Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

On the "Red Pill", disillusionment and total freedom. (Also, a question for Rollo.)

EastWind

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So, after reading through the most prominent articles of Rollo's, Roissy's and some of Dalrock's, alongside this comment and this comment by Mark Minter, I've reached a point of depression and giddiness at the same time.

Their take on the female imperative, female behavior, marriage, relationships and everything else rings so true to me, it's unbelievable. I find it impossible that any guy could read these posts, then go back outside and compare what he sees and what he has experienced and is experiencing to what he has read and not see the truth in it. Maybe the reason this understanding comes naturally to me is because I've seen and experienced enough (emotional) pain at the hands of fellow humans to know for damn certain a human being is capable of just about anything given the right circumstances, and maybe it's because I've dabbled in this "game" and "manosphere" stuff for near to ten years now, ever since I was 15, so I am actually an example of someone who was, in a way, brought up with it.

And I see the divorce rate and the **** carousel riders and my friends who get knocked around by their girls and my colleague who announced he's going to be a daddy and he's so happy and, isn't life full of miracles, both methods of contraception they were using failed at the same time, what a coincidence, and he's an engineer who deals with fail rates, no less. So now he's going to be a daddy on a PhD salary because his girl will stay at home and, what do you know, the baby's due two months after she's getting her degree, another happy coincidence.

And I'm starting to wake up, not from the dream of happy equal relationships, I had forgotten that years ago, but from everything, and I realize:

The true red pill doesn't tell you, as a man, that women are sh1t-testing you, it makes you see that everything and everyone in your life and society is grooming you up to be a provider, to be someone who does work for other people's benefits, to give your money and LIFE for some cause that is not your own.

It's enough to seriously depress a man. This had been creeping up in the back of my head for some time now, Rollo and co. just had the words to give it a shape; that most of what we do is utterly pointless if we let go of trying to obtain women. Suddenly nothing matters much anymore.

I'm supposed to get a good education, a steady job, a comfortable apartment, for what? Other people tell me it's so I can take care of a family, but now the only reason for me to do so is for my security and convenience, I find myself planning out my life without a woman, with a comfortable minimum of expenditures and "furnitures" and a maximum of free time and enjoyable activities, with a job that provides me with enough cash to live, do the things I like and put some on the side in case I do get old.

But it's scary. It's ****ing scary, believe me. Suddenly the questions everybody is asking, here and in real life, i.e. "how can I get a girlfriend?", "how can I get laid?", "what will I do/what will become of my family if I lose my job?", they lose all their importance. I find myself wondering why I should have to head to some place everyday, whether I want to or not, whether it's interesting or not, when I could be doing more enjoyable things, and no matter how much you love your work, there's always more enjoyable things than work. My PhD topic is somewhat interesting, but I'm pissed off by the "office politics" going on at my institute, even though it's a bloody university, and you know what? If I leave, or am made to leave, it doesn't matter because I only have myself to take care of.

So a side effect of realizing that you will never find a woman who will be thankful for the sacrifices you make for her is utter and total freedom. And freedom is huge, and it's scary. And I can't handle it. I'm sticking with my position because, well, it's somewhat interesting, but mainly because I don't know what else to do. I've never been prepared for this, never been told that dreams can be reached, how to reach them.

And another thing is, and this is for you, Rollo, well, what about women now? I'm 25, I'm eligible, and every woman my age, even the nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, intelligent ones, who gives me serious attention creeps me out because I know what she's really after.

The Red Pill makes you see that the only people who love you for who you truly are is your parents, if you're lucky, and every other person in this world is going to expect something from an association with you, with women expecting your life for it. And this is why we cry so miserably when our parents die (I did when my mom died), it's the subconscious knowledge that no-one will love us like they did, be there for us like they were, without expecting anything in return, simply because it was us.

All my friends and family tell me, well, yes, bad things could happen to you, but you just have to find the RIGHT girl, and in my eyes all of them are insane. This isn't like having to take the right street in a peaceful German town or you'll get mugged, this is like walking around Johannesburg blindfolded.

I'm not trying to fight the concepts, I see their truth. But I can bloody well be disgusted at the way the world works.

So what about the "giddiness" I talked about up there? Well, feeling free makes you giddy. It makes you VERY giddy. The feeling that your life isn't planned out or that there's only one true possible path is positively exhilarating. But it's also extremely scary.
 

Aristippus

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There are a few good women out there. A minority might be worth marrying, but it's totally unnecessary. Regardless, your freedom and happiness are the most important things. Other people would rather you do what they do. It makes you more like them. Then there are a few people that want you to do the same thing over and over because they want you to be their slave, whether they realize it or not. Whether they are conscious of it or not.

A man who is aware of his freedom can't be easily controlled. He doesn't make a good slave and he refuses to spend most of his time slaving away only to have other people reap the benefits of his labor while he is left with scraps. This is why you were never taught how to open your own business in school. You're always taught that working for others is the way to go. I think for some people this might be true but it's funny that the choice of going into business for yourself isn't really talked about in school but that being an employee to someone else is usually the idea that is pushed.

Neither one is wrong, and some employees can make more as an employee than if they tried to open their own business. I do think though that it benefits a few people for the majority not to have a more independent mindset. It doesn't even have to be about business. People must learn to question things more often. I simply used business as one example. Some customs and habits are useful and serve a good purpose. They aren't all bad. Other ideas are harmful.

Any time you notice an institution where one group feels cheated while the other group doesn't, you will usually find that the group that benefits from that institution is strongly in favor of it. I'm not saying there is an evil conspiracy out there. I'm simply saying that if you're not the one feeling the pain, if you're not the one suffering, if your life is actually made easier because of it, and if you never question ideas and just accept them without an ounce of reflection or evaluation, it can easily happen.

I think that's where we are with the female entitlement mentality and marriage these days. They benefit greatly, and since they don't feel the pain of the sacrifices the man has to make, they can't understand why a man wouldn't want to marry. The female entitlement mentality is all gain and no pain for women but because it's an entitlement mentality instead of an attitude of thankfulness and gratitude, there's no room for appreciation or sympathy. This is part of the reason why it can be hard to find a woman you'd actually want to marry. They are out there though but your life's meaning isn't dependent on whether or not you find a wife.
 

zekko

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Just remember that Rollo is happilly married before you decide what is and isn't possible.
 

Lexington

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Ever since I was a kid, I loved wildlife documentaries. I still love watching documentaries about the savannah in Africa. You have lions, leopards, hyenas, elephants, zebras and wildebeest all struggling to do the same thing: survive and reproduce. That's it.

Our intelligence evolved as a tool for survival. It has worked remarkably well. It has worked so well that for the majority of Westerners, survival is something that is pretty much assured. Even if you are dirt poor, you will be provided with food, water, healthcare and shelter by the government or charitable organizations.

A lion faces far worse struggles than most humans. If he can't catch prey, he starves. If he wants to mate, he must risk potentially fatal confrontations with other lions. Even relatively minor injuries like a broken leg could cost him his life. Lionesses are incapable of loving him, and care only for his genes and his ability to protect them and their cubs.

What's the point I'm getting at? The point is, our ability to think is mostly a blessing, but it is also the cause of much of our despair. Even though most lions have it much worse than you or I, they don't ponder the sh*ttiness of their condition. They are just focused on doing what it is that they need to do at any given moment.

The Game is what it is. Don't over analyze it. Understand its mechanics and use your knowledge as a tool to help you accomplish your objectives. But ultimately, despairing that women will never love you unconditionally is like getting angry with a lion for snapping the neck of a baby zebra.
 

EastWind

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Aristippus said:
I do think though that it benefits a few people for the majority not to have a more independent mindset.
This had occurred to me as well. Very true, of course.

Aristippus said:
They are out there though but your life's meaning isn't dependent on whether or not you find a wife.
Statistically, of course they have to be out there, but as someone with a grasp of math and numbers I find it safer not to rely on .1% odds.

I wasn't implying my life's meaning is dependent on it - maybe I expressed this insufficiently, but my current crisis is due more to the fact that I'm at a loss what direction to take now that they are all open to me. In fact, I've assumed I won't get married for a long time.

Danger said:
So now, you are at a point in life where you value systems will start to shift. And that is a very difficult for people at any age. At 25 you are still young enough that they can change without destroying you. The important part to realize is that you still have a great life to live to your benefit, and to employ your newfound realizations to make that life come true.
The big, scary thing is to have so many possibilities and to have never been taught what to make of them. Or, worse, to have been taught that it's crucial not to pick "wrong" ones (whatever those are) and to fail.

zekko said:
Just remember that Rollo is happilly married before you decide what is and isn't possible.
I wonder, from his posts, how much work being happily married is to him and whether, with his current knowledge and if he were 25, he would do it all again?

Lexington said:
But ultimately, despairing that women will never love you unconditionally is like getting angry with a lion for snapping the neck of a baby zebra.
As stated above, my crisis is not despair over what I have seen cannot be, but over having never been taught what else to do.
 

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backbreaker

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As stated above, my crisis is not despair over what I have seen cannot be, but over having never been taught what else to do.
there is a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous

"you aren't responsible for your disease, but you are responsible for your recovery"


there is nothing you can do about the situations and circumstances that led you here, about society not preparing you for how the dating game really is. To ***** and moan about that is no different than a drunk moaning about how hard he had it growing up and saying **** like "well if you had my parents/wife/job you'd drink too"

but now that you have successfully diagnosed the problem, you can recover. That's all you can do.

In the end if you play your cards right, you are going to be better off than all those guys who don't have to go what you went through to get here. I am a drug addict (8 years clean 2 months ago) but you know what, today beucase i don't drink, drug whatsoever I'm in the best shape of my life and in better shape than anyone i know my age. Also (for the most part) I learned how to deal with a lot of issues that people struggle with like anger, resentment, patience, tolerance, acceptance.

East, you are responsible for what happens now.

I wonder, from his posts, how much work being happily married is to him and whether, with his current knowledge and if he were 25, he would do it all again?
I will have been married for 2 years in 2 months (actually **** to the day 2 months lol)

You are putting the cart before the horse. You don't know what you will and will not do 5-10 years from now. **** you don't know what you are going to do tomorrow.

Just learn, and practice and see where it takes you. Don't mindfvck yourself by planning your entire life right now. When i was 24, hell you can check my post history, i was hell bent against marriage. At 29, never been happier being a family man, got a 4 year old son and all.

YOu might not get married. Who knows. I'm not saying you will eventually think like I think. I'm saying don't mind fvck youreslf out of living life.
 

zekko

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EastWind said:
I wonder, from his posts, how much work being happily married is to him and whether, with his current knowledge and if he were 25, he would do it all again?
Good question, maybe not. I was always very surprised that he claimed to be happily married since his comments were always so negative about marriage, monogamy, and women in general. I know he's heavily influenced by Roissy though, so maybe that's where that comes from.

I was married once, it ended it divorce. I actually enjoyed marriage quite a bit, until it went south. Now I don't regret getting married, I figured I would try it once, and I feel like it was good life experience for me. But if I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have gotten married. Mainly because of the financial repercussions of the divorce. We had what I consider a very fair settlement, but it still put me back some. I could have worked all those years for my own benefit, instead of the both of us.

There's no way I will marry in the future, because of the instability of the institution in the current culture, plus the general ingratitude of females today that you mentioned. Maybe on my deathbed.
 

backbreaker

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zekko said:
Good question, maybe not. I was always very surprised that he claimed to be happily married since his comments were always so negative about marriage, monogamy, and women in general. I know he's heavily influenced by Roissy though, so maybe that's where that comes from.

I was married once, it ended it divorce. I actually enjoyed marriage quite a bit, until it went south. Now I don't regret getting married, I figured I would try it once, and I feel like it was good life experience for me. But if I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have gotten married. Mainly because of the financial repercussions of the divorce. We had what I consider a very fair settlement, but it still put me back some. I could have worked all those years for my own benefit, instead of the both of us.

There's no way I will marry in the future, because of the instability of the institution in the current culture, plus the general ingratitude of females today that you mentioned. Maybe on my deathbed.
I'm happily married. I know 5string is happily married. Samsade was happily married and got a divorce but not beucase his wife was trash or not worth marrying he just wanted to do something different

Look


There is a reason I am always making AA/NA references and it's not because I like talking about NA/AA, it's beucase I realized a few years ago that for instance, there is nothing wrong with alcohol. The problem with the alcoholic is that he can't successfully manage his alcohol consumption once he starts to drink. thus, he does not have a healthy relationship with alcohol


I say that to say, we are all here for the same reason. different paths maybe, different points in life but we are all the same; we can't succesfully manage women. or couldn't. Either you were like me and could get a girl interested but had no clue how to keep her interested, or you were just pathetic at approaching or you were in a ****ty marriage where the woman stepped all over you.. We don't or haven't had healthy relationships with women. for me my own mother included.

so there are 3 things you need to be aware of

1. Our past experiences/failures with women have just as much to do with us as it does with women. Until you grasp this concept you are hopeless.

2. When by chance we DID attract women, beucase we could not attract the upper tier of women, we took what came to us; generally lower class women with baggage of some sorts. Just about all of our experiences that we have had deal with lower class women in some way shape or form.

3. AS warrior likes to say, confirmation bias. We kept getting treated like **** so we started to expect women to treat us like ****. So they did. I dated a few girls who wren't ****ty but beucase i kept acting like a beta male punk AFC eventually treated me like you treat AFC beta male punks


what am I trying to say? you cannot judge women on how you've been treated by them in the past once you come here and get this. it doesn't work like that. Guess what, **** attracts flies. If you are **** dont' be surprised if flies come and start to treat you like ****.


Only once you have your **** together, have gotten out of low self esteem mode, have a basic understanding of red flags and generally have a high opinion, or at least, not low opinion of yourself, can you successfully measure women.


There are a plenty of marriage worthy women out there, you just can't see them. That's like when I used drugs, I thought everyone was on something. something. maybe not what I was on but i didn't understand how a person could go through life and not take ANYTHING. you drank, you did pills you did something. i honest to god came to believe this.

now that i'm clean i don't know anyone who does anything. it's 2 different worlds. But right now your vision is hazed by your past experiences.

Look, even had I met my wife when i was say.. 21, she would not be my wife today. no way in hell. I wasn't ready for a woman like her. I didn't know how to deal with a high quality women

first of all, i never would have gotten her number beucse the first time i asked she rejected me. at 21 i woudl have tucked my tail between my legs and went on. the first time she cracked a short joke or told me she normally isn't interested in short guys (she's 5'11) i would have gotten into my ego. there were 2 other guys in the picture wheni met her. at 21 i woudl ahve came on too hard to try to out do the other guys and i would have came off as needy and pushed her away

then let's say i overcame all this and i did get to date her, i would have followed her around like a lap dog becase in my mind i know i out kicked my coverage. she isn't even all that materialistic and i would have blown wads of money on her to keep her around. i woudl have came across as a patehetic chump and she woudl ahve gotten tired of me


and you know what, today she is a wonderful wife. no complaints whatsoever. but it took me getting myself right first to be able to handle her

your problem is that you are looking at the world through your AFC eyes. you can't do that. you have to get your eyes fixed beofre you can use them right.
 

Aristippus

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Everyone who's responded made some really good comments. Good ideas.

Now about freedom. You're overwhelmed because now you have all of these possibilities and aren't sure how to get where you want to go. It's like having a roadmap and getting in your car to drive and not having a destination, or these days, like having a gps with no destination in mind and nothing entered into the gps.

Before, you had the stability of a goal being laid before you. It wasn't necessarily your own, but it was already laid out for you. You didn't have to think about where you'd like to go. To determine this, decide what YOU value. What YOU want. This doesn't mean your job has to be fun all of the time. You could even dislike many things about it but use the money made in your line of work to bring you closer 10 times faster than if you were busy chasing other people's dreams.

So you have to determine where you'd like to be socially, financially, emotionally. What you'd like to have in your life. To avoid chasing more and more dollars just for the sake of chasing money, always ask, when you say you want to make a certain amount of money, "To what end? What will having this much money allow me to do in life?". Maybe it brings you freedom to do things you want or gives you security because you have money for emergencies or a combination of things. Everyone has their own answers that are unique to themselves.

I'd also suggest you get the book "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World", by Harry Browne. It may give you some more ideas about what to do with your freedom and also, I think you'll learn a lot from it. You're already on the road to freedom anyway. This book will help you to find your own answers and also give you some new ideas you might have never considered. Good luck and have fun!
 

samspade

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EastWind said:
And another thing is, and this is for you, Rollo, well, what about women now? I'm 25, I'm eligible, and every woman my age, even the nice, kind, beautiful, sweet, intelligent ones, who gives me serious attention creeps me out because I know what she's really after.
I'm not Rollo, but - We all know what women are after, but why be creeped out about it or angry about it?

At the basest level every female seeks two things: Good genes and resources. It's neither good nor bad, it's just the way nature designed things. There is a large scale on which each woman falls in her methods toward these ends. But generally I can't fault a woman for doing what's best, in the end, for her offspring. And whether sex results in offspring or not is irrelevant. The drivers are in place. A "shyt test" is just one little piece of the cosmic order.

I like to think my ex wife was "a good woman." The truth is she was right for me and what I wanted. Did she want good genes and resources? You bet. Did I want her body, her friendship, and her suppor? Of course. Likewise, I think of my mother as good for my father. They've been married 45 years. Is she a snake in the grass for using some of the money my dad earned? No more so than my dad is for using her as a vessel for sex and reproduction.

Now there are people out there who will use more extreme means to extract what they want. It's up to you to decide what you're comfortable with, but the bottom line is people want what they can get from you. That may sound cynical. But think about it: Your best friend wants your companionship. Your boss wants your work. Your parents want you to succeed and continue the line and to give them joy through pride.

Most parents have children because they wanted to have children, or because they wanted to have sex. Either way you are here because of what someone else wanted. Whether your parents were good or bad, they behaved according to what they wanted.

So when you think about what a woman is "after," remember she's after not only what's best for her, but what all women are after. It is up to you to spend your time with the women that make you happy.
 

EastWind

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Thanks everyone for the replies so far. Writing out my post helped, in a way, because writing something down always clarifies one's ideas.

Your answers help a lot, too, because it tells me more people besides myself have decided that what we're told is right isn't necessarily, and quite seldom, so. And it tells me some people on this forum are not only thinking about women, but have moved past that.

Aristippus: I'll look into that book you suggested. Seems like a good read, at the very least.

samspade: You're right, of course. And I know that when I interact with a woman, it's because I want something out of her, too. Now, I like to think of myself as one of the "good guys" who generally tries not to exploit people and give something back when he receives something, which is probably part of my problem; but in general I realize it's about selecting the people to be "fair" with. And here, the general impression is that women seem not to be worth it, or, rather, that the percentage of "bad" women is so high it would be insane to trust any of them.
 

EastWind

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Aristippus said:
I'd also suggest you get the book "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World", by Harry Browne. It may give you some more ideas about what to do with your freedom and also, I think you'll learn a lot from it. You're already on the road to freedom anyway. This book will help you to find your own answers and also give you some new ideas you might have never considered. Good luck and have fun!
Well, I started reading the book and he seems to know what he's talking about. His is the problem of all people who tell you not to listen to other people, namely, why should I listen to him? But in general he's only giving guidelines.

It's fascinating that he seems to have figured most of the man-woman interaction stuff out back then, derived from the simple principle of looking out for yourself.
 

switch

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OP ive been feeling the same way recently , and feeling a little lost as well...
sometimes i fear of dying alone ,
my grandfather was a red pill as well, though he never knew about this pill business...he always warned me about women , politicians , friends ..
looking back i realize he was right about everything, especially women.
he was by far the coolest mofo i ever knew, had friends in every country/city and had banged girls even when he was married lol
but his wife started living separately around 15 years before his death.

In his last days he used to be fed by his neighbors and then after a heart attack he was taken to an institute where he died alone 3 days later.his wife was living separately ,not divorced,she came to the funeral, not even a single drop of tears.....

sometimes i think i'll end up the same way,especially because i look just like him physically and have the same attitude/personality

its just....i don't know, sad i guess. i know after i die nothing will matter but i somehow want someone to be there, also i have no idea as to what i want from life and am starting to think my career choice wasnt really what i wanted....sometimes i wish i had taken the blue one and lived ignorantly

im really lost, my dreams , i dont know what they are or how i should reach them. and as for women , most of them are selfish broads, i dont think ill find a woman who would respect my ideas and lifestyle..

btw aristippus nailed it , answered most of my questions :D
 

samspade

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EastWind said:
samspade: You're right, of course. And I know that when I interact with a woman, it's because I want something out of her, too. Now, I like to think of myself as one of the "good guys" who generally tries not to exploit people and give something back when he receives something, which is probably part of my problem; but in general I realize it's about selecting the people to be "fair" with. And here, the general impression is that women seem not to be worth it, or, rather, that the percentage of "bad" women is so high it would be insane to trust any of them.
Nobody can be exploited without their permission. Just remember it's a marketplace and every relationship is filled with transactions. So in a romantic relationship, both parties will pay with their time. A man will usually pay with resources and effort. A woman will usually pay with sexual access and companionship. It's a two-sided transaction. The problem always lies where one party works to leverage more from the other without giving up as much. Now you could argue that Game is leverage and thus unfair. But actually Game involves (generally) giving women something they want in a man: Good genes and the potential for resources. It's the betas and pushovers who look to leverage with more money, more gifts, more resources who don't understand the real price. They only get companionship at best in return because the female knows what she stands to gain and can turn a "profit." Similarly when a woman is easy/horny she's giving away access on the cheap; the man is less likely to follow up with resources and time (in the form of future dates).

These concepts are really simple and we see them played out in movies, TV shows, and books all the time. Yet we complicate them with our rationalizations and moralizing. Yet they're so universal that we even question too much of a good thing. A woman will wonder if her newfound beau is a "player" (too much Alpha?) and a man may worry his sexually energized plate is a "slvt" (too easy too soon?). Just as you would question why a Cadillac would have its price slashed in half even though it looks fine. Are the brakes defective? Transmission problems?

They don't teach you this stuff in Econ 101 but they should.
 

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This thread is pure Gold. One of the best posted in a while. Lots of truth and lots of wisdom has been posted so far.

Just to add my 2 cents.. for Eastwind, this new "freedom" can be deceptive. You are emotionally "free" but are you physically free? Can you hop on a plane and go to Hawaii tomorrow if you want? Probably not.

So now that you've achieved emotional freedom, your next step should be physical freedom.The path to physical freedom is power. Power through resources (money) and power over others (emotional intelligence / leverage). The fact that you can't just hop on a plane and visit Hawaii for a week is because other people still have power over you. You need their job/money/approval to pay your bills.

So I would start there Eastwind.

Here is something else I came across that adds to what has been discussed to far in this thread:

"Ten Irrational Ideas" from Ellis and Harpers' A New Guide to Rational Living (1975):

Irrational Idea #1 the "idea that you must—yes, must—have love or approval from all the people you find significant." We see this all the time in family situations, where people jump through hoops trying to get approval from people who will never grant it.

Irrational Idea #2 is "I must not fail" or, as Ellis and Harper put it, the idea that you must prove thoroughly competent, adequate, and achieving. This idea is irrational because, in truth, nobody is good at everything, and sometimes people do fail. In fact, we learn more from failure than success, and many famous and successful people fail at half of what they set out to do.

Irrational Idea #3 is damning. This as the idea that when people act obnoxiously and unfairly, you should blame and damn them, and see them as bad, wicked, or rotten individuals. Some people apply this to themselves, giving themselves up as hopeless. Others turn the blame on someone else. Either way, it is not very constructive. The public reaction to a scandal, such as the Clinton-Lewinsky affair, is a case in point. It was damning behavior at its worst.

Irrational idea #4 is awfulizing: the idea that you have to view things as awful, terrible, and horrible when things go wrong. We see this today in the media, where "ain't it awful" is the underlying narrative to everything, and to even suggest otherwise is to be "out of touch" with reality.

Irrational idea #5 is the idea that emotional misery comes from external pressures and that you have little ability to control or change your feelings. The rational alternative, recommended by Ellis, is control your destiny by taking responsibility for how you interpret and react to events.

Irrational Idea #6 is that if something seems dangerous or fearsome, you must preoccupy yourself with it and make yourself anxious about it. This is related to #4 above. We need to worry about the European debt crises, or the national debt, or the deficit, or the price of oil, or war in the middle east. But worrying about these things accomplishes nothing, and often these things sort themselves out, over time, and our worrying means nothing.

Irrational Idea #7 is the notion that avoiding life's difficulties is more rewarding than undertaking new challenges. But life without meaning is often a miserable life. Doing the hard thing is often the most rewarding thing.

Irrational Idea #8 is that your past remains all-important and that because something once strongly influenced your life, it has to keep determining your feelings and behavior today. Perpetual High School, or obsession with trying to "understand" your parents or childhood. Move on with life - don't define yourself by the first 1/4 of it.

Irrational Idea #9 is that people and things should turn out better than they do and that you must view it as awful and horrible if you do not find good solutions to life's grim realities. Or, "Life is not an optimized event." We cannot all be Billionaires or the Next President. And we all make horrific mistakes in life. But we muddle through, and should appreciate what we have, not what could have had.

Irrational Idea #10, you can achieve maximum human happiness by inertia and inaction or by passively and uncommittedly "enjoying yourself." "Kick Back" the pot-heads say, smoking another blunt. Or "Lets get wasted" the college students say. But perpetual partying is not a way to happiness, as each generation of media stars prove, again and again. Life without purpose is an unhappy life.
 

EastWind

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I'm not emotionally free yet. Possibly I've identified how to be, but as of yet I haven't had the courage or the "big idea" to change it all.

I've started grad school because it seemed like something that might be good for me, the topic is... somewhat interesting, but I can't deal with having to drag myself to work every morning when the world is out there. People there are nice but... not my cup of tea, in the way that it seems most of them can't picture any other way but the treadmill. Doubtlessly some of them are just where they want to be because they want a PhD and a stellar career. Wouldn't want to keep any of them from it.

But it seems it's not my world. The treadmill, working for someone else's dream, you know?

I'm well aware, by the way, that this looks like the pure first world luxury problems of a privileged kid who's never had the absolute NEED to work for his food. But take it from me, your dreams grow with the possibilities, it's all relative, freedom for someone who has no income might be having income and once they have it, it might be something else. By the way, I'd happily earn less for the possibility to have more freedom/free time.

So I feel that I have embarked on the right path... but it's still a long way to go. In a way, it makes it harder, to see the possibilities but to not - yet - be able to achieve them. Knowing that "working the treadmill", "making the best out of what you get" etc. is NOT a definitive wisdom but rather the misguided judgement of people who either a) have had it work out for them, out of sheer luck or b) have been told so and believed so.
 

PlayHer Man

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EastWind said:
By the way, I'd happily earn less for the possibility to have more freedom/free time.

So I feel that I have embarked on the right path... but it's still a long way to go. In a way, it makes it harder, to see the possibilities but to not - yet - be able to achieve them. Knowing that "working the treadmill", "making the best out of what you get" etc. is NOT a definitive wisdom but rather the misguided judgement of people who either a) have had it work out for them, out of sheer luck or b) have been told so and believed so.

YES, I totally agree with whats in RED above.
It much better to "own yourself" even if it means less income. This is my life goal: to "purchase myself" and get to a point where I don't need anyone else's sh!tty job.

This is true freedom --> Answering to NO ONE.

Getting there is not as hard as many believe. You just have to use your head and think outside the box. You can't follow the most traveled road.

Reading the book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" really sold me on how lame it is to "work for someone else's dream" and stay in the "rat race" your entire life. If you can get out, you'd be a fool not to (even if it means a lower income).
 

Aristippus

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EastWind said:
But it seems it's not my world. The treadmill, working for someone else's dream, you know?
You don't have to live on the treadmill for life. I do suggest that you temporarily use the treadmill. Exploit it. Use it to your advantage for a little while so you can abandon it later if you'd like. You could exploit the treadmill for a couple of years, work hard, save money, then use that money to invest in a business or whatever you want to do. I think you're inexperienced in the work force and you need to build some work experience in a situation where you're forced to live up to certain expectations.

It will prepare you for running your own business if that's what you want to do. It will help you to build work ethic. You can use the situation like training wheels. You used them temporarily when learning to ride a bike but once you abandon them, you never use them again. Don't be so limited that you rule out using the things that you might associate with slavery, to actually buy and win your freedom. Usually it's living beyond one's means and getting into tons of debt and marrying too soon and having kids too soon that impedes a man's freedom.

You can work a 9-5 job and live your non-working time however you'd like. You'll have to work 9-5 regardless of whether you own your own business or work for someone else. People usually feel hopeless when they can't do what they want with their lives the rest of the time. Their non-working life sucks. You can gradually phase in your own business or find a career and work for someone else doing what you want. There are a lot of possibilities. Money is a funny thing really. It's only worth something when we give it away. We hold on to it in hopes that one day we will give our money to someone else. Otherwise money is nothing but little pieces of paper with print on it.

Money is intrinsically worthless by itself. The money we hold on to does us no good in and of itself. It is the future hope of getting RID of it, that gives us the feeling of security that we have if we have a bank account with lots of money in it. What you need, more than anything, is YOU. You're the goose that lays the golden eggs. Once you realize that then you realize that security doesn't lie so much in external circumstances as it does in your adaptability. External circumstances can make it easier or harder, but in the end, if local circumstances were too bad, you could always relocate. Ultimately it's up to you.
 

zekko

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PlayHerMan said:
Just to add my 2 cents.. for Eastwind, this new "freedom" can be deceptive. You are emotionally "free" but are you physically free? Can you hop on a plane and go to Hawaii tomorrow if you want? Probably not.
Being able to hop on a plane and go to Hawaii is more of a luxury than a freedom. You might have the freedom to do it, but can you afford it? Can you have the "freedom" to live in a mansion? You can if you've got the money. Money can buy a lot of freedom, no argument there.

Aristippus makes a lot of sense here. You don't have to work for someone else's dream, but sometimes you can work on someone else's dream while you're working toward your own. Work is honorable, and is expected of men. Freedom is good, but don't fall into the trap of sacrificing your future just so you can play around today. At least have a plan, preferably with some backup options.
 
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