Rate my appearence

[BeExcellent]

I'm talking more about the stress you are putting on yourself about what others think about you.

Who cares? You can never get to the place you want to go when this is the base mindset you have where other people's opinions cause debilitating stress and anxiety.

The above is true 100%. If you are losing sleep over inability to attract young women then the reality is that you believe your life is being held hostage by women; strangers who don't know you and don't give a flip about you.

That translates to your vibe. It comes off desparate, resentful, entitled, and yes, creepy. It OOZES out of you. It is the definition of Anti-Seductive.

So what if you feel like a 19 year old stuck in a 42 year old body. That is immaturity. You need most to examine these things.

Changing your appearance will not change your immature mental state where you think you are entitled to a 21 year old because you wanna be Peter Pan. You gotta grow up dude. Immaturity is not attractive.

If you were to attract a young woman, which is unlikely given your vibe....her parents are going to see right through it, even if she doesn't.

 

[BeExcellent]

That is a common misconception among women. Intelligent men are not necessarily looking for their intellectual match. They are not looking for a debate partner or someone to have philosophical discussions with. The average nuclear scientist or hedge fund manager is going to be attracted to the same type of woman as the average plumber or bus driver.

Its an example comrade, relax. If he wants a Hooters girl? Date a Hooters girl ffs. He's not going to attract one right now but he can like who ever he pleases.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Its an example comrade, relax.

Thanks Karen, I am relaxed now.

 

[BPH]

@Plinco my suggestion, as I'd already communicated in the past, is to lean into what makes you different from the guys that surround your target audience, and find who's interested in that.

For example, you own your business, and you have your own place. You are 20+ years older than these women and can afford to dress nicer. You aren't living in a dorm or a leased off-campus house with 4 roommates. You aren't dressing in whatever unwrinkled button-down goes best with your salmon khaki shorts and cheap Sperry alternatives.

You shouldn't be trying to blend in with the 20-somethings when you're 40-something, or trying to use your style to communicate that you're "young-at-heart".

Market yourself to the women who prefer an older man with his sh** together. Your angle should be "experience", not "youth".

I'm friends with a guy from my gym who is in his 50s. I think I've described him before as looking like Johnny Sins. He's about 6'2", somewhere in the neighborhood of 205lbs. He's completely bald and usually clean-shaven. In terms of experience, we get along well because we have a similar perspective and goals when it comes to women - he's been with a few hundred, by his own admission. He doesn't STRICTLY go for young women, as is @Plinco 's goal, but he's obliged when they've come his way - and they DO come his way.

He's in the gym regularly, he keeps his (remaining) hair and facial hair groomed, he wears clothes that fit him well (never baggy, but also never too tight), he's got great teeth, a nice smile, and is a very friendly guy overall.

My point is...this is all possible, you just need to stop being committed to "doing it your way", since "your way" hasn't been working out so far.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Men will go to great lengths and world class hamster spinning to avoid acknowledging that your looks are only a SMALL piece of the puzzle.

Looks mean absolutely nothing if:

- Your game is weak
- You have no social skills
- You radiate creepy energy
- You have a conflicted frame
- You are unsure of yourself
- You are not confident
- You are socially uncalibrated
- You can't read the room to save your life
- You can't read her body language to save your life
- You are overly dependent on outcome
- It's clear you are overly dependent on outcome
- She can smell your desperation
- You are approaching the wrong people
- You are dressing like a hobo
- You smell like a hobo
- You have a clearly visible erection
- You sound like Marty McFly from "Back To The Future"
- You think memorized openers = game
- You can't read her emotions
- You have dirty fingernails
- Your shoes look like you got them from a dumpster
- You have a horrible sense of style
- You trust the fistfvckers on SoSuave to honestly judge your looks

 

[Plinco]

The above is true 100%. If you are losing sleep over inability to attract young women then the reality is that you believe your life is being held hostage by women; strangers who don't know you and don't give a flip about you.

That translates to your vibe. It comes off despatate, resentful, entitled, and yes, creepy. It OOZES out of you. It is the definition of Anti-Seductive.

So what if you feel like a 19 year old stuck in a 42 year old body. That is immaturity. You need most to examine these things.

Changing your appearance will not change your immature mental state where you think you are entitled to a 21 year old because you wanna be Peter Pan. You gotta grow up dude. Immaturity is not attractive.

If you were to attract a young woman, which is unlikely given your vibe....her parents are going to see right through it, even if she doesn't.

I'm holding myself hostage, not anyone else. Women are like customers for my lawn business. The more I have the easier my life gets, gives me tons of work to do, if I lose one it's not the end of the world, my lack of tact sometimes drives them away from me, and I suppose you're right, wanting them so much gives a vibe of desperation, and some prospective customers have tried to low ball be before, which I wouldn't go along with any more than buying a strange woman a drink. On the flip side, since my customers have allowed me to enjoy a decent living, I value them, in turn that gets them to appreciate me, which is like how much a woman craves to be desired. How much do I value a good customer is something like how much more I would desire such a woman.

Am I entitled to my customers? Of course not, but that doesn't stop me from advertising, or getting frustrated if my work doesn't pan out the way I planned. I'm I entitled to women? No, but that doesn't mean I won't approach or get frustrated at myself for failure.

As far as not lining up to expectations, I think that's an issue of conformity and not maturity, but if you have some insight I welcome it.

I appreciate you reading into my thread.

@Plinco my suggestion, as I'd already communicated in the past, is to lean into what makes you different from the guys that surround your target audience, and find who's interested in that.

For example, you own your business, and you have your own place. You are 20+ years older than these women and can afford to dress nicer. You aren't living in a dorm or a leased off-campus house with 4 roommates. You aren't dressing in whatever unwrinkled button-down goes best with your salmon khaki shorts and cheap Sperry alternatives.

You shouldn't be trying to blend in with the 20-somethings when you're 40-something, or trying to use your style to communicate that you're "young-at-heart".

Market yourself to the women who prefer an older man with his sh** together. Your angle should be "experience", not "youth".

I'm friends with a guy from my gym who is in his 50s. I think I've described him before as looking like Johnny Sins. He's about 6'2", somewhere in the neighborhood of 205lbs. He's completely bald and usually clean-shaven. In terms of experience, we get along well because we have a similar perspective and goals when it comes to women - he's been with a few hundred, by his own admission. He doesn't STRICTLY go for young women, as is @Plinco 's goal, but he's obliged when they've come his way - and they DO come his way.

He's in the gym regularly, he keeps his (remaining) hair and facial hair groomed, he wears clothes that fit him well (never baggy, but also never too tight), he's got great teeth, a nice smile, and is a very friendly guy overall.

My point is...this is all possible, you just need to stop being committed to "doing it your way", since "your way" hasn't been working out so far.

That's an excellent point. We've had this discussion at length.

 

[Lauel]

3) Being a drug dealer/pimp/other type of parasite and praying on young women from broken homes.

I should be laughing, but it's painfully real.

 

[BeExcellent]

I'm not one to sugar coat @Plinco . Categorize it however you like, but you are totally outcome dependent on how younger women percieve you, so much so in fact that you are here asking about it.

That is the complete opposite of outcome independence. It IS in your vibe.

Your coach @BPH is pretty outcome independent. Not 100% but much closer than you are. It shows in his vibe. He is totally at ease approaching, doesn't care what a particular woman thinks for the most part, and he is confident & unapologetic about who he is. He's not in a scribble up in his head while he's chatting up girls, and he knows he's attractive & that bolsters his confidence. His results bear this out.

Mine do too. I know I am attractive, I am confident in that and I am myself. I do not care what others think. I am outcome independent. I know really, most people don't care about me or my comings and goings. Frankly its kind of nice now, at nearing 60, that every guy is NOT gawking at me. And I'll often forego make up if I'm going out somewhere alone. I am married afterall and don't need or desire the attention.

That is a very different mentality than losing sleep over what other people think of me.

That is what you must grow through my friend. We are all rooting for you but telling you the truth as best we can ascertain at the same time.

 

[Plinco]

I'm not one to sugar coat @Plinco . Categorize it however you like, but you are totally outcome dependent on how younger women percieve you, so much so in fact that you are here asking about it.

That is the complete opposite of outcome independence. It IS in your vibe.

Your coach @BPH is pretty outcome independent. Not 100% but much closer than you are. It shows in his vibe. He is totally at ease approaching, doesn't care what a particular woman thinks for the most part, and he is confident & unapologetic about who he is. He's not in a scribble up in his head while he's chatting up girls, and he knows he's attractive & that bolsters his confidence. His results bear this out.

Mine do too. I know I am attractive, I am confident in that and I am myself. I do not care what others think. I am outcome independent. I know really, most people don't care about me or my comings and goings. Frankly its kind of nice now, at nearing 60, that every guy is NOT gawking at me. And I'll often forego make up if I'm going out somewhere alone. I am married afterall and don't need or desire the attention.

That is a very different mentality than losing sleep over what other people think of me.

That is what you must grow through my friend. We are all rooting for you but telling you the truth as best we can ascertain at the same time.

I'll lose sleep over arguments, over losing a customer or losing money, I'll lose sleep over what's going on in the world, etc. I'll get especially angry over an idea becoming popular that has deep implications, and I've completely lost sleep over that too. I haven't thought about that as outcome dependency. That gives me some food for thought.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I do not care what others think. I am outcome independent.

HI BE... good stuff (as per your usual ) but could you (or anyone) explain the difference between outcome "dependant" and outcome "hopeful"?

I'm not so much dependant on a particular outcome, meaning I won't fall to pieces if something doesn't go my way, but I do become hopeful that it will go my way and disappointed when it doesn't. I might even lose a little sleep but bounce back quick.

I DO care what people think of me; strangers NO. But those I am close with or becoming close with? Yes I do care. As I'm sure most people do

Perhaps @Plinco can relate to what I'm asking or some of? That he's not so much dependent on the outcome but rather "hopeful"?

I dunno...I'm still trying to figure it all out tbh.

 

[Plinco]

HI BE... good stuff (as per your usual ) but could you (or anyone) explain the difference between outcome "dependant" and outcome "hopeful"?

That's a matter of emotional investment and context of the situation.

I'm not so much dependant on a particular outcome, meaning I won't fall to pieces if something doesn't go my way, but I do become hopeful that it will go my way and disappointed when it doesn't. I might even lose a little sleep but bounce back quick.

I DO care what people think of me; strangers NO. But those I am close with or becoming close with? Yes I do care. As I'm sure most people do

In other words, like everyone else, you feel it more when it's clear to you and the more profound. If it's someone you know, their opinion matters more to you than a stranger's.

Perhaps @Plinco can relate to what I'm asking or some of? That he's not so much dependent on the outcome but rather "hopeful"?

I dunno...I'm still trying to figure it all out tbh.

I would have said it before, that I'm a perfectionist and want things to go my way. I didn't make the connection between that and the concept of outcome dependency until she pointed that out.

 

[Sega Genesis]

That's a matter of emotional investment and context of the situation.

^^Of course. Would you say then that you're "emotionally invested" in attracting younger 20ish women?

Our emotions play a role in everything we do, no? Unless we're robots which none of us are.

Be the best you can be and get out there and interact with people. Not to attract women necessarily, but rather simply to be social.

Maybe you'll get a date, make a new friend or nothing at all. But whatever happens, you're improving your social skills and becoming comfortable in your own skin. Both of which attract women naturally without much effort especially the latter.

I suppose that's what BE meant by outcome independent - your interactions should not be dependent on you attracting women or getting a date. Again you're simply being social. Talk with as many people as you can both women and men. Detach from the outcome.

Hopeful? Yes. Dependent? No.

I didn't make the connection between that and the concept of outcome dependency until she pointed that out.

This^^ is what i'm trying to figure out. What that connection actually is... but I think I just answered my own question!

 

[BeExcellent]

Outcome dependence or independence really gets to core belief systems about self. Some interactions do not affect concept of self at all. So the self is impermeable to those rejections.

A couple of examples:
1. You go to a drive through & order french fries. The drive through staff person asks "Do you want ketchup with those fries?" You say No.

The drive through person simply registers your response and moves on. There is zero emotional investment in whether you accept or decline the ketchup.

2. Similarly you are on an airplane and the flight attendant offers you a drink, or a snack. You decline. The flight attendant does not get upset that you decline. There is very little emotional investment in your response. The flight attendant simply moves on.

The above interactions do not affect self concept. So people are impervious to them. There is no emotional investment in the outcome.

Lets talk about another tier, shall we say.

Another poster sometimes refers to me as "Karen" here, which of course is meant as an insult. In fact, I have been personally attacked/insulted/belittled around here plenty over many years. Sometimes I try to further explain a certain view, sometimes I am disappointed that the time investment I make to try and help someone else gets pushed aside, sometimes I simply ignore it & drive on. This a male space & not everybody is on board wth my presence here. At the end of the day I am respectful but really don't care what some pot-shot shooter thinks. I say my $0.02 cents and drive on. Obviously I am trying to offer a POV to add benefit & sometimes I catch flak. No worries. My concept of self is utterly unaffected at the end of the day. But I have a well developed self concept, and I don't lose sleep about stuff around here.

Let's look at a couple other types of examples.....

 

[BeExcellent]

Let's say you want your dad to come see your baseball game, your graduation, your (insert whatever milestone). Let's say you are a "good" grown son or daughter, you make effort on birthdays, holidays and special occassions for that family member.

And let's say not only do they not show.....let's say they rarely or never show up...despite all your effort toward that family member.....

There is far more emotional investment in that type interaction, far more (most would say reasonable) expectation. It is harder to be impervious to those disappointments. Those disappointments have a context.

Maybe you want dad to see you as successful the way he seems to see your brother, for example.

But even here, you do not control the other person's actions. You must accept them, self soothe and not worry about it. Maybe dad is incapable of giving a crap for whatever reason. So what? Outcome independence is feeling that emotion, processing it, and letting it go.

It is not berating yourself or feeling "less than" because someone close to you did not show up.

 

[BeExcellent]

Romantic interactions (for sake of a simple term to group them) start off as you and the other person being complete and utter strangers. To me, this falls somewhere between the flight attendant interaction and the interaction with a family member. Most people care to some degree or other about what someone they fancy thinks about them........But I hold the view that this tendency is premature. Obviously as we become closer to a particular individual we DO care more what that individual thinks. They move into more a family member type category over time. That is normal. And it can be disappointing when they do something that affronts the associated emotional investment in some way. But even here.....we can never control the other person. We can only observe and respond, and it is best to do so as objectively as possible.

What I see around here a tremendous amount is men who are terribly over invested in what some random woman thinks. You don't know her! She may not give you the time of day, you might be invisible to her, or she might turn out to be a crazy BPD stage 5 clinger! Doesn't matter.

If you have a well developed sense of self, and are not seeking attention and validation to prop up a weak sense of self, you are not going to be gobsmacked by looks or body, and you are going to behave in an appropriate way.

If you have a less well developed sense of self, and you are too invested in whether or not this stranger woman (who could be a complete weirdo for all you know) gives you the time of day or not, then what you have done is become dependent on her opinion in regard to your self esteem, and in really bad cases, you objectify this woman and see her not as a person, but as an object, something to be obtained, her will be damned, an accessory that broadcasts your worth outward to others. In the latter case you have dehumanized the woman, she is merely an object used to prop you up and show off (that is textbook what a narcissist does - and narcissists have very VERY fragile sense of self and self concept).

If you are so invested in what women think whom you don't even know? You are indeed outcome dependent, and in need of some self examination.

 

[Plinco]

Another poster sometimes refers to me as "Karen" here, which of course is meant as an insult. In fact, I have been personally attacked/insulted/belittled around here plenty over many years.

He's just bantering with you.

Romantic interactions (for sake of a simple term to group them) start off as you and the other person being complete and utter strangers. To me, this falls somewhere between the flight attendant interaction and the interaction with a family member. Most people care to some degree or other about what someone they fancy thinks about them........But I hold the view that this tendency is premature. Obviously as we become closer to a particular individual we DO care more what that individual thinks. They move into more a family member type category over time. That is normal. And it can be disappointing when they do something that affronts the associated emotional investment in some way. But even here.....we can never control the other person. We can only observe and respond, and it is best to do so as objectively as possible.

What I see around here a tremendous amount is men who are terribly over invested in what some random woman thinks. You don't know her! She may not give you the time of day, you might be invisible to her, or she might turn out to be a crazy BPD stage 5 clinger! Doesn't matter.

If you have a well developed sense of self, and are not seeking attention and validation to prop up a weak sense of self, you are not going to be gobsmacked by looks or body, and you are going to behave in an appropriate way.

If you have a less well developed sense of self, and you are too invested in whether or not this stranger woman (who could be a complete weirdo for all you know) gives you the time of day or not, then what you have done is become dependent on her opinion in regard to your self esteem, and in really bad cases, you objectify this woman and see her not as a person, but as an object, something to be obtained, her will be damned, an accessory that broadcasts your worth outward to others. In the latter case you have dehumanized the woman, she is merely an object used to prop you up and show off (that is textbook what a narcissist does - and narcissists have very VERY fragile sense of self and self concept).

If you are so invested in what women think whom you don't even know? You are indeed outcome dependent, and in need of some self examination.

I appreciate you taking the time to write that out. I've been thinking about this most of the day today and there's some things I want to point out, if nothing else, then for the lurkers reading this thread.

Outcome independence must be distinguished from nihilism, which in this context is to have no emotional investment in any relationship.

Outcome expectation is rational and depends on a set of the person's convictions.

A person's self-esteem must be produced. Think of this in terms of confidence versus hubris; actual versus potential.


As for me, I've examined myself very well within my understanding and some things are very important to me; I don't like to lose anything. I think the concept of outcome dependent is not the right way to put it.

I know what I want, I know why I want it, and I'll do whatever it takes to get it if it's important enough.

 

[Cheeky_James]

@Plinco check out Brent Smith’s stuff , interviews with Cliffs List on YT for example. His approach would be perfect for you (and lines up with SGs advice ). You can see his current lifestyle on his IG .. he’s a super high value guy now these days.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Am I entitled to my customers? Of course not, but that doesn't stop me from advertising, or getting frustrated if my work doesn't pan out the way I planned. I'm I entitled to women? No, but that doesn't mean I won't approach or get frustrated at myself for failure.

I know that this is probably not what you want to hear but there are no simple improvements that you can make to drastically increase your cold approach outcomes. The reason why you only got one date out of 96 approaches is due to a combination of multiple factors:

1. Cold approaches have low odds of success to begin with.
2. Cold approaches have become less socially acceptable in recent years.
3. You are approaching much younger women.
4. You are not a natural (most of us aren't), so there is probably some awkwardness to how you initiate conversation with women.

Have you considered abandoning the cold approach in favour of a more targeted strategy?

 

[Plinco]

Have you considered abandoning the cold approach in favour of a more targeted strategy?

Yes. I still want to do a lot of cold approaches as to leave no stone left unturned.


@BeExcellent

I just finished making dozens of corrections of trees from this site

iNaturalist

www.inaturalist.org

if I get really angry and want to spank someone who keeps marking trees in the wrong category, am I being outcome dependent?

 

[Plinco]

@Plinco check out Brent Smith’s stuff , interviews with Cliffs List on YT for example. His approach would be perfect for you (and lines up with SGs advice ). You can see his current lifestyle on his IG .. he’s a super high value guy now these days.

I'll check it out thanks