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On Leadership in Relationship

BeExcellent

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This past week I had a cathartic experience that perhaps might be useful to y'all.

Background: The short version of my story is that I am a woman who was married to a nightclub owner for 15 years. After we married his partnership fell apart and he was unable to retain his business. My business grew and became successful, and he stayed home (after briefly trying several other livelihoods and quitting) to raise the kids. This dynamic eventually was the undoing of the marriage as he became more depressed/unmotivated/felt inadequate and I became more resentful/angry/jaded/successful.

We divorced and things are actually much improved between us now. But the scars of being cast into reversal or the male/female roles are everywhere in me in subtle ways. I always emphasize leadership for the man. Call it frame, call it inner game, call it being the man, call it what you want but I call it leadership. In relationship the man must lead. I am relearning NOT to lead in the personal aspects of my life. It is a harder readjustment than I realized, but it is welcome and refreshing.

I dance ballroom and latin. I met my ex in his live music venue because I love to dance. So last week for the first time I took a private lesson in salsa. I know how to salsa, I move well etc. etc. But in salsa the man should lead. Unequivocally. My teacher was funny. Two minutes into the lesson he stopped cold. He looked at me and said "Look. You know how to move. You don't need steps. But you are all over the place." He showed me how in very subtle ways I was anticipating what he was going to do, how I was trying to "help" him lead the dance. From me lifting my arm rather than allowing him to lift it, to not relaxing my wrist, to turning before his body told me to turn. Everything.

He said to me "I am GOOD at this. I KNOW how to lead the dance. Let me lead." And each time I would unconsciously usurp him he would abruptly stop. And reframe the dance. And start over. And over the course of the 30 minute lesson things improved remarkably as I followed his lead. By the end of the lesson we were moving beautifully and effortlessly. I was blown away. He also told me "You become who you dance with. Only dance with the best because you have the ability, but you must follow. Do NOT dance with a shltty lead. You are not helping yourself in doing that."

He also said "The connection drives the dance. Your body must listen to mine through the connection. You know the steps, but you must learn to read the connection. Connection is much harder to master than steps. From connection you will feel everything you need to do when I guide you to do it."

For me it was a wonderful metaphor for life. The men I date now are leaders, they are successful men. They expect respect and a woman who can follow, who can submit and defer. Because I am successful in my own right I will only dance with the best, for I have the ability. And this is also true in life. But I have much to unlearn from shouldering an unnatural role for so many years. It inspires me and makes me smile. But I am evolving and I already see the joy in embracing the feminine role consciously.

So become your best selves gentlemen. Get out there and LEAD your lives. And perhaps you will find a wonderful follow with whom you can dance beautifully and effortlessly...if only you will lead well...and establish connection.

Cheers!
 

Glumix

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I like the metaphor.

A few days ago I just read something pretty much similar to that. Mother and kids are connected at birth. But not the father. The father know the rules or steps. So the mother's role is to create a connection between the father and the kids. And in that mutual confidence and sacrifice, boys and girls will grow as men and women.

Daddy issues or absent father often come from that lack of connection. You cannot dance if both want to lead or if there is no leader or if the leader is not the male because doing that you deprive him of his natural and fundamental role.
 

Colossus

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This is largely a symptom of the times. With women having a foot in more industries and social arenas than ever, there is less of a healthy disparity between M/F earning potential and social status. One of my life-long maxims is that when it comes to relationships, equal to is lesser than, in a woman's eyes. This whole pop ideal of relationship ekwaaalllity is pure garbage. It doesn't pan out in the long run. Equality with human rights---absolutely. But women cant be male analogues with tits.

They need to be with someone better than them in some way. They need a man they can look up to. I don't care what they say. It's pretty tough to be the "leader" when you are a stay at home dad, a few tiers down the education/career ladder, or a 5 dating a 9 (unless you are loaded, high status, etc.)

These are laws of nature and they cant be circumvented. There must be a healthy 1-2 step disparity between you and her. Not so much that you are incompatible, but enough that your frame will come naturally and not have to propped up on some thin veneer of 'game'.
 
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BeExcellent

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I agree completely with you Colossus. Well said.
 

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Epimanes

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This just proves the married man sex life theorys... Love it.
 

Sprayarc

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Since no one else is going to say something I guess I will. Here at sosuave we require female posters to "show tits" in order for us to take you seriously.

We do appreciate the fact that after 47 long years you've finally figured out how the world really works. Seems bitter sweet though, because as optimistic as I'm sure you try to be and are, it's not like you're a spring chicken, so to speak.

So, show your tits.

Thanks in advanced

, sprayac
 

BeExcellent

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Actually I knew before how the world works. And I married for the right reasons having learned from my Dad and grandfather what a man should be. My Dad was red pill long before the term existed.

I told you in the PM you sent that I'm happy & well. You wishing I was ugly and bitter cannot make it so. It's Friday. Grab a drink and enjoy yourself.
 

Malcontent

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Since no one else is going to say something I guess I will. Here at sosuave we require female posters to "show tits" in order for us to take you seriously.
, sprayac
This is true and we have gotten very lax around here in this regard.
 

Sprayarc

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Actually I knew before how the world works. And I married for the right reasons having learned from my Dad and grandfather what a man should be. My Dad was red pill long before the term existed.

I told you in the PM you sent that I'm happy & well. You wishing I was ugly and bitter cannot make it so. It's Friday. Grab a drink and enjoy yourself.
Ha. No need to lie by twisting what I said and putting words in my mouth.

Show tits.
 

Kailex

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It's funny that you use the example of salsa dancing, because as a hispanic male who was raised in Latin America and now resides in the United States, I can tell when there was a newcomer to either a lesson or the dance floor. More often than not, the "true" American woman between the ages of 20 - 40 were the ones who couldn't really "grasp" the lead concept. They AUTOMATICALLY thought they should be leading.

That's not how it works.

I've had to stop dancing quite a couple of times because salsa actually became a dance of dominance. In that case, I can just go find another partner to dance with that'll get it. But in the same vein, it takes a strong man willing to put his foot down and either take control or to simply walk away to the next dance partner and that's where a lot of men fail these days.
 

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glass half full

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This is largely a symptom of the times. With women having a foot in more industries and social arenas than ever, there is less of a healthy disparity between M/F earning potential and social status. One of my life-long maxims is that when it comes to relationships, equal to is lesser than, in a woman's eyes. This whole pop ideal of relationship ekwaaalllity is pure garbage. It doesn't pan out in the long run. Equality with human rights---absolutely. But women cant be male analogues with tits.

They need to be with someone better than them in some way. They need a man they can look up to. I don't care what they say. It's pretty tough to be the "leader" when you are a stay at home dad, a few tiers down the education/career ladder, or a 5 dating a 9 (unless you are loaded, high status, etc.)

These are laws of nature and they cant be circumvented. There must be a healthy 1-2 step disparity between you and her. Not so much that you are incompatible, but enough that your frame will come naturally and not have to propped up on some thin veneer of 'game'.
In general I agree with you Colossus. But I know of one exception that has probably been seen by other men here too. This why I believe American Game is screwed up.

Example- The place I worked at, as did my ex, it didn't matter if the women made less money, if the guy wasn't as hot, etc.
My neighbors, for example...The Wife was a Leader at her work, as was my wife. He was a well- built (worked out religiously) good looking guy. He was also a leader in his workplace and made easily twice what she did in their job situation, despite they were both in management.
Did everything right, basically. She still screwed around on him like mad anyway, with lesser value men. Looks wise and Money wise. It was the in thing for the women management in her company to screw around. None of the traditional rules applied here...I suspect that this is not an isolated issue, seeing our society nowadays. Women are just over-egotistical and as a result, over self-entitled. Just my 2 cents...
 

Colossus

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They are, and there are exceptions to every rule. BUT---exceptions themselves do not make a rule.

There is no single selection factor that will prevent a woman from being a wh0re under the right circumstances----just like no man is on such a lofty perch that he is morally "above" cheating. Anybody is capable of anything under enough pressure and influence. We just have to control for the things we can.

Women are more easily influenced socially than men. That's why it is important to start with good stock. A younger woman who is previously untainted by a wh0rish lifestyle still has some innocence about her, and will probably look up to you if there is a healthy disparity. When this positive differential is in place it is much easier to have some influence over her social behaviors---like who she hangs out with, etc.

Again, just my opinion and experience, but this is why Des and I keep saying the best LTRs come from younger females with low partner counts.
 

mrgoodstuff

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In general I agree with you Colossus. But I know of one exception that has probably been seen by other men here too. This why I believe American Game is screwed up.

Example- The place I worked at, as did my ex, it didn't matter if the women made less money, if the guy wasn't as hot, etc.
My neighbors, for example...The Wife was a Leader at her work, as was my wife. He was a well- built (worked out religiously) good looking guy. He was also a leader in his workplace and made easily twice what she did in their job situation, despite they were both in management.
Did everything right, basically. She still screwed around on him like mad anyway, with lesser value men. Looks wise and Money wise. It was the in thing for the women management in her company to screw around. None of the traditional rules applied here...I suspect that this is not an isolated issue, seeing our society nowadays. Women are just over-egotistical and as a result, over self-entitled. Just my 2 cents...
This what I was trying to tell people. Just because you are attractive and hi value does not mean a lady will not cheat on you. She might cheat on you for that purpose alone.
 

Reykhel

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This past week I had a cathartic experience that perhaps might be useful to y'all.

Background: The short version of my story is that I am a woman who was married to a nightclub owner for 15 years. After we married his partnership fell apart and he was unable to retain his business. My business grew and became successful, and he stayed home (after briefly trying several other livelihoods and quitting) to raise the kids. This dynamic eventually was the undoing of the marriage as he became more depressed/unmotivated/felt inadequate and I became more resentful/angry/jaded/successful.

We divorced and things are actually much improved between us now. But the scars of being cast into reversal or the male/female roles are everywhere in me in subtle ways. I always emphasize leadership for the man. Call it frame, call it inner game, call it being the man, call it what you want but I call it leadership. In relationship the man must lead. I am relearning NOT to lead in the personal aspects of my life. It is a harder readjustment than I realized, but it is welcome and refreshing.

I dance ballroom and latin. I met my ex in his live music venue because I love to dance. So last week for the first time I took a private lesson in salsa. I know how to salsa, I move well etc. etc. But in salsa the man should lead. Unequivocally. My teacher was funny. Two minutes into the lesson he stopped cold. He looked at me and said "Look. You know how to move. You don't need steps. But you are all over the place." He showed me how in very subtle ways I was anticipating what he was going to do, how I was trying to "help" him lead the dance. From me lifting my arm rather than allowing him to lift it, to not relaxing my wrist, to turning before his body told me to turn. Everything.

He said to me "I am GOOD at this. I KNOW how to lead the dance. Let me lead." And each time I would unconsciously usurp him he would abruptly stop. And reframe the dance. And start over. And over the course of the 30 minute lesson things improved remarkably as I followed his lead. By the end of the lesson we were moving beautifully and effortlessly. I was blown away. He also told me "You become who you dance with. Only dance with the best because you have the ability, but you must follow. Do NOT dance with a shltty lead. You are not helping yourself in doing that."

He also said "The connection drives the dance. Your body must listen to mine through the connection. You know the steps, but you must learn to read the connection. Connection is much harder to master than steps. From connection you will feel everything you need to do when I guide you to do it."

For me it was a wonderful metaphor for life. The men I date now are leaders, they are successful men. They expect respect and a woman who can follow, who can submit and defer. Because I am successful in my own right I will only dance with the best, for I have the ability. And this is also true in life. But I have much to unlearn from shouldering an unnatural role for so many years. It inspires me and makes me smile. But I am evolving and I already see the joy in embracing the feminine role consciously.

So become your best selves gentlemen. Get out there and LEAD your lives. And perhaps you will find a wonderful follow with whom you can dance beautifully and effortlessly...if only you will lead well...and establish connection.

Cheers!
Good post and interesting to see that someone has written about this.

I've been meaning to write a thread about my experiences in salsa and bachata class and
this is precisely one of my observations and indeed a reoccurring issue.

I find myself saying over and over that the dance class is a microcosm of modern day
society. "Some" women have huge difficulties with "allowing" the man to lead and in turn
"some" of the men have difficulties in actually taking the lead.

......the restult........is not a pleasant, fluid danse choreographed by two bodies in unison and creating
a brillant, effortless flow....

.....but rather, a stiff, out of time, awkward sequence of movements carried out by two individuals who happen to be in very close proximity to each other.

....a definite microcosm of the modern inter gender relations.
 

mrgoodstuff

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This what I was trying to tell people. Just because you are attractive and hi value does not mean a lady will not cheat on you. She might cheat on you for that purpose alone.
You do know sometimes they cheat you to "beat you" in some sort of crazy ego game. They might even know for a fact you are all that and can have you fill of the ladies.
 
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