I'm like bro do you even lift lol? which it's clear he doesn't. I mean he's just a normal looking college white dude lol. not ugly. not hot. nothing to write home about.

you would think by reading this forum that all the cute chicks are being slain by 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.


I think in general this forum places WAY, WAY too much emphasis on looks. the girl is a catch but i dated girls hotter than this chick BEFORE i came here as a teenager. so what that she's hot. she's still a girl.


I Mean, i wanted to say you could do better than that, but could she? i mean besides being pretty cute, she's a pretty freaking normal girl.


I think the biggest hting i'm trying to say is that, just get out there and play the game and see what happens. i bet this dude could give 2 ****s about her being the girl that works at the gym or how alpha he is or if him picking her up from the gym is a beta move, etc. just play the game and see what happens. get out, do some ****. meet some people.

 

[zekko]

you would think by reading this forum that all the cute chicks are being slain by 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.

Lol, so true. But a lot of the time it's simply a case of proximity, or familiarity, or social circle, or being at the right place at the right time.

It occurs to me that there are three types of males:
1) The 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha male with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.
2) The guy who could be the 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha male with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch, if he would just put enough work into himself.
3) The guy who is never going to be the 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch, no matter how hard they try.

There's a thread on the general forum, Who Dares Win says:
"I envy guys which have this fairy tale vision of life where they can do something and climb the hill but strongly disagree, if you're danny devito style bald and fat there's no sh1t you can do to have girls genuinely be attracted from you, sure money and fame but they dont touch themselves thinking about you under the shower thats a fact."

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208354

 

[SteR]

Lol, so true. But a lot of the time it's simply a case of proximity, or familiarity, or social circle, or being at the right place at the right time.

This is something that's really irritated me about life recently, ha. It really is a case of right place, right time. I've mentioned this before: You could meet a girl in a bar on some random night who is literally perfect for you, yet on that same day she may have had some disappointing news that's left her in an irritable mood. You go to approach and get shot down immediately. Yet on any other day when her mood was normal, something could have happened.

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

This is true but it's often been said that people are most attracted to girls that are similar to themselves. Now although I'm sure there is a rough sort of objective beauty, it's quite probable that Danny Devito deep down accepts what he is and knows the kind of woman he can go for.. I think it's the case for everyone. Everyone has a rough sense of their own value. I mean I'm not denying I wouldn't be attracted to a 10/10 supermodel but if I were to meet one in person, I probably wouldn't expect to hook up with her and it wouldn't really bother me a bit. Maybe that's self-limiting? I dunno. Anyway I consider myself a legit 10 so this would never happen

Maybe for guys who are less fortunate with their looks/status they'll naturally be more comfortable with a girl that's more in their 'range'.

 

[backbreaker]

This is something that's really irritated me about life recently, ha. It really is a case of right place, right time. I've mentioned this before: You could meet a girl in a bar on some random night who is literally perfect for you, yet on that same day she may have had some disappointing news that's left her in an irritable mood. You go to approach and get shot down immediately. Yet on any other day when her mood was normal, something could have happened.

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.



This is true but it's often been said that people are most attracted to girls that are similar to themselves. Now although I'm sure there is a rough sort of objective beauty, it's quite probable that Danny Devito deep down accepts what he is and knows the kind of woman he can go for.. I think it's the case for everyone. Everyone has a rough sense of their own value. I mean I'm not denying I wouldn't be attracted to a 10/10 supermodel but if I were to meet one in person, I probably wouldn't expect to hook up with her and it wouldn't really bother me a bit. Maybe that's self-limiting? I dunno. Anyway I consider myself a legit 10 so this would never happen

Maybe for guys who are less fortunate with their looks/status they'll naturally be more comfortable with a girl that's more in their 'range'.

I feel you.

I lost a client friday,that i mean, was absolutely perfect for what we do. Budget was fine, the type of work he wants we do extremely well, it was just a perfect fit. you want to know why we lost the client? because he looks in our portfolio and saw a porn site and said he wont' do business with programmers who work on porn sites lol. i bull **** you not. that's why we lost the project.

There is nothing you can do about it but keep going on. keep trying. it's a numbers game at the end of the day'

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.

this is some revolutionary **** i figured out actually not that long ago.

for years i worried about having the perfect sales pitch. but what i have found out that it's not as important as finding the perfect situations. Today I'm not so much concerned about my sales pitch as much as I'm focused on finding clients who fit.


when i was spinning plates when i was single i killed horse tracks. it was the perfect storm. a bunch of track girls / women in horse racing that follow horse racing, where the avg male is like 55 years old and creepy then i come along. my game didn't have to be perfect to be a breath of fresh air. a guy who understood their love for racing and didn't' bash them for it, who was also good looking and took care of himself at the same time. my line to my now wife was literally "hey give me your phone number" lol. AND SHE DID.

 

[Lexington]

And this is precisely why Plate Theory and Numbers Game is preached so much here. There are some days when you get blown out for no apparent reason. But there are also days when everything seems to work perfectly.

I find it hopelessly pessimistic that a guy who isn't ugly/super awkward/weird can't do 100 approaches and get laid by an above average looking girl.

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

In the end, does it really matter? In the vast majority of cases, a woman is attracted to a man for what he is and not for who he is. If I'm getting what I want/need from a woman, whether or not I'm "that guy" is irrelevant.