Post your numbers

[BackInTheGame78]

Bro, those lifts I guarantee would never pass in a powerlifting meet and would be through terrible ranges of motion. I've seen tons of these videos and they are not using good form, even the NFL combine bench press looks horrendous.

Maybe, maybe not. You seem to think becoming strong is far harder than it actually is.

 

[Money & Muscle]

Thanks mate, this is what I will aim for. I’ll bookmark this page and hope in many months to come I’ll break some milestones.

One thing to mention is im overweight, so I’m gonna be cutting for a while so can’t see me getting to any decent increases. Also 2x body weight when I am reasonably lean at say 87KG is much more doable than at my current weight.
As I lean out I guess the target gets easier. Really I am a 87K man with 15KG of dead weight strapped to me so I’ll probably aim for lean numbers if that makes sense

Can I suggest running Phraks Greyskull LP until your numbers plateau for 2-3 weeks? This is to get you a good baseline of strength in every primary movement pattern your body has... it is an excellent starting point for powerlifting or hypertrophy goals.

From there, I suggest 531 or Westside Conjugate for strength goals.
Or
DoggCrapp, then Fortitude or Trained By Jordan Peters for hypertrophy.

Keep your protein up, it'll help spare muscle during a cut. Aim for 1g/lb BW (2.2 g/kg BW). This number stays the same whether cutting or bulking.
If you haven't been properly trained on your powerlifts, check out these.
Bench
Squat
Deadlift

I just lifted like an idiot for over a decade. Don't be like me, learn the movement, then add strength.

 

[sangheilios]

Maybe, maybe not. You seem to think becoming strong is far harder than it actually is.

Bro, you really don't know what you are talking about or even what I'm talking about.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Bro, you really don't know what you are talking about or even what I'm talking about.

 

[Fruitbat]

Can I suggest running Phraks Greyskull LP until your numbers plateau for 2-3 weeks? This is to get you a good baseline of strength in every primary movement pattern your body has... it is an excellent starting point for powerlifting or hypertrophy goals.

From there, I suggest 531 or Westside Conjugate for strength goals.
Or
DoggCrapp, then Fortitude or Trained By Jordan Peters for hypertrophy.

Keep your protein up, it'll help spare muscle during a cut. Aim for 1g/lb BW (2.2 g/kg BW). This number stays the same whether cutting or bulking.
If you haven't been properly trained on your powerlifts, check out these.
Bench
Squat
Deadlift

I just lifted like an idiot for over a decade. Don't be like me, learn the movement, then add strength.

I’ve done a fair bit of work already learning the moves with form.

this is less volume than I’m doing now. I do these moves but also curls, lat PD etc. I squat and deadlift 3X a week and do all those presses and rows 3X a week.

This seems like I’d be done in 25 mins?

plus I can’t do chin ups yet at all

currently running:

(All 2 x 10)

squat
Deadlift
OHP
Seated row
Lat PD
Chest press (either bench or machine)
Preacher curl
Tricep rope pulldown
Sit ups
Calf raises

I do this 3X a week

also - would you do Greyskull on a cut? I’m fat man, I have to cut as priority.

 

[Money & Muscle]

this is less volume than I’m doing now.

Going to ask you a question I don't want you to answer. Is the goal of your training to lift smaller weights many times, or to lift bigger weights and get bigger muscles?
I assume it's the latter of those two. Volume isn't the goal, it's the multiplier.
* The goal for Hypertrophy is proximity to failure (and increasing Mechanical Tension (load)). Ideally, reaching actual failure.
* The goal for Strength training is, well, lifting heavier weights.
* Neither of which rely on volume.

Volume does play a role, but only as a tool to help you achieve heavier weights, or more sets to failure. I only do about 4 sets to failure per muscle, per week and have still been getting significant results from it. My coach is having me run a program starting at 4 sets per muscle per week and that will undulate up to 16 sets to failure per muscle per week, then I will have a nearly 2 week deload to recover from it. I don't recommend this approach for you (or most folks here), but this is just to give you an idea of what the purpose of Volume is.

I do these moves but also curls, lat PD etc. I squat and deadlift 3X a week and do all those presses and rows 3X a week.

So I'm going to reframe training a bit.
* You have Main Work (Bench, Row, Overhead Press, Pull Ups, Squats, and Hinge (Deadlifts)).
* And then you have Accessory Work (literally everything else).

For your Main Work, are you adding 5lbs to every main lift - each time you train? Are you at least adding 5lbs per week per lift? If not, then I'd say you are putting in a lot of effort and not getting a lot of results from it (no offense, truly).

The goal of Phraks is to get your Main Lifts big and strong, and it is not a forever program. You should be adding 5lbs to every lift, every time you train... so less volume, but more progress.


Phraks Greyskull LP will be your Main Work, but you can still add Accessory Work such as Biceps, Abs, Pec Deck/Reverse Peck Deck, Forearms, Calves, Quads, Hams, etc. The thing with Accessory Work is that you can do as much of it as you want - so long as it is not interfering with the progress on your main work. So yes, Phraks may only take you 25 minutes in the gym - make sure you have >75% of your effort being put into those 3 lifts.

I also only recommend running Phraks until you don't see strength gains for 2-3 weeks (assuming Accessory Work has not interfered) in more than half your lifts. Really, you care about Squats, Bench, and Deadlifts - but you would do well to be strong in the rest of those lifts anyways.

would you do Greyskull on a cut? I’m fat man, I have to cut as priority.

Training does not need to change (and probably shouldn't change - dance with the girl you brought with ya) whether bulking or cutting, just give yourself extra leniency on lack of strength gains when cutting.

 

[Nitrozv20]

Bench- 275lbs
Deadlift 405 lbs
squat- 315lbs

5'10 172lbs

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I’ve done a fair bit of work already learning the moves with form.

this is less volume than I’m doing now. I do these moves but also curls, lat PD etc. I squat and deadlift 3X a week and do all those presses and rows 3X a week.

This seems like I’d be done in 25 mins?

plus I can’t do chin ups yet at all

currently running:

(All 2 x 10)

squat
Deadlift
OHP
Seated row
Lat PD
Chest press (either bench or machine)
Preacher curl
Tricep rope pulldown
Sit ups
Calf raises

I do this 3X a week

also - would you do Greyskull on a cut? I’m fat man, I have to cut as priority.

IMO, the fastest way to drop weight is to train intensely with short burst workouts and low rest periods.

Not exactly circuit training but similar in that you are getting both resistance training benefits as well as cardio from raising your heart rate.

My workouts usually last 20-25 minutes but it's typically between 10-30 second rest periods between sets with the majority being 15-20 seconds most weeks.

I would focus on that regardless of what programs you do. That and walking consistently will help you lose weight rapidly assuming your nutrition/diet is on point.

 

[Fruitbat]

IMO, the fastest way to drop weight is to train intensely with short burst workouts and low rest periods.

Not exactly circuit training but similar in that you are getting both resistance training benefits as well as cardio from raising your heart rate.

My workouts usually last 20-25 minutes but it's typically between 10-30 second rest periods between sets with the majority being 15-20 seconds most weeks.

I would focus on that regardless of what programs you do. That and walking consistently will help you lose weight rapidly assuming your nutrition/diet is on point.

thanks BITG - as always, very helpful.

The only disappointment in the thread is learning what a weak pvssy I am. I thought squatting 80KG was quite good

On the basis of this thread I immediately stopped f ing around and put 110K to my deadlift and took the reps down. So my deadlift went up 20KG immediately. I put another 5 on my squat with no issues other than loss of form.
I can’t increase my weight any more on squat, I was very wobbly on last 2 reps.

I genuinely can’t squat more than 85KG for 10 reps. I have no idea how I’ll ever get that to 180KG, it’s so far.

I’m cutting so again I am not expecting to see huge lifts.

to answer your questions:

I am training to look good. Strength is secondary. I’ve no need for huge strength as I’m not in sports etc. I want to look good, that’s it.

also, I don’t see how I can squat to failure. Or bench. I train alone. I can ask for a spot on my bench but no idea how that’s done on a squat.

I regularly increase weight.

My squat was a poxy 60KG when I started and in 5 weeks it’s now at 85KG

 

[Fruitbat]

Going to ask you a question I don't want you to answer. Is the goal of your training to lift smaller weights many times, or to lift bigger weights and get bigger muscles?
I assume it's the latter of those two. Volume isn't the goal, it's the multiplier.
* The goal for Hypertrophy is proximity to failure (and increasing Mechanical Tension (load)). Ideally, reaching actual failure.
* The goal for Strength training is, well, lifting heavier weights.
* Neither of which rely on volume.

Volume does play a role, but only as a tool to help you achieve heavier weights, or more sets to failure. I only do about 4 sets to failure per muscle, per week and have still been getting significant results from it. My coach is having me run a program starting at 4 sets per muscle per week and that will undulate up to 16 sets to failure per muscle per week, then I will have a nearly 2 week deload to recover from it. I don't recommend this approach for you (or most folks here), but this is just to give you an idea of what the purpose of Volume is.


So I'm going to reframe training a bit.
* You have Main Work (Bench, Row, Overhead Press, Pull Ups, Squats, and Hinge (Deadlifts)).
* And then you have Accessory Work (literally everything else).

For your Main Work, are you adding 5lbs to every main lift - each time you train? Are you at least adding 5lbs per week per lift? If not, then I'd say you are putting in a lot of effort and not getting a lot of results from it (no offense, truly).

The goal of Phraks is to get your Main Lifts big and strong, and it is not a forever program. You should be adding 5lbs to every lift, every time you train... so less volume, but more progress.


Phraks Greyskull LP will be your Main Work, but you can still add Accessory Work such as Biceps, Abs, Pec Deck/Reverse Peck Deck, Forearms, Calves, Quads, Hams, etc. The thing with Accessory Work is that you can do as much of it as you want - so long as it is not interfering with the progress on your main work. So yes, Phraks may only take you 25 minutes in the gym - make sure you have >75% of your effort being put into those 3 lifts.

I also only recommend running Phraks until you don't see strength gains for 2-3 weeks (assuming Accessory Work has not interfered) in more than half your lifts. Really, you care about Squats, Bench, and Deadlifts - but you would do well to be strong in the rest of those lifts anyways.


Training does not need to change (and probably shouldn't change - dance with the girl you brought with ya) whether bulking or cutting, just give yourself extra leniency on lack of strength gains when cutting.

I answered some of this in my post above - got mixed up who I was responding to.

thanks for the help.

at 41 am thinking I might need some juice although I tested my test and I’m over 600 so no real issues, I’m growing my lifts ok so maybe not needed.

I also am having one more child so probs best not to f around until I’ve done that.

interestinglt my wife said she won’t mind if I did a cycle!

I just don’t see how I’m almost tripling my lifts in any space of time at 41 with no gear. I’m pushing to the limit and 85k squat x 10 and 110KG deadlift is literally the best I can do at this point without injury or losing form.

depressing AF. However it might be nice to come back to this in 6 months when I’ve done the work

 

[Money & Muscle]

I answered some of this in my post above - got mixed up who I was responding to.

thanks for the help.

at 41 am thinking I might need some juice although I tested my test and I’m over 600 so no real issues, I’m growing my lifts ok so maybe not needed.

I also am having one more child so probs best not to f around until I’ve done that.

interestinglt my wife said she won’t mind if I did a cycle!

I just don’t see how I’m almost tripling my lifts in any space of time at 41 with no gear. I’m pushing to the limit and 85k squat x 10 and 110KG deadlift is literally the best I can do at this point without injury or losing form.

depressing AF. However it might be nice to come back to this in 6 months when I’ve done the work

Well, I wouldn't cycle at 41 as you're already in andropause and intentionally shutting down your balls at that state isn't advisable. But I would recommend getting your Free Test checked via Equilibrium Dialysis for your next checkup. This is a better marker for male sexual health than Total Test.
If your FT is low, I would definitely consider TRT, if accompanied by low T symptoms.

I do recommend having any children you want before doing this, but you can always use HCG to keep your balls going, or to get them fired up again.

 

[Fruitbat]

Well, I wouldn't cycle at 41 as you're already in andropause and intentionally shutting down your balls at that state isn't advisable. But I would recommend getting your Free Test checked via Equilibrium Dialysis for your next checkup. This is a better marker for male sexual health than Total Test.
If your FT is low, I would definitely consider TRT, if accompanied by low T symptoms.

I do recommend having any children you want before doing this, but you can always use HCG to keep your balls going, or to get them fired up again.

fk off am I in my andropause!
I’ve still got it!

On a serious note, I read that cycles are better off being done when older, not to do them in 20s.

 

[Money & Muscle]

On a serious note, I read that cycles are better off being done when older, not to do them in 20s.

well, cycles are dumb to do almost no matter what. If you want steroid gains, you're better off just committing to blast and cruise.

If you're under the age of 25, steroids are not for you.
If you want to have kids, steroids are not for you.
If you're doing them for the attention of women, steroids are not for you.
If you're doing them and haven't yet learnt how to train effectively or eat properly, steroids are not for you.

A cycle shouldn't be done under 25 as you haven't developed the critical thinking capabilities needed to critically assess what you're doing. You also don't want to interfere with any part of your body's natural maturation during the first 25 years of life.

In your 40s, steroid cycles are not advisable only in that your HPTA is already on the downward slope and it's not going to recover as well as someone say 26-39 (kind of arbitrary numbers, but humor me).

That being said, TRT is literally meant for people in their 40s (or anyone with low T concerns), and TRT is literally steroids - just not the crazy ones.

TRT would get you a lot farther than you would think. I've done exactly one steroid blast and bailed before I saw any real results. Right now, I'm basically just on a high dose TRT but with compounds that make less estrogen as im gyno prone.

 

[Fruitbat]

well, cycles are dumb to do almost no matter what. If you want steroid gains, you're better off just committing to blast and cruise.

If you're under the age of 25, steroids are not for you.
If you want to have kids, steroids are not for you.
If you're doing them for the attention of women, steroids are not for you.
If you're doing them and haven't yet learnt how to train effectively or eat properly, steroids are not for you.

A cycle shouldn't be done under 25 as you haven't developed the critical thinking capabilities needed to critically assess what you're doing. You also don't want to interfere with any part of your body's natural maturation during the first 25 years of life.

In your 40s, steroid cycles are not advisable only in that your HPTA is already on the downward slope and it's not going to recover as well as someone say 26-39 (kind of arbitrary numbers, but humor me).

That being said, TRT is literally meant for people in their 40s (or anyone with low T concerns), and TRT is literally steroids - just not the crazy ones.

TRT would get you a lot farther than you would think. I've done exactly one steroid blast and bailed before I saw any real results. Right now, I'm basically just on a high dose TRT but with compounds that make less estrogen as im gyno prone.

ah, I was told by a bro years ago you keep about 50% of gains when you come off, and that you go back to normal without drama.

He had a child in early 40s and he still pretty muscular. I wonder if he’s talking **** and actually he’s never stopped.

I avoid TRT until I have to as I don’t like the idea of being dependent on medicines. For the rest of my life I’ll need to always arrange it.
Plus at 600-700 I don’t need it do it?

I know I need to do the full panel but this level of test is plenty for 41 from what I’ve heard.

that’s why I took offence at your andropause comment. I did research and there’s loads of guys in 20s and 30s lower than that.

 

[Money & Muscle]

Plus at 600-700 I don’t need it do it?

I know I need to do the full panel but this level of test is plenty for 41 from what I’ve heard.

that’s why I took offence at your andropause comment. I did research and there’s loads of guys in 20s and 30s lower than that.

I actually thought you were joking, so my apologies for any offense caused. Andropause kicks in late 30's no matter what, but it's not like menopause - andropause is far more gradual.

The reason I mentioned to get your Free Test checked is that Total Test is an incomplete picture.
High SHBG can mean your above midline TT does little.

Free Test is ultimately the metric that you should follow with regards to sexual function/Low T, but most people (including doctors) are uninformed on that, so they go by the outdated standards that the Endocrine Society recommends (measuring Total Test).

What I'm saying is that you could have fairly high TT and low FT, and still be "low T". Without the specific FT measurement via equilibrium dialysis, it is very hard to determine whether someone is actually a good candidate for TRT.

FWIW, your TT is higher than mine was at 27, looking mostly like I do right now.

I was told by a bro years ago you keep about 50% of gains when you come off, and that you go back to normal without drama.

Kind of. You gain the muscle from excess testosterone, then you stop taking testosterone and your balls aren't working for a few weeks - meaning you're on low to no testosterone... so you lose the muscle.
But you also never really lose muscle - it just kind of goes "dormant". That's a whole other conversation though.

 

[Fruitbat]

I actually thought you were joking, so my apologies for any offense caused. Andropause kicks in late 30's no matter what, but it's not like menopause - andropause is far more gradual.

The reason I mentioned to get your Free Test checked is that Total Test is an incomplete picture.
High SHBG can mean your above midline TT does little.

Free Test is ultimately the metric that you should follow with regards to sexual function/Low T, but most people (including doctors) are uninformed on that, so they go by the outdated standards that the Endocrine Society recommends (measuring Total Test).

What I'm saying is that you could have fairly high TT and low FT, and still be "low T". Without the specific FT measurement via equilibrium dialysis, it is very hard to determine whether someone is actually a good candidate for TRT.

FWIW, your TT is higher than mine was at 27, looking mostly like I do right now.


Kind of. You gain the muscle from excess testosterone, then you stop taking testosterone and your balls aren't working for a few weeks - meaning you're on low to no testosterone... so you lose the muscle.
But you also never really lose muscle - it just kind of goes "dormant". That's a whole other conversation though.

I like this idea. My large gut is just a dormant six pack.

I will have to get the full test done. In my 20s I was whacking it 3 times a day but even with this (relatively high) level of test I’m not like that at all now. Sechs 3X a week for me now is me being super horny. Otherwise I’m kind of take it or leave it. I think stress plays a role. I have hugely more responsibility now which dominates everything. I do also find diet quality makes a huge difference.

I also store fat on my hips and chest which is gyno like (but not gyno) so i can reasonably assume my test is high but the oestrogen is high too

 

[TheGrindEqualsHappiness]

I like this idea. My large gut is just a dormant six pack.

I will have to get the full test done. In my 20s I was whacking it 3 times a day but even with this (relatively high) level of test I’m not like that at all now. Sechs 3X a week for me now is me being super horny. Otherwise I’m kind of take it or leave it. I think stress plays a role. I have hugely more responsibility now which dominates everything. I do also find diet quality makes a huge difference.

I also store fat on my hips and chest which is gyno like (but not gyno) so i can reasonably assume my test is high but the oestrogen is high too

Well, here's my two cents:
1. If you've lacked consistency before, the first priority is to make sure that for the next 40+ years you will lift consistently with decent programs and eat a diet with enough protein. That will do wonders.Dial in the habit now.

2. Maintaining(your weight) is crap. Couple of months maintaining here and there is ok. But if you want results you should be either cutting or slowly bulking. My suggestion is to start by cutting slowly first untill you at least see the outlines of your abs. Then maintain a month and start slow 3 to 4 months of bulk. Do it slow enough so you wont get too fat too fast. During cutting don't expect your strength levels to improve. Then during bulking progress is much more likely than if you just maintained.

You can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time when in beginner phase while maintaining, but after a while it will get really difficult.


I would stay away from steroids untill you really know where you are getting into. When you are over 40 torn tendons are really hard to recover from fully.

 

[Nitrozv20]

10k steps a day minimum
Caloric deficit with 1g of protein per body weight per day
resistance training 3-5x a week

track your macros daily and hit them.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

10k steps a day minimum
Caloric deficit with 1g of protein per body weight per day
resistance training 3-5x a week

track your macros daily and hit them.

I'd also add in fasting twice a week, it's the method I have used every time I need to drop weight and it comes off quickly.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

290lb Squat
385 DL
225 bench
150 OHP/rows

6'180

I focus on good form above all else, full ROMs and slow tempos. I've also never used straps or belts or anything.

Chin ups and dips are probably where my strength is showcased most