Street PU 101

[Lifeforce]

Just want to say I was wrong in my beliefs... I have overrated looks a little too much I think. Personality and looks are like yin and yang, they are both needed in equal amount.

 

[Jariel]

If "game" means techniques, gimmicks, tricks and strategies aimed at winning over a woman, these are redundant when you look good. You already have their initial attraction so you don't need to work for it. All you have to do is avoid blowing it and this is where having a confident, outgoing and generally likeable personality is important.

However, speaking bluntly, a lot of the PUAs and seducers I know of are like drones, preprogrammed with pick up instructions and a cliched attitude. They don't have very appealing personalities, they're arrogant, insulting, shallow-minded, short-tempered, disrespectful and actually very insecure. Their "game" is just a facade.

For sure, looks aren't the whole game, but self-improvement doesn't end with looks. It's about becoming the total package.

 

[wolfie]

Originally posted by Jariel
I agree with Lifeforce on this one. I just feel that all these games, strategies and tricks are for guys who believe they aren't good enough to attract women naturally and are either too lazy to improve themselves or just defeatists who think it will make no difference.

I'm not an arrogant person, but I am constantly improving myself (mind and body) and becoming more confident, better looking and more desireable to women. I posted my progress here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61926

Since that post I've had more women (including my friend's girlfriend) come on to me, and I have dates lined up during the next two weeks without making a single approach.

I'm not trying to undermine the whole PUA style, but there are more rewarding and effective routes to the same destination. Most guys will never have the confidence to pull off this technique anyway, because their self image is so low.

You talk of improving yourself and not being lazy, yet you admit to NOT MAKING A SINGLE APPROACH. Would you have the balls and the dedication to train to improve yourself by going out up to 7 nights a week and cold approaching girl after girl? To constantly train yourself to get out of that social discomfort zone of meeting a total stranger, and learning how to be as socially interesting as possible in the first 5 minutes?
Because that's what some PUAs do to train their skills. Hitting the gym is something any chump can do, but doing something socially unusual as cold approaching day in day out takes something more.

Your posts suggest you think routines and stories etc are just some sort of magic pill for those with no social skills that will get them laid immediately. Rest assured this is not the case. If anyone is going to get results with them, they will have to cold approach hundreds of times, practice the routines hundreds of times, get used to cold approaching and delivering the routine hundreds of times, and fill in the interaction around the routines with other stuff.. i.e 'natural' game, actual personality.
The routines are just guideposts to take the interaction in a certain direction or to fill in an interaction when the PUA can't think of anything to say.
By comparison, it takes a much shorter period of time to put on muscle mass and improve your looks than it does to become a good PUA who can effectively use routines.

 

[Jariel]

Would you have the balls and the dedication to train to improve yourself by going out up to 7 nights a week and cold approaching girl after girl? To constantly train yourself to get out of that social discomfort zone of meeting a total stranger, and learning how to be as socially interesting as possible in the first 5 minutes?

I don’t see that as improvement; I see it as desperation. I can get dates and numbers, make friends or get laid without going through all that trouble, so I don’t see any need to go chasing after complete strangers.

The reason I don’t cold approach any more is because I'm in no rush to hook up with strangers. I meet women regularly through my friends and acquaintances, I take time getting to know them and if they seem worth it, I'll ask them out (unless they ask first).

Your posts suggest you think routines and stories etc are just some sort of magic pill for those with no social skills that will get them laid immediately.

Actually, I don’t believe it is a magic pill, because from what I’m seeing it doesn’t work effectively. The mantra of the PUA seems to be constant approaching and constant rejection, which tells me that this stuff fails more than it succeeds.

By comparison, it takes a much shorter period of time to put on muscle mass and improve your looks than it does to become a good PUA who can effectively use routines.

I absolutely agree, and after that shorter period of time the women start approaching you and giving you their numbers without you needing to ask. So why is becoming a PUA worth it?

 

[Lifeforce]

Jariel... you talk about becoming the prize. I am with you on this one. We share the same philosophy. As I see it there are two roads. The one were you become the prize by improving yourself and becoming a successful person, this will draw women to you and give initial attraction.

Then there is the other way which is more of a shortcut and directed at getting laid. You learn techniques study seduction to understand and influence women, manipulate if you use a synomnym.

The difference is also in how you approach. The seducer will try to attract, the prize will try to choose. The two techniques won't work together.

 

[Lifeforce]

If it's easier to get muscles, what is the point of learning to be a PU?

 

[Lifeforce]

Yeah I agree with you in your last post Jariel. It's so much more fun to have women approach you and try to seduce you. I have been in the PUA field doing well over 1000 approaches with very little success. This was before my improvement. No I don't like that way. Improvement is more fun and I am feeling so much better too.

 

[AlwaysExcel]

Hey Lifeforce, a couple thoughts on why you like one way vs the other. In my humble opinion, it all has to do with how you're developing your inner game and your understanding of seduction as a whole.

You're approaching structured game with the wrong mindset and thus it doesn't work properly for you, even after "1000's" of approaches. As you stated, your view of PUA tactics is "changing yourself to get a girl" or "chasing the girl." You seem to think that tactics are "something you do, to get a girl" (supplicating). I used to think this for a long time so I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Like people have already mentioned in this thread, tactics and a seduction outline or plan are tools to help us overcome obstacles. What everyone should keep in mind is that we are awesome human beings, but we have a couple problems:
1) we don't remember our value in the presence of beautiful women
2) we have trouble naturally and non-abrasively conveying how cool we are to other people.
3) we are not practiced at smoothly and naturally moving a encounter along toward sex.

Tactics and plans merely help us WHERE AND WHEN we have problems. Some dudes have absolutely no social sense and need a lot more structured game than others at first. Other guys have a lot more social grace but need to bust out a tool here and there to help them overcome certain obstacles. Most of their game is just being naturally THEM. People run into problems with tactics when they completely suppress their personalities and just spit routines. That's an insecure inner game that relies on magic tactics for success rather than yourself.

And just because a person is active in his PU efforts, doesn't mean that he's panting after a bunch of women who don't deserve it. He's merely expanding his range of opportunities and meeting new people. He's helping weak women meet him and understand how cool he is so they can chase him. He's also checking them out to see if he really want to have sex with them. And he's lifting psychological weights. Charisma, social skill, mental stamina, improvisation, and personal power can take you much further in life than looks and physcial strength.

But obviously, you claim to be happy with your way. So what accounts for your success? Working out boosts your confidence level and improves your inner game. Your inner game shines through your actions and your whole game improves. That's awesome!

Yet, you seem too focused on "working out" or "looking good." (you talk about working out quite a bit in this thread)
It can't be simply "working out" and "improving oneself." I have a friend who hits the gym every day and is so fvcking ripped. I mean super model ripped. He dresses very well and wears mad bling. Yet, his inner game and confidence level is WAAAAAY below AFC and he is the beta of betas. Improving his looks don't help him like they do you. My natural alpha friend with a beer gut gets way more action than Beta Bulge.

You knock tactics for being "things you do to get a girl" but your frame of mind is exactly that. You're working out because "girls are visual and attracted to hot bods." Working out has given you success while PUA tactics haven't. So you're really just exchanging one tactic for another and still doing stuff so girls will like you. The problem is that your frame of mind is wrong no matter what tactic you choose.

Definitely keep working out. It makes you feel good and improves your inner game. Yet don't cling to that. Personal empowerment is about using whatever tool you need to enhance your way of being. Always frame everything you do as something that helps YOU solve a problem, not as something that will make people like you more or chase you more. Yes, people will like you more and chase you more when you use certain tools, but focusing on that is not the right frame in my experience.

My experience has been that once I realized this frame, tactics started making more sense. Seduction is coming together as whole for me. It's not about randomly throwing out certain tactics and they magically make a girl like you. It's not about rigidly following a bullet list of "things to do in a sarge." It's not about "do this specific thing and you'll be successful." I'm now understanding the theory behind it all, which is much more important. Once the theory is really realized through experience, not just read and intellectually understood, your personal flair and creativity can come shining through like it is supposed to.

 

[Lifeforce]

No matter what your fancy words might say the same result is that techniques=supplicating. You don't get it, move outside the world of getting women and into the world of self improvement. One big part of self improvement is learning how to handle people, not just seduction but the whole thing. You will learn from experience, you can do it well without techniques. A person looking good does not mean he isn't charismatic, funny and all that.

If you use techniques you are doing it to get women or get past an obstacle that prevent the girl from liking you, the focus is still the women, and the focus is that this woman must be attracted. If I encounter a woman who I have a bad convo with or it halts I just leave or never talk to her again. She is as responsible as I when it comes to the convo. This way you get the most out of meeting women. You asked me what account for my success: Not chasing women.

I don't need your advice, I do what pleases me wheter you like it or not. You might want a piece of advice yourself: stay the hell away from making assumptions about who I am and what I do. Body building is way more than getting chicks. why don't you and all the other ASF *****es who have been flooding this board get the hell away from here and back to were you came from so you can talk about seduction and techniques until you rot. And then when the all the girls have used you for sex you will discover how ****ing pointless techniques and seduction really is.

 

[AlwaysExcel]

Sorry I hurt your feelings guy. I seriously didn't intend to come off as condescending or whatever you're all twisted up about. I merely thought you wanted to discuss theory since you had so many comments in someone else's thread about street pick-ups, on a seduction forum. Don't misunderstand me. I could give a fvck whether you lift weights, approach women, or understand game. If you don't want to even consider what I'm saying about seduction in general and would rather take it all personally, I'm not losing any sleep.
Keep on keeping on.

 

[Lifeforce]

Well stop build your posts around how you think I am and your advice on what I should do, I'll ask if I want your help or advice. Then you'll get a nice reply back. I might even throw in a nice blanket in the deal.

However, I have no interest in discussing theory or stuff like that, I won't consider anything you write because i already have this figured out for my part. The only reason I write replies in threads like this is to show there is another way than PUA.

 

[jakethasnake]

Wow - I've never seen a Swede get so worked up like this. Do you have some Italian in you or something?

 

[Lifeforce]

Bad manners is the first word that comes to my mind. Truly sorry alwaysexcel. I read in a little too much in your words because of my deep loathing of techniques.

I'll let all the post stay as they are to learn myself a lesson to think before I talk and to be more rational.

And maybe I should check up my gene pool

 

[wolfie]

Originally posted by Jariel
I don’t see that as improvement; I see it as desperation. I can get dates and numbers, make friends or get laid without going through all that trouble, so I don’t see any need to go chasing after complete strangers.

The reason I don’t cold approach any more is because I'm in no rush to hook up with strangers. I meet women regularly through my friends and acquaintances, I take time getting to know them and if they seem worth it, I'll ask them out (unless they ask first).

Actually, I don’t believe it is a magic pill, because from what I’m seeing it doesn’t work effectively. The mantra of the PUA seems to be constant approaching and constant rejection, which tells me that this stuff fails more than it succeeds.

I absolutely agree, and after that shorter period of time the women start approaching you and giving you their numbers without you needing to ask. So why is becoming a PUA worth it?

Cold approaching day in day out is not some kind of desperate attempt to get laid as much as possible. It is training, just like hitting the gym every day or studying every day.
You agree that hitting the gym and bulking up is faster than becoming a PUA - but bulking up and getting muscles, and becoming more physically attractive does NOT give you the social skills or social intelligence to handle women.
Sure, women may become more attracted to you, but will you know how to handle them?
You take your stereotypical 90 pound weakling whose social circle consists entirely of a few net geeks he's been hanging around all his life. He puts on 50 pounds of muscle and clears his skin up, starts to dress snazzy.
Suddenly he's getting looks from women, HB7s etc are starting to say hi to him, smile at him etc. Does he know what to do? What to say? How to react? Of course not. He's been socially retarded his entire life, what's he going to do now that he has the POTENTIAL to attract women. The only way to become socially skilled is to put yourself in social situations again and again until you become acclimated to them and know how to handle yourself. Working on your physical features helps, but in no way will it grant you the skills to handle social situations like attracting women.
Cold approaching puts you in a social situation where you are forced to convey your personality and attractiveness as quickly and efficiently as possible, and AFAIK is the best way to practise this skill.
Sure, you may meet women every day through your massive social circle, but what about those people who aren't fortunate enough to have such a circle? What about those people who don't naturally have your outgoing and fun personality and easy going manner?
Sites like destin9's claim this kind of problem can all be fixed by introspection and self analysis. I say this kind of thought takes second place to ACTION and EXPERIENCE which is where cold approaching comes in. The only way to build social skills is to socialize, not think about why you can't.

 

[Lifeforce]

My point when you improve yourself is not just to do a physical part. At the same time, meet new people, you do not necessary have to hit on them, just met people engage in your hobbies whatever they are and this way your social circle will grow. Your personallity will evolve as you learn how to behave in social gatherings if you are willing to learn. Most social inadapt do not know how to act and they do not care to learn either, they have their security and this is fine for them.

IMO doing approach after approcah is a pretty useless way, sure the experience I have got through approaching have helped alot, but I could have got it in other ways. Socialize is not just talking to women, it's talking with people, wheter it's the guy who is at the store looking at the same stuff as you or the old lady waiting for the bus. You are dead on that experience and action beats everything else.

 

[MRomeo99]

I've been down the path of this "argument" with Lifeforce before. He believes that the only path to women is to be physically attractive. Of course that doesn't explain why so many hot women have average looking boyfriends. But, that's neither here nor there.

There is so much more to attraction than being "ripped". I know guys who are fat and bald who get women like crazy. Because they understand that physical attraction is very little of what attracts a woman.

Lifeforce believes that women are attracted to men the same way men are attracted to women. It just isn't so my friend. But, I feel that you lack the maturity to understand that at this point. Sure, it definitely helps with the little teeny bopper 18 year olds. But, with real women and not girls, there is so much more to what attracts them.

Look at Billy Bob Thornton. Can anyone say he is a 10 on a physical attractiveness level? Yet time and time again hot women lust after him before a Tom Cruise/Brad Pitt looking guy.

I'll say it again Lifeforce I think you're wrong. And I have years of experience with women on you that reinforces my belief. Yet, you've taken your personal experience and decided that this is the way the world works. Regardless of the fact that many of us have had directly opposite experiences. I think you have a limiting belief that is holding you back. But, you also have an empowering belief for yourself that is causing you some success(ie your new buff bod gets you chicks). So, it's not all bad.

--Romeo--

 

[jason86]

Im not going to hate on the people who do this technique system or whatever coz it works for you and you feel its the right thing to do, which is cool.

But while i was reading, i saw a line where it said it takes the fun out of meeting women, and that was just so right. And also i saw a line which said this is not a rocket science, which was so right too.

Just reading things like dont move when she says that (not exactly that but too that extent) is just too over the top. Just let it all flow and chill dudes.

 

[MindOverMatter]

It just isn't so my friend. But, I feel that you lack the maturity to understand that at this point. Sure, it definitely helps with the little teeny bopper 18 year olds. But, with real women and not girls, there is so much more to what attracts them.

I disagree 100%. Some of the most sexually aggressive women (i.e. they pursue you, kino you, etc) were 30+ year olds. If anyone appreciates a good physique, it's them. I'm not saying they only look for physical attraction, but it plays a big role. If you think women don't notice the difference between a guy with a chisled body and a bald dude with a gut, you're deluding yourself. I'm not saying the bald gutman can't get laid, but I am saying that his chances are slim compared to that of the other guy.

Your Billy Bob Thorton argument is flawed.

1.) He's rich and famous.
2.) His onscreen characters portray him as a man that easily gets laid, and even off screen, that's somewhat of a status. Ladies see him banging Hale Berry, etc on screen, and assume he's a sex symbol in real life. It has nothing to do with Billy Bob Thorton, it has to do with his celebrity status. If he was a plumber instead of a movie star, he wouldn't get sh!t heh.

Stop using celebrities as examples, they live in a world different from ours, and they don't count.

 

[Lifeforce]

Thank you for your reply Mrromeo.

As I see it looking good is one of the more crucial things. In my opinion looking good+having a good personality+having balls is the key at least for me and some other people. I might extend this to having a successful life. This will attract the ladies of my liking, I experience this now. But panta rei, my mind will change and I might discover I live in a illusion at the moment.

This question has never been asked to me. I have not seen especially many hot women with ugly or average looking BF. There are other ways to attract like having power, social status and such. Like Billy bob thornton have. But to a normal guy, looking good is a important aspect for initial attraction it will help almost anyone. But it is not a key factor unless you make it one. I don't think my body does all attraction, at the same time I do have a personality I like and I have easy to talk to some women who share something with my world of view.

I too have years of experince and many, many approaches under my belt to say you are wrong. But the truth is that we are both correct. You use another way than I do. And now I realize it's like arguing which poem is the prettiest, Emily ****enson or Shakespeare? We take the way that fit us best our own liking.

This apply to what women like to, you cannot make judgement on what is true and what is not. No matter what you do women will be attracted to you. The question is if the women you attract are those you want. And if I answer this question, the women I attract are those I want. So I am happy.

Do not say what I think or do not think, i can manage this for myself.

 

[Lan]

Lifeforce is just not getting the picture. Keyboard jockeys really dont though. And I beleive it may also be a lack of maturity on some part. He states the obvious which really isnt constructive to this thread. No flaming intended.

Attraction for men is binary. Its either a yes or no.

Attraction for women is like a dimmer switch. The more you turn the knob, the more attracted and turned on she gets. Not to discount physical attraction, but, it will generally only get you less resistance/***** shield. Also depending on how attractive you are, you may even get approached.

I am not in a position to comment much on the older women as I have gamed them on a very limited basis. I am an attractive guy and have many older women commenting on how handsome/attractive/hot I am. But, I know that if a man with tighter game than I came along, she would probably go for him.

--Lan