success rate drops when I open my mouth

[ApocalypticBroccoli]

Another theory I have is that some women have realised if you make a conversation awkward enough guys will often slip up and reveal their hand's allowing her to take total control of the frame

This is a really fascinating insight.

I had a very odd interaction a few weeks ago that made no sense to me at the time but is explained by this theory.

OTOH, it kinda backfired on everybody involved. I lost the frame but she didn't get control of it either. And I dumped her girlfriend as a result of it (not entirely because of it, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back). I guess everybody lost?

I can't 100% say wether this eye contact is definitively " come talk to me " or " stay away from me"

Dude, "stay away from me" isn't usually communicated with eye contact, but when it is it's painfully obvious. Like she has the word "creep" stenciled on her eyeballs.

Usually my rule is smile + eye contact is a clear go ahead , eye contact alone is just neither here nor there for me

My rules:

1. Avoiding eye contact: leave the poor girl alone
2. Less than one second of eye contact: go ahead and approach for practice, but don't feel bad if you don't get digits
3. One full second of eye contact: you should expect digits
4. Three full seconds of eye contact: she wants you to smash with her right now in the nearest janitorial closet

I'm gonna dig in my heels on that last point, it's never steered me wrong. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it always means what I think it means.

The gym is a particularly confusing environment because women tend to like dressing extremely provocatively , will give eye contact , will hover around men they find attractive and then on another day they will rock up with a boyfreind

Yeah I don't approach at the gym. I consider the gym to be a sacred space to be used for exercise and practicing nonverbal flirting.

On very rare occasions I may approach a girl as she's leaving the gym.

Interrupting her workout to approach is just lame, don't be that guy.

 

[BPH]

More excellent advice. It feels slimy, but it's actually legal in Arizona to record your own conversations without telling the other person (one-party consent state). I should probably start doing this. But since most of my pickup is daygame it happens without prior notice, and I really push myself hard to obey the three-second rule. And I would still feel like a scumbag if I did this.

I'm saying you could just record yourself talking to us, list it as private, and that way we can see how you're coming across.

 

[BeExcellent]

Ok great. You found the PHX thread. Yes the microchips & semiconductors are leading edge here. And its convection oven season too at the moment, lol.

Good to know your mating strategy. I know men who are non-monogamy types. Have the courage to be honest about that if pressed. I know a handsome dentist who is around my age. We dated 25 years ago when I was in my late 20s. He was very upfront then that he was "not the marrying kind". He is Persian and didn't care for Persian women, which his mother found disappointing, lol. He never did marry.

BUT. Now in his early 60s he has an Asian live in girlfriend who he loves, and she is fine with him having flings on occassion. They have been together now more than 10 years and will likely be together for the long haul. They live in NYC and she is a bond trader. So they are both very smart and successful.

The reason I asked about your financial means is to see whether or not money (or lack of it) limits where you can go. It doesn't so that is good. The women around here who are most fit are going to be very active. Golf, tennis, pickleball, equestrian, running, hiking. There are also gun clubs if you are into shooting. Surely you have been out & about in N Scottsdale or to High Street? The singles there will be older than the Mill Street or Old Town Scottsdale crowd, and many are in shape. Both High Street and the Penske dealerships do a periodic "Cars and Coffee" thing on Saturday mornings. I have not gone, but intend to one of these times.

You might check out live music venues too if you like live music. If you can dance, even better.

As far as engaging in conversation, you need to exhibit a genuine curiosity about the other person. Ask follow up questions, keep her chatting about her favorite topic, herself.....

Get the following book:

The Fine Art of Small Talk by Deborah Fine. She was a socially awkward engineer who learned to master the art of conversation. It gives a very logical approach to the hows and whys of conversational banter. You seem a logic driven guy, give it a read.

 

[Jor-El]

There is an old thread here you would do well to read/study. It gives the details of where to go in PHX. It was written by SW15, a long time contributor here who unfortunately passed away unexpectedly last year (perhaps earlier this year)....but his thread goes into the best venues around here. And it also addresses many of your questions. I contributed, so did many others.

Use your search function. Author is SW15, thread title is "Observations on Phoenix Scene".

I stink at copying links (I'm old, lol, sorry) but perhaps one of the guys can paste the link in here for reference.

What is your goal with meeting women? To be a playboy, to have a friend with benefits, a girlfriend, a wife?

And what do you do for a living and what kind of financial means do you have? It matters. Read the thread I mentioned and the why gets discussed.

Nobody here will blow sunshine up your rear end. If you want to date 20 years younger, you are going to have to have some serious draw for much younger women, that typically means exceptional good looks, or exceptional financial means combined with great social skills (which seem thus far to be lacking).

The avatar is a photo of me, by the way. In my 50s. Read the Observations on Phoenix Scene thread. It may answer many of your questions.

Welcome.

Not to hijack the thread but I didnt know that about SW15...thats sad,his posts were always considered and detailed