On the "Red Pill", disillusionment and total freedom. (Also, a question for Rollo.)

[EastWind]

Being able to hop on a plane and go to Hawaii is more of a luxury than a freedom. You might have the freedom to do it, but can you afford it? Can you have the "freedom" to live in a mansion? You can if you've got the money. Money can buy a lot of freedom, no argument there.

Aristippus makes a lot of sense here. You don't have to work for someone else's dream, but sometimes you can work on someone else's dream while you're working toward your own. Work is honorable, and is expected of men. Freedom is good, but don't fall into the trap of sacrificing your future just so you can play around today. At least have a plan, preferably with some backup options.

Of course it's nice to be able to hop on a plane to Hawaii, but I don't feel the need to. Flying to Hawaii on a whim is, like most "totally fun" things, and short-term activity.

My concern is how to make the whole of my life comfortable. The day you realise you don't need to "go on vacation" anymore because you don't feel exhausted from life is the day you are free, in a way.

About the whole "work in honorable" thing. More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a sham, mostly because it hinges on the definition of the word "honorable", which is a very personal definition IN ADDITION to being defined by society in general, and society is made up mostly of jealous, enslaved and idiotic people. Much the same goes for "expected of men".

The only thing I truly have to do is make sure I have something to eat and a place to stay, preferably of a durable nature.

Of course, if your idea of a comfortable life is a garage full of fast cars, lots of respect in a career and being able to boss less important people around, you do need to conform to someone else's dream for most of your life because you rely on his system to feel good.

Most of all this boils down to your dependence on other people. I've never been overly fond of most people and I've found that the more I reduce the number of people I'm truly depending on, be it in material goods or in intellectual ones, the happier and freer I've been. You have to realize that most of what we do is to fulfill someone's expectations. Most of how we ACT is to the same end.

 

[zekko]

About the whole "work in honorable" thing. More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a sham, mostly because it hinges on the definition of the word "honorable", which is a very personal definition IN ADDITION to being defined by society in general, and society is made up mostly of jealous, enslaved and idiotic people. Much the same goes for "expected of men".

The only thing I truly have to do is make sure I have something to eat and a place to stay, preferably of a durable nature.

For the most part, if you're going to eat and have a roof over your head, you're going to have to put in work to get it. Many people who survive off the land work harder than people who buy food in a grocery store.

I'm probably more materialistic than I care to admit, but I have long admired people who practice asceticism. Freeing themselves from burdening possessions and unnecessary expenses. I've read about people who live in the woods in India. They just have a little shack there, no jobs, and eat off the land. That's about as far from the rat race as you can get.

 

[C-quenced]

Of course it's nice to be able to hop on a plane to Hawaii, but I don't feel the need to. Flying to Hawaii on a whim is, like most "totally fun" things, and short-term activity.

My concern is how to make the whole of my life comfortable. The day you realise you don't need to "go on vacation" anymore because you don't feel exhausted from life is the day you are free, in a way.

About the whole "work in honorable" thing. More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a sham, mostly because it hinges on the definition of the word "honorable", which is a very personal definition IN ADDITION to being defined by society in general, and society is made up mostly of jealous, enslaved and idiotic people. Much the same goes for "expected of men".

The only thing I truly have to do is make sure I have something to eat and a place to stay, preferably of a durable nature.

Of course, if your idea of a comfortable life is a garage full of fast cars, lots of respect in a career and being able to boss less important people around, you do need to conform to someone else's dream for most of your life because you rely on his system to feel good.

Most of all this boils down to your dependence on other people. I've never been overly fond of most people and I've found that the more I reduce the number of people I'm truly depending on, be it in material goods or in intellectual ones, the happier and freer I've been. You have to realize that most of what we do is to fulfill someone's expectations. Most of how we ACT is to the same end.

Sentence by sentence and with amazing precision you been describing my present outlook on life. The current economic conditions and the innate greed among men and women alike has set me on an entirely new path to true freedom and prosperity. I don't want any involvement in the rat race, slaving away my life and pointlessly competing with your average day moron for crumbs all while having to take orders from tyrannical bosses on a power trip. The only thing that matters to the big corporations is your hard work which they expect to capitalize from. Unfortunately he who controls the resources (money) also makes the rules. Remember that prior to employment you are also required to sign away some of your rights, therefore when you are dependent on someone else to be able to sustain the roof over your head, running water and the food on your table you are not truly free.

Due to many distractions in my personal life I have been unable to obtain my degree in electrical engineering. Regardless my studies and experiences in this field is one of my top priorities because this is something I have a legitimate passion for. However throughout the past year I have also become more entrepreneurial and business oriented and while it's been a brutal learning experience for me the skies are starting to clear up and I should be able to take it off the ground sometime within the coming months. Just like yourself I am only looking to make the whole of my life comfortable but you also have to be realistic about it because if you want your freedom then you will have to be willing to work and hold yourself responsible for it. When it comes to hard work however do not be afraid of it but also be sure to work efficiently. Be certain that the time and investments you are putting forth are going to work to your favor.

I feel the same about reducing your dependency on others but unfortunately it's not entirely possible especially from a business perspective. You have to be able to fulfill others expectations and add value to their lives otherwise you're toast but as I mentioned before, if you want freedom then you will have to work and possibly even fight for it.

The only suggestion I have for the moment is to find something you truly enjoy doing and find ways to earn an honest living off of it. This also includes not having to sacrifice your humanity for the sake of lining someone elses pockets with gold while having very little return on your part.

 

[C-quenced]

For the most part, if you're going to eat and have a roof over your head, you're going to have to put in work to get it. Many people who survive off the land work harder than people who buy food in a grocery store.

I would actually enjoy fishing, hunting, growing my own foods and getting my own fresh water. It's actually a dream of mine. I don't need a mansion or a luxury car nor have any desire for it. I find inner peace staring into the night skies. Cheesy but it's also a true story.

I'm probably more materialistic than I care to admit, but I have long admired people who practice asceticism. Freeing themselves from burdening possessions and unnecessary expenses. I've read about people who live in the woods in India. They just have a little shack there, no jobs, and eat off the land. That's about as far from the rat race as you can get.

I highly disagree. Asceticism, while not commonly practiced, is an extreme of it's own. Not only is it primitive but it's just merely... "existing". To me it's two sides of the same coin, the difference being that in the rat race you're only existing for someone else to build THEIR dreams off your labor. Many people may have no problem with this and I don't intend to disrespect their decisions, but to each their own.

 

[backbreaker]

I'm not materialistic per say; there are things I set out to get, and once i got them i was good. I always wanted to drive a nice car. I like nice cars. I drive a nice car. wanted a nice house. I own a nice house. but i don't buy **** for the sake of buying ****.

But I'm a pretty high maintenance guy. I'm not so much materialistic as much as I am just high maintenance. I like my massages, i get my nails done, hair cut weekly, see a chiropractor 1-2 times a month, gym membership, i like to go out.

And I mean, if it's not your thing it's not your thing. I can't tell a guy how to live his life. But ****, don't tell me how to live my either lol. Nothing pisses me off more than when some dude comes over my house and tries to tell me my **** is unnecessary or how i have too many clothes or this or that and I'm like dude STFU lol. BETA game at it's finest.

I like fishing, **** i grew up fishing i'm from the south, but i also like going to the beach as well. I like to travel I like to do ****. You only live once and this is how i want to live my life.

Pook once said something that was remarkably true one day.. he said the difference between the player and the AFC in essence is the difference between a poor and a rich crack addict lol. I've always agreed with that; both of you have a need that you can't control; one just has more access to it than the other.

That's kinda how i see this, in this sense. Guys who blow money just for the sake of blowing money are no different to me then guys who try to be frugal just to shunt he world and show how much they don't need the **** they are shunning. Both of you are seeking approval, you are just going about it in different ways.

to me, it's about doing **** you want to do. Objeictivsm at it's finest. you want a car buy a ****ing car. i don't have to explain **** to anyone. it's my life. if you don't want to buy a car, don't buy a car. screw what the girls will think. But don't do either with the intent of trying to impress someone else.

 

[LiveFreeX]

Popping red pills are great but when you find out you have a terminal illness or a baby coming, there isn't enough red pill to make you feel secure. I know the number one thing on my mind when my life flashed before my eyes was that I would not get the opportunity to have children. The rat race suddenly didn't seem so bad and having a simple life and a wife looked fairly attractive. When I was told I would live, I knew right then and there, I wouldn't question the miracle that had just taken place before my eyes.

I have a great wife, she is like a house plant, I give her a hug and a bit of fertilizer in the morning and that keeps her pretty happy for the day. I go to work, I don't love my job but I have a nice life to look forward to and children to carry on my name.

It really is essential that you find the right woman. Some can make you feel powerful and that everyday is a new adventure.
Some can make you feel like sh1t and that every day is a great ordeal. Its generally the adventurers who make it.

DONT DATE WESTERNIZED WOMEN

 

[PlayHer Man]

I think the ultimate message here to take away from all the posts is: Live the life you want to live.

Don't do ANYTHING for the sake of impressing others or seeking their approval. Such behavior is never fulfilling long-term. Its empty and shallow because at the end of the day you are basically saying you are so worthless and incompetent as a human being that you can only feel good about your behavior if some other goof gives you the "ok" or thumbs up--> first. You place the opinions of others above your own as if other people are better than you by default :crazy:

Everyone is ultimately out for themselves and their own best interests. So living life to impress others is a fools game. People only care what you do to the degree that it impacts THEIR life. This is why we don't cry when we hear on the news another soldier got killed in Iraq, yet we cry for a family member or some celeb like Michael Jackson. The soldier in Iraq doesn't really impact our day to day life.. so while we tell ourselves we give a f*ck.. we really don't. For the most part human's follow the "what you eat doesn't make me sh!t" way of thinking. If their life isn't impacted.. then they don't give a sh!t.

Peoples obsession with celebrities seems to contradict this rule right? But it really doesn't if you pay attention. Sure, people get sad when Katy Perry gets a divorce, or their favorite sports team loses. But that's because people often live through others. Their own lives are meaningless or boring.. so they create this internal fantasy land where sports and celebrities actually matter. Their sports team becomes an extension of them as well as their favorite celebs do. So when bad things happen.. they feel the pain as if they are involved. Otherwise, they wouldn't give a sh!t.

 

[Burroughs]

Esther Vilar

Here is a list of issues which I recognized in the original book to be men's most significant disadvantages compared to women.

1. Men are conscripted; women are not.

2. Men are sent to fight in wars; women are not.

3. Men retire later than women (even though, due to their lower life-expectancy,
they should have the right to have the right to retire earlier).

4. Men have almost no influence over their reproduction (for males, there is neither
a pill nor abortion - they can only get the children women want them to have).

5. Men support women; women never, or only temporarily, support men.

6. Men work all their lives; women work only temporarily or not at all.

7. Even though men work all their lives, and women work only temporarily or not at
all, on average, men are poorer than women.

8. Men only `borrow' their children; woman can keep them (as men work all their
lives and women do not, men are automatically robbed of their children in cases of separation - with the reasoning that they have to work).

As one can see, if anything, the female position of power has only consolidated. Today a career in the military is also open to women in many countries - but without conscription for all. Many achieved for themselves the right to practice their job for the same number of years as their male colleagues - however, the retirement age was not increased for all of us. And now as before, it does not occur to the underprivileged to fight against this grotesque state of affairs.

 

[Warrior74]

I think the ultimate message here to take away from all the posts is: Live the life you want to live.

Don't do ANYTHING for the sake of impressing others or seeking their approval. Such behavior is never fulfilling long-term. Its empty and shallow because at the end of the day you are basically saying you are so worthless and incompetent as a human being that you can only feel good about your behavior if some other goof gives you the "ok" or thumbs up--> first. You place the opinions of others above your own as if other people are better than you by default :crazy:

Be the person who gives approval. If we are all approval seeking monkey's wrapped in suits, be the one who gives the approval. It puts you in a power position to take it away or dictate what gets your approval. Of course it goes without saying, it's a power that can be easily misused.

 

[EastWind]

That's kinda how i see this, in this sense. Guys who blow money just for the sake of blowing money are no different to me then guys who try to be frugal just to shunt he world and show how much they don't need the **** they are shunning. Both of you are seeking approval, you are just going about it in different ways.

You misunderstand me. I'm not trying to shunt the world or show how little I need something, I truly feel BETTER, FREER the less stuff I have.

Ok, so I want to have a nice house one day. A small one that's enough for me. This is not so I can feel like hot **** for having a house, I want the (relative) safety of my own, paid-for place. The apartment I have right now is too big for me and I made the mistake of buying furniture I thought would be great and useful and which I don't bloody need. I spend most of my weekends at my dad's place anyway and during the week I'm out of the house most of the time or taking care of business on my computer.

So I made a mistake that'll cost me in money when I get rid of the stuff (as soon as I find a smaller apartment.) And you know what? I don't care. Most of the stuff I have is weighing me down, more and more I realize what I truly need to live. I wouldn't want to miss my computer because so much of what I like doing is possible only with it. Apart from that, I want a nice small apartment with a view and if possible, a small garden or a balcony. A bed, a table, a few personal belongings, a few books. This is what I need.

We buy all this stuff and we don't realize that it's there once we have to drag it around. I'm not questioning anyone's right to buy this stuff, seriously, I'm way past even wanting to lecture others on it. What I'm describing here is only my point of view. But how much of your time is spent just taking care of your stuff? I know I spend way too much time taking care of stuff I don't want to take care of. Just the thought of having to drag that heavy-ass couch around for years to come (because I'm not going to buy a new one without a good reason) is enough to depress me. I'm not saying I want to live out of a backpack, but not too far from it.

This is because I haven't settled yet. I know I'm not going to stay where I am today (geographically and professionally), so I'm not getting too cozy. If I do find the place I want to settle down with (possibly with a woman), I probably will get a bit more stuff.

Watch the beginning of Fight Club, the part where he describes his shallow empty life that is made meaningful by all this stuff he's buying. Obviously I'm not suggesting you blow up your apartment and join a fist-fight club (but if you want to, then I suggest you do just that), but watching the movie again the other day really hit home. I'm not going to blow up my apartment, but he's right,our lives are cluttered and that makes us slow, it prevents us from changing things because we feel there'd be too many strings attached, too much to think of, so we stay in our old life.

This world view isn't all-encompassing and it's growing, obviously there will be cases where I will have to revise some points. I'm not yet brave enough to act upon all my desires. I haven't sold all the stuff I don't need because I don't have a new apartment yet, but believe me, when I have a smaller one I will think long and hard about what I truly, absolutely need in it.

Same goes for the job. I'm not too happy at the moment with the day-to-day routine. I'm not at all happy with the fact that I have to ask for permission if I want to take off for a few days or that I can only do that for a limited number of days per year. But at the same time it is clear to me that I shouldn't take a rash decision, yet also try to think clearly about what I want to have.

Due to many distractions in my personal life I have been unable to obtain my degree in electrical engineering. Regardless my studies and experiences in this field is one of my top priorities because this is something I have a legitimate passion for. However throughout the past year I have also become more entrepreneurial and business oriented and while it's been a brutal learning experience for me the skies are starting to clear up and I should be able to take it off the ground sometime within the coming months. Just like yourself I am only looking to make the whole of my life comfortable but you also have to be realistic about it because if you want your freedom then you will have to be willing to work and hold yourself responsible for it. When it comes to hard work however do not be afraid of it but also be sure to work efficiently. Be certain that the time and investments you are putting forth are going to work to your favor.

I'm truly impressed that you have been able to make your own way. As of yet I have no entrepreneurial skills and no idea how to go about getting them, save for trying, and I'm still - as pointed out above - not brave enough.

Esther Vilar

Here is a list of issues which I recognized in the original book to be men's most significant disadvantages compared to women.

1. Men are conscripted; women are not.

2. Men are sent to fight in wars; women are not.

3. Men retire later than women (even though, due to their lower life-expectancy,
they should have the right to have the right to retire earlier).

4. Men have almost no influence over their reproduction (for males, there is neither
a pill nor abortion - they can only get the children women want them to have).

5. Men support women; women never, or only temporarily, support men.

6. Men work all their lives; women work only temporarily or not at all.

7. Even though men work all their lives, and women work only temporarily or not at
all, on average, men are poorer than women.

8. Men only `borrow' their children; woman can keep them (as men work all their
lives and women do not, men are automatically robbed of their children in cases of separation - with the reasoning that they have to work).

As one can see, if anything, the female position of power has only consolidated. Today a career in the military is also open to women in many countries - but without conscription for all. Many achieved for themselves the right to practice their job for the same number of years as their male colleagues - however, the retirement age was not increased for all of us. And now as before, it does not occur to the underprivileged to fight against this grotesque state of affairs.

Yeah, I read that book. It's a good book and she sees things how they are.

However.

I've found that categorically shunning women hasn't worked for me. Maybe it's because my life is not, as of yet, so great and interesting that I don't... well, need, a woman in it. Possibly that puts me at a great risk. Probably, even. But I've also found that repressing your nature is not very healthy. My nature as a man is to be attracted to women. My answer for now is to screen, screen, screen, minimize the risk. I'll never get it down to zero.

Burroughs, I really respect you, I used to think you were a frustrated nut but I've come around to seeing - truly understanding - the extreme point of view you're advocating.

Perhaps I'm just not strong enough yet to fully live by it.

 

[backbreaker]

You misunderstand me.

who said i was referring to you in the first place. i didn't quote you. i was just speaking my mind

 

[zekko]

About the whole "work in honorable" thing. More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a sham, mostly because it hinges on the definition of the word "honorable", which is a very personal definition IN ADDITION to being defined by society in general, and society is made up mostly of jealous, enslaved and idiotic people. Much the same goes for "expected of men".

If you want to eat, you're going to work, and that is honorable. If you can work for yourself, so much the better, but one way or another you're going to work. If you enjoy your work (like C-quenced there), so much the better, but you're still going to work. The alternative is to be a freeloader, and that is dishonorable. There's no sham involved.

 

[PlayHer Man]

If you want to eat, you're going to work, and that is honorable. If you can work for yourself, so much the better, but one way or another you're going to work. If you enjoy your work (like C-quenced there), so much the better, but you're still going to work. The alternative is to be a freeloader, and that is dishonorable. There's no sham involved.

The only alternative to work is not "freeloading". This is what modern society WANTS you to believe so that you fall in line and spend your entire life working for others.

There are a number of ways to "not have to work" or to "work very little" while still having enough money / resources to support yourself. The most obvious one is being wealthy and having enough money that you don't need to work. However, that is often not the most realistic goal to have in life.

Here are three more ways:

1. Live of your investments

2. Own Real Estate you can rent out at a profit

3. Own a farm and live off it

If your definition of "work" is getting out of bed and doing things outside of eating, f*cking and sleeping.. then YES.. we all have to "work". My definition of "work" is laboring for the needs of others according to the rules of others. I don't consider it "work" when I'm my own boss.

If you live off your own farm.. you will often have to labor to take care of your crops and live stock. The difference is.. no one can "fire you". No one tells you what time to wake up, arrive and leave. You have no one to "report to".

The same is true for renting out Real Estate. If you live off the rental income.. you don't have a "boss". You really don't work at all. Yet you are not "free loading" because you're providing others with a place to live for a fee.

 

[EastWind]

If you live off your own farm.. you will often have to labor to take care of your crops and live stock. The difference is.. no one can "fire you". No one tells you what time to wake up, arrive and leave. You have no one to "report to".

Well, you do report to the livestock. And the crops. And they will let you feel it when you've forgotten them...

 

[backbreaker]

If you want to eat, you're going to work, and that is honorable. If you can work for yourself, so much the better, but one way or another you're going to work. If you enjoy your work (like C-quenced there), so much the better, but you're still going to work. The alternative is to be a freeloader, and that is dishonorable. There's no sham involved.

even when you work for yourself you are working for someone else. I work for anyone who is paying me money. they are my boss.

 

[EastWind]

If you want to eat, you're going to work, and that is honorable. If you can work for yourself, so much the better, but one way or another you're going to work. If you enjoy your work (like C-quenced there), so much the better, but you're still going to work. The alternative is to be a freeloader, and that is dishonorable. There's no sham involved.

In my opinion, you're creating a false dichotomy. Or perhaps it's all a matter of definitions. I believe that once I'll have found what I really like to do - if ever, I'll stop working because it won't be work anymore.

But to say that anyone who doesn't work is a freeloader, well, then as PlayHer Man pointed out, it comes down to your definition of work. I don't plan to be a freeloader, but, then again if someone gave me ten millions for free, who would I be to refuse? Would you refuse them out of honor?

This is all new to me as well, but who is to say what's dishonorable or not? If you go way back down the logic tree, nature doesn't care for honor, it cares for who survives. We shouldn't go back to those times for obvious reasons, but in my eyes once you embark on the "respectful" or "honorable" track you are following definitions set by other people, or society as a whole, and then you're opening Pandora's box, because those definitions can change at a moment's notice.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

In my opinion, you're creating a false dichotomy. Or perhaps it's all a matter of definitions. I believe that once I'll have found what I really like to do - if ever, I'll stop working because it won't be work anymore.

This is as good as a definition of the "meaning of life" as you're gonna get.

Finding that optimum balance between the portion of your "working" time that you actually enjoy, and that portion that you're doing to earn money, either by selling your services or helping to build something to sell to somebody.

Obviously, many people work their whole lives hating every second of it. Call this "labor."

Then there's the lucky few that simply follow their "passion," and get paid huge amounts of cash.

To the extent that you don't hate your job so much you strangle everybody around you and then off yourself, you might say that all money comes from:

Labor + Passion = Wealth

Most folks are heavy on the labor, light on the passion.

Some folks are heavy on the passion, but don't create much of value.

The trick is to minimize labor, and maximize passion and wealth.

The more skills you get, the more understanding you have, the lower your time preference, the more experience you get, the more likely this will happen.

Of course, one of the biggest destroyers of wealth, once you figure out how to get it, is other people, who's idea of getting wealth is covertly stealing it from others (governments and a certain class of women, to name a couple).

 

[EastWind]

This is as good as a definition of the "meaning of life" as you're gonna get.

Finding that optimum balance between the portion of your "working" time that you actually enjoy, and that portion that you're doing to earn money, either by selling your services or helping to build something to sell to somebody.

Obviously, many people work their whole lives hating every second of it. Call this "labor."

Then there's the lucky few that simply follow their "passion," and get paid huge amounts of cash.

To the extent that you don't hate your job so much you strangle everybody around you and then off yourself, you might say that all money comes from:

Labor + Passion = Wealth

Most folks are heavy on the labor, light on the passion.

Some folks are heavy on the passion, but don't create much of value.

The trick is to minimize labor, and maximize passion and wealth.

The more skills you get, the more understanding you have, the lower your time preference, the more experience you get, the more likely this will happen.

Of course, one of the biggest destroyers of wealth, once you figure out how to get it, is other people, who's idea of getting wealth is covertly stealing it from others (governments and a certain class of women, to name a couple).

This is very well put. As to the certain class of women out to steal your money, I'm still unsure whether there's any other class, the mysterious "quality woman" who truly sees the relationship as "the two of us will conquer the world".

 

[zekko]

My definition of "work" is laboring for the needs of others according to the rules of others. I don't consider it "work" when I'm my own boss.

I disagree with your definition of "work". Let's just take the first definition that came up when I Googled the word: "Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result." There's no necessity implied to work FOR someone else, although as Backbreaker points out, even if you have your own business you're working for your clients.

If you have a farm, you have to work the farm. If you buy a farm, you have to put in work to pay for it, one way or another. If you rent out real estate, you are responsible for maintaining it, which takes work, even if it's just finding the right person to pay to do it. If you have investments, you have to work to manage them. Not to mention you have to have money to buy investments. You have to work, even if it's just a "four hour work week".

The only way out of working to support yourself is if your family was wealthy and left you their money. But even in that case, they put in the work to get wealthy so that you didn't have to.

So again, I say, it is HONORABLE to work, or else you are a freeloader. Unless you think some magic fairy is going to come down and hand you a load of money guilt free so you can have food and shelter. I'm not saying you have to be held down to a 9 to 5 job - if you're clever enough to avoid that, good for you. But you have to do SOMETHING to get your money, or else you are a sponge parasite.

 

[backbreaker]

The smart / happy people don't try to get out of doing working for someone else, they figure out how to make as many people as much money as they can.

that's the difference between me the guy who owns the web development company and my employees who just work to get paid. I want everyone I work for to be wildly successful. I will rebuild a site for free if I think we can do it better. I've done that before.

REAL independence does not come from not working or not needing, it comes from being needed. The more intangled that I am in everyone's success the more invauablle I am, the more independent i can afford to be.

Half my work just about comes from past clients. I don't even have to roll out of bed to get half my company's work anymore, clients go out of their way to bring it to us. That's independence. I can play with my son, play with the wifey all day long and still make money. Still make more money than probably everyone here being honest. And that took a lot of hard, roll up your sleeves, what.. when did I start this company.. 2007, that's 6 years of working on weekends, working on holidays, working for free to get to the point where I am now where I can be indpendant if i so chose.