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On Leadership in Relationship

KOKid

Don Juan
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It is refreshing to hear a woman finally say what I've been told most of my life and what I've been seeing on other forums. It is unfortunate that it cost you your marriage. If both of you could have seen these dynamics years ago maybe he wouldn't have fell into such a depression and you maybe not so resentful towards him. If it is any consolation my 15 year relationship ended the same only I was the leader and she wanted to lead. I wasn't going to conform to the new rules and it led to great amounts of resentment from both sides and eventually imploded.

There is nothing wrong in being a woman. Women love being sexy. They love wearing nice things and smelling sexy. They like being needed by others and enjoy taking a back seat when out and about with a man. A woman understands the difference between being treated like a woman and being treated like an idiot. They have class and can hold a conversation that doesn't revolve around vapid interests within the cult of celebrity.

A girl who wasn't raised in such a dynamic or believes the feminism rhetoric they are being fed will not have these qualities and they quickly confuse a man which leads to some confused interchange down the road. Today younger girls are ingrained to believe that adopting a captain/first mate relationship is harmful to them. It holds them back and they will not be able to succeed in life unless they are leading. It doesn't help that everything they consume lies to them and tells them men are weak minded and need led at all time. To their credit young men today are so weak spiritually they seem conflicted on how to act as a strong man.

15 or so years from now the hysteria will die down and third wave feminism will be extinct. With the advent of the internet there are many groups out there that are educating others on what is going on and slowly things are changing. Boys become men and men seek answers. Hopefully women such as yourself teach the younger generation that it's OK to be a classic and classy woman, but yet expect a man to be masculine.

Unfortunately there are going to be many divorces and many children that will bear the brunt of it all before it's all over with.
 

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mrgoodstuff

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It is refreshing to hear a woman finally say what I've been told most of my life and what I've been seeing on other forums. It is unfortunate that it cost you your marriage. If both of you could have seen these dynamics years ago maybe he wouldn't have fell into such a depression and you maybe not so resentful towards him. If it is any consolation my 15 year relationship ended the same only I was the leader and she wanted to lead. I wasn't going to conform to the new rules and it led to great amounts of resentment from both sides and eventually imploded.

There is nothing wrong in being a woman. Women love being sexy. They love wearing nice things and smelling sexy. They like being needed by others and enjoy taking a back seat when out and about with a man. A woman understands the difference between being treated like a woman and being treated like an idiot. They have class and can hold a conversation that doesn't revolve around vapid interests within the cult of celebrity.

A girl who wasn't raised in such a dynamic or believes the feminism rhetoric they are being fed will not have these qualities and they quickly confuse a man which leads to some confused interchange down the road. Today younger girls are ingrained to believe that adopting a captain/first mate relationship is harmful to them. It holds them back and they will not be able to succeed in life unless they are leading. It doesn't help that everything they consume lies to them and tells them men are weak minded and need led at all time. To their credit young men today are so weak spiritually they seem conflicted on how to act as a strong man.

15 or so years from now the hysteria will die down and third wave feminism will be extinct. With the advent of the internet there are many groups out there that are educating others on what is going on and slowly things are changing. Boys become men and men seek answers. Hopefully women such as yourself teach the younger generation that it's OK to be a classic and classy woman, but yet expect a man to be masculine.

Unfortunately there are going to be many divorces and many children that will bear the brunt of it all before it's all over with.
Let me ask you. If they are being reprogrammed to "lead", then what does that leave for the men of their generation? Zero leadership in relationship, so what are you going to do to force the lead? Gorilla pimping beat down? No, you will go to jail. I still hear reasonable women say they want their man in a leading role and will allow it to him proven he is responsible, reliable and she trusts him.

But there are other women who wouldn't have a man leading him even if he is the most successful man in the world, she just wouldn't have it.
 

LiveFreeX

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Now three confirmed women on this site, why are they here, why are they not doing better things with their time like pursuing alphas? I'm just curious but how many of you guys out there spend your free time on women's forums like 'love shack', 'vogue' or 'women's health'? Do any of you really believe a woman would sympathize with your point of view?
 

KOKid

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Let me ask you. If they are being reprogrammed to "lead", then what does that leave for the men of their generation? Zero leadership in relationship, so what are you going to do to force the lead? Gorilla pimping beat down? No, you will go to jail. I still hear reasonable women say they want their man in a leading role and will allow it to him proven he is responsible, reliable and she trusts him.

But there are other women who wouldn't have a man leading him even if he is the most successful man in the world, she just wouldn't have it.
OP mentioned redpill then I assume you would be familiar with blue pill. Blue pill is what the men of their generation are left as. It leaves the men weak and emasculated. I see it all the time. Out of shape boys who still play video games into their late 20's having very little social skills and way of keeping someone interested. Waiting for the woman to have the answers and take care of everything. Depression and anxiety. I also see women get tired of it and exasperated the older they get. The thrill of having a man who does everything to please her and the children wears off and they end up confused and searching for something that gives them the tingles.

The ones who don't want to be lead are being left behind or with men who are very comfortable being the weaker one in the relationship. I've seen that as well and while the man looks like a beaten and broken caged animal the woman has a wondering eye while dominating the conversation or room.
 

BeExcellent

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Now three confirmed women on this site, why are they here, why are they not doing better things with their time like pursuing alphas?
There is a thread about this. Here is the link.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php?threads/for-the-women-of-ss-why-are-you-here.232838/page-2#post-2323588

I have children who are going to end up in the dating world one of these days soon. Raising them to understand appreciate traditional male/female roles is important to me. So I gain perspective here and comment when I think it could be of use to someone else.

Hopefully women such as yourself teach the younger generation that it's OK to be a classic and classy woman, but yet expect a man to be masculine.
Thanks. I am trying my level best. There's a lot of BS out there to combat as I think we are all aware.
 
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KOKid

Don Juan
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Now three confirmed women on this site, why are they here, why are they not doing better things with their time like pursuing alphas? I'm just curious but how many of you guys out there spend your free time on women's forums like 'love shack', 'vogue' or 'women's health'? Do any of you really believe a woman would sympathize with your point of view?
I was on Love Shack at the very beginning of my break with the last relationship. I no longer go there. I searched out for what the heck happened in my relationship and why it went so bad so fast. Didn't take me long to find what I was looking for. While I didn't agree with everything I was being told; I agreed with a lot of it and started to put it in practice.

I kept searching and healing. Stopped blaming or asking why. I started working. It stopped being a manipulative act and is just who I am now.

The first test I put in motion worked and the next one and the next. Then I started to see how weak the men around me were and noticing the alphas or DJs. I didn't hate on them I observed and learned and followed.

I hold this dear to my heart. You cannot argue with the laws of attraction.

To answer your question... No I do not believe any woman would sympathize with my point of view and therefore I don't search for their acceptance. The quagmire of interrelationships we are in now is terrible. These women are here, because they are tired of the weak men in their lives and are searching for answers like we are. They are confused, because everything they are being told and believed in turned out to be a lie. I hope they bring more women here. I hope they teach their young and anyone who will listen to them.
 

Atom Smasher

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I honestly think it's not healthy for them. It causes them to take on some of our characteristics, world-views, and language, which don't translate well. This dynamic has to happen, to one degree or another, from exposure. It happens subconsciously, and therein lies the danger of inability to recognize the subtle changes. Most of them come here for some insight into how men think, but I think they'd be better off going to one of the sites that instruct women how men think and what attracts a quality man.

Hanging out here in the hornets' nest can only serve to slowly create a hybrid hornet which will be ineffective in RL.
 

LiveFreeX

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Penkitten... so you are saying women should flock here to meet husbands :) Thats fine then, I'd like to hear from Penkitten more and not wyldfyre.
 

samspade

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It's funny that you use the example of salsa dancing, because as a hispanic male who was raised in Latin America and now resides in the United States, I can tell when there was a newcomer to either a lesson or the dance floor. More often than not, the "true" American woman between the ages of 20 - 40 were the ones who couldn't really "grasp" the lead concept. They AUTOMATICALLY thought they should be leading.

That's not how it works.

I've had to stop dancing quite a couple of times because salsa actually became a dance of dominance. In that case, I can just go find another partner to dance with that'll get it. But in the same vein, it takes a strong man willing to put his foot down and either take control or to simply walk away to the next dance partner and that's where a lot of men fail these days.
I've had this happen to me where the woman didn't get it. I said point-blank, "I can tell you're not used to a man leading you." She admitted that no she wasn't and relaxed a little and the dancing got better. I never called her.
 
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penkitten

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Penkitten... so you are saying women should flock here to meet husbands :) Thats fine then, I'd like to hear from Penkitten more and not wyldfyre.
Haha... I had to go check to see if I had even said anything in this thread. You had me confused!
 

phillies

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It's kind of masochistic for women in their 30s and up. I mean pump n dump is taught her quite often, which is the last thing they want since their youth is fading and their options are running out. You gotta think every 6 months a little more youth has noticeably evaporated and they can't stop it. It's gotta make them a bit paranoid.
 

Lynx nkaf

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This past week I had a cathartic experience that perhaps might be useful to y'all.

Background: The short version of my story is that I am a woman who was married to a nightclub owner for 15 years. After we married his partnership fell apart and he was unable to retain his business. My business grew and became successful, and he stayed home (after briefly trying several other livelihoods and quitting) to raise the kids. This dynamic eventually was the undoing of the marriage as he became more depressed/unmotivated/felt inadequate and I became more resentful/angry/jaded/successful.

We divorced and things are actually much improved between us now. But the scars of being cast into reversal or the male/female roles are everywhere in me in subtle ways. I always emphasize leadership for the man. Call it frame, call it inner game, call it being the man, call it what you want but I call it leadership. In relationship the man must lead. I am relearning NOT to lead in the personal aspects of my life. It is a harder readjustment than I realized, but it is welcome and refreshing.

I dance ballroom and latin. I met my ex in his live music venue because I love to dance. So last week for the first time I took a private lesson in salsa. I know how to salsa, I move well etc. etc. But in salsa the man should lead. Unequivocally. My teacher was funny. Two minutes into the lesson he stopped cold. He looked at me and said "Look. You know how to move. You don't need steps. But you are all over the place." He showed me how in very subtle ways I was anticipating what he was going to do, how I was trying to "help" him lead the dance. From me lifting my arm rather than allowing him to lift it, to not relaxing my wrist, to turning before his body told me to turn. Everything.

He said to me "I am GOOD at this. I KNOW how to lead the dance. Let me lead." And each time I would unconsciously usurp him he would abruptly stop. And reframe the dance. And start over. And over the course of the 30 minute lesson things improved remarkably as I followed his lead. By the end of the lesson we were moving beautifully and effortlessly. I was blown away. He also told me "You become who you dance with. Only dance with the best because you have the ability, but you must follow. Do NOT dance with a shltty lead. You are not helping yourself in doing that."

He also said "The connection drives the dance. Your body must listen to mine through the connection. You know the steps, but you must learn to read the connection. Connection is much harder to master than steps. From connection you will feel everything you need to do when I guide you to do it."

For me it was a wonderful metaphor for life. The men I date now are leaders, they are successful men. They expect respect and a woman who can follow, who can submit and defer. Because I am successful in my own right I will only dance with the best, for I have the ability. And this is also true in life. But I have much to unlearn from shouldering an unnatural role for so many years. It inspires me and makes me smile. But I am evolving and I already see the joy in embracing the feminine role consciously.

So become your best selves gentlemen. Get out there and LEAD your lives. And perhaps you will find a wonderful follow with whom you can dance beautifully and effortlessly...if only you will lead well...and establish connection.

Cheers!
what a valuable share-I will think and think on your experiences now. I agree completely.
 

Lynx nkaf

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I honestly think it's not healthy for them. It causes them to take on some of our characteristics, world-views, and language, which don't translate well. This dynamic has to happen, to one degree or another, from exposure. It happens subconsciously, and therein lies the danger of inability to recognize the subtle changes. Most of them come here for some insight into how men think, but I think they'd be better off going to one of the sites that instruct women how men think and what attracts a quality man.

Hanging out here in the hornets' nest can only serve to slowly create a hybrid hornet which will be ineffective in RL.
maybe yes, you were right back in 2016 atom, the post above is the first time I learned there was women's forums...I screenshotted that small list and will check them out. I have two feminine youtubers I watch but funnily enough, I found them inadvertantly reading through manosphere stuff.
Weird. Perplexing, but I'll take the learning any way I can get it even when it appears in backwards order.
 

BeExcellent

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It’s interesting. This thread was posted 4 years ago. It remains true today. Interesting also is my son is now a high school senior who has had a LTR for a year, and now is dating his second GF. He’s become a solid young man who is wise beyond his years and is socially well calibrated. He is a result of his environment. His father is a loving father. My BF is a positive masculine influence as are the men who lead the all male academy he attends for high school.

My girls are growing into women. I find raising them against the grain of 3rd wave feminism and in a more general sense militant liberalism is quite daunting as it goes quite against the grain in the social system & educational systems they exist in. My youngest remains in Catholic school, which has better values, more traditional values than the public schools.

So I remain in the trenches raising children.

And I greatly appreciate the leadership of the man I’m currently seeing...and although he has his flaws...he is growing and working on himself, which I support fully.

Ok. Time for me to go. My guy has requested an apple pie for dessert tonight. So time for me to grab him a beer and get to baking.

Cheers Gents
 
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Lynx nkaf

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It’s interesting. This thread was posted 4 years ago. It remains true today. Interesting also is my son is now a high school senior who has had a LTR for a year, and now is dating his second GF. He’s become a solid young man who is wise beyond his years and is socially well calibrated. He is a result of his environment. His father is a loving father. My BF is a positive masculine influence as are the men who lead the all male academy he attends for high school.

My girls are growing into women. I find raising them against the grain of 3rd wave feminism and in a more general sense militant liberalism is quite daunting as it goes quite against the grain in the social system & educational systems they exist in. My youngest remains in Catholic school, which has better values, more traditional values than the public schools.

So I remain in the trenches raising children.

And I greatly appreciate the leadership of the man I’m currently seeing...and although he has his flaws...he is growing and working on himself, which I support fully.

Ok. Time for me to go. My guy has requested an apple pie for dessert tonight. So time for me to grab him a beer and get to baking.

Cheers Gents
Homebaked apple pie is comforting to smell baking. Very nice.
 

EyeOnThePrize

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This past week I had a cathartic experience that perhaps might be useful to y'all.

Background: The short version of my story is that I am a woman who was married to a nightclub owner for 15 years. After we married his partnership fell apart and he was unable to retain his business. My business grew and became successful, and he stayed home (after briefly trying several other livelihoods and quitting) to raise the kids. This dynamic eventually was the undoing of the marriage as he became more depressed/unmotivated/felt inadequate and I became more resentful/angry/jaded/successful.

We divorced and things are actually much improved between us now. But the scars of being cast into reversal or the male/female roles are everywhere in me in subtle ways. I always emphasize leadership for the man. Call it frame, call it inner game, call it being the man, call it what you want but I call it leadership. In relationship the man must lead. I am relearning NOT to lead in the personal aspects of my life. It is a harder readjustment than I realized, but it is welcome and refreshing.

I dance ballroom and latin. I met my ex in his live music venue because I love to dance. So last week for the first time I took a private lesson in salsa. I know how to salsa, I move well etc. etc. But in salsa the man should lead. Unequivocally. My teacher was funny. Two minutes into the lesson he stopped cold. He looked at me and said "Look. You know how to move. You don't need steps. But you are all over the place." He showed me how in very subtle ways I was anticipating what he was going to do, how I was trying to "help" him lead the dance. From me lifting my arm rather than allowing him to lift it, to not relaxing my wrist, to turning before his body told me to turn. Everything.

He said to me "I am GOOD at this. I KNOW how to lead the dance. Let me lead." And each time I would unconsciously usurp him he would abruptly stop. And reframe the dance. And start over. And over the course of the 30 minute lesson things improved remarkably as I followed his lead. By the end of the lesson we were moving beautifully and effortlessly. I was blown away. He also told me "You become who you dance with. Only dance with the best because you have the ability, but you must follow. Do NOT dance with a shltty lead. You are not helping yourself in doing that."

He also said "The connection drives the dance. Your body must listen to mine through the connection. You know the steps, but you must learn to read the connection. Connection is much harder to master than steps. From connection you will feel everything you need to do when I guide you to do it."

For me it was a wonderful metaphor for life. The men I date now are leaders, they are successful men. They expect respect and a woman who can follow, who can submit and defer. Because I am successful in my own right I will only dance with the best, for I have the ability. And this is also true in life. But I have much to unlearn from shouldering an unnatural role for so many years. It inspires me and makes me smile. But I am evolving and I already see the joy in embracing the feminine role consciously.

So become your best selves gentlemen. Get out there and LEAD your lives. And perhaps you will find a wonderful follow with whom you can dance beautifully and effortlessly...if only you will lead well...and establish connection.

Cheers!
that's always my favorite part of dance classes. whenever i sense the woman i'm dancing with is trying to lead i kick it up a notch until she has no choice but to follow. i switch and spin her and change our direction so often that she can't lead. i don't go too far or too fast to make her look foolish, but just far enough to keep her full attention and consistently remind her who is leading. if she takes even a split second to try and lead she's instantly met with a dance 'check', a redirection to originality rather than repetition. usually girls that have just started are trying to lead too much and require constant checks, but those that are intermediate or experts are perrrfect. they know that they are acting as your canvas, or as your brush, to have you make your masterpiece with them, and they love it, it's so graceful and smooth with them. in my head i'm queuing up the moves and am always thinking several steps ahead. i play her like an instrument to make art on the dance floor for my own enjoyment(the enjoyment of others is a bonus). the song usually ends in a burst of giggles from her and a very grateful smile with compliments between her panting as she wipes her brow. i love east coast swing.
 

Black Widow Void

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@BeExcellent

I've noticed a reoccurring theme in your postings about your boyfriend, It's usually with a "despite his flaws" or "he has his flaws,,. but" etc..

Among many male forum members (count me as one) there's a consensus that women lack self-accountability, and are more prone to recognize flaws in others.

Although I believe that stereotypes exist for a reason, I think it's great when I see someone that has broken free from such trappings.

What flaws (other than the stereotypical "I'm a girl" free-pass card ) do you possess... in which your boyfriend has made concessions?
 

Augustus_McCrae

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It’s interesting. This thread was posted 4 years ago. It remains true today. Interesting also is my son is now a high school senior who has had a LTR for a year, and now is dating his second GF. He’s become a solid young man who is wise beyond his years and is socially well calibrated. He is a result of his environment. His father is a loving father. My BF is a positive masculine influence as are the men who lead the all male academy he attends for high school.

My girls are growing into women. I find raising them against the grain of 3rd wave feminism and in a more general sense militant liberalism is quite daunting as it goes quite against the grain in the social system & educational systems they exist in. My youngest remains in Catholic school, which has better values, more traditional values than the public schools.

So I remain in the trenches raising children.

And I greatly appreciate the leadership of the man I’m currently seeing...and although he has his flaws...he is growing and working on himself, which I support fully.

Ok. Time for me to go. My guy has requested an apple pie for dessert tonight. So time for me to grab him a beer and get to baking.

Cheers Gents
@Black Widow Void noticed the same thing I did.

By your own words, It seems like every man you meet has flaws that he’s working on. Has it ever occurred to you that there is a disconnect between that and the philosophy you espouse on this form?

You have stated many times that you are high-quality and you have your pick of men. If that is true, then why do you keep picking men that have “flaws they are working on“?

Moreover, considering the age of the men you date, it makes even less sense. They should be fully formed. They should have worked out any issues they had with themselves years ago.

So, something doesn’t add up. You are either fishing in the wrong pond or perhaps there is something causing you to select men like that without you consciously realizing it at the time.

-Augustus-
 

Black Widow Void

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To avoid this looking like a personal attack against BeExcellent, I'll go on record by stating that I have *many* flaws. We all have them.
Some male forum members will own their imperfections... while other male forum members are in denial. The latter are easy to spot -- they look for opportunities to accuse members (usually new members confused and looking for help) of being "beta"

I was mainly curious if (unlike so many women) she was able to recognize her own imperfections and appreciate what her boyfriend overlooks as well.

There's an old saying:
Men marry women; hoping she won't change.
Women marry men; hoping he will.
 
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