Not Really a Grown Man

[SW15]

Things have been backwards for a long time. Couples used to date to see if they wanted to have sex. Now they have sex to see if they want to date.

This is why it is important to have really good sex when having sex with a new partner for the first time. A woman won't want to date a man if their first instance of sex isn't high quality. Women operate on "all the feelz" and a mediocre to subpar instance of sex isn't going to give them "all the feelz".

There have been times when I could have gotten a first date lay or same night lay from a bar but knew the sex wouldn't have been good due to some combination of alcohol intoxication and exhaustion. As a result, I passed.

Quality of sex doesn't matter as much to guys who are looking to bump up their notch counts. I'm more longer term relationship focused so having sex once with multiple women isn't as appealing as having sex multiple times with one woman.

There is a reason why a lot of same night lays at the bar don't result in 2nd instances of sex. I think it has to do with possible physical complications from alcohol and late night exhaustion and the lack of an emotional connection prior to sex.

Wheat Waffles covered this from 2:11 - 3:07 in the video below. I am linking at the 2:11 mark.

Unpopular opinion…it was a sh*t test and you failed. She was fishing for your experience with children, eg siblings’ kids, friends’ kids.

It wasn’t just one sh*t test he failed. He failed multiple ones. The only one that OP really noticed was the big one at the end that he posted about.

To pass, all he had to do was to mention whatever experience he had with children, demonstrate he likes children, and very subtly hint a willingness to commit in some small way to her children.

This was never done, so after failing multiple tests of vetting she gave him one outrageous, ridiculous sh*t test at the end.

It would have been interesting to know more about the rest of the interaction and the smaller shiit tests earlier in it.

Most men who are 30+ have had some sort of experience with children at some point prior to then. A man can cite experiences with nieces and nephews by his 30s in most cases. Even if he doesn't have experience with nieces and nephews, he could have mentioned experience with much younger siblings or cousins that he had as a teen or in his early 20s. He could probably cite experiences with a friend's child(ren) or even have had some babysitting experience. He could have mentioned a childless ex-girlfriend's nieces or nephews. There's always some sort of experience to draw upon there. Thinking back on things, I recall an interaction I had in a bar when I was 21 and there was a 23 year old single mom I approached that night. I could have mentioned babysitting experience that I had even then. In that approach, I auto-ejected because I didn't know women as well. Auto-ejecting from an interaction with a single mom isn't a bad thing.

By one's 30s, I think it should be assumed that there will be single mom interactions. It should be assumed that a man can pre-emptively avoid a shiit test by acknowledging she's a single mom and mentioning experiences with children as a childless guy. This can enable sex to happen, for those childless men interested in "hit it and quit it" with a single mom. Some childless men are interested in that, and that can expand notch options in one's 30s/40s.

The other play for a childless man when doing that is to get her interested by mentioning experience with children, then walk away. That's much better for the ego than getting rejected by a single mom.

it is much better to disqualify than to be disqualified.

This is so true. The "one date, no sex, no second date" interactions I have had where I wanted more from the interaction but the woman didn't bothered me far more than the ones where I wanted nothing to do with the woman as a result of the first date.

No major loss here, what with her being a single mom and all.

This is true. A lot of childless men have no interest in relationships with single moms. We have a good thread about that.

What is Your Stance on Getting into Committed Relationships with Single Moms?

As men, we are supposed to be the gatekeeper to committed relationships. Single moms are a contentious topic in the Manosphere. I want to focus this discussion upon committed relationships and not casual sex/plating arrangements. To me, that is a different topic. Men age 30+ are often...

www.sosuave.net

There are childless men who will have sex with single moms, either for one night or on some sort of ongoing basis as a plate, often for less than 12 months. While this is possible to do, it's often aggravating to do for a childless man because you're planning around sex around her time consuming parenting duties. If a childless man is having sex with a single mom in a casual sex arrangement, it's best to have at least one other childless woman in the rotation in a plating situation. A lot of childless men get frustrated when their only plate is a single mom.

Single fathers are better equipped to deal with single mothers, both in a committed relationship and in casual sex. It is always annoying to deal with planning sex around a woman's time obligations with parenting.

This is exactly why I am a fan of being pre-vetted via a circle of friends. You completely bypass the ridiculous sh*t tests of women.

Yes, I agree. Have you managed to get pre-vetted via a circle of friends? How have you gotten that circle? Few relocations over the course of your life.

I've never had a circle of friends capable of introducing me to women, even though I'm now in my late 30s and have been in the same city 10+ years. I didn't have deep social ties due to a numerous relocations prior to getting to my current city. In the past, in my primary local area social circle comprised of other adult transplants to the area (an overall weaker circle), there were some instances of women in the circle and multiple men in the circle competing for them. The competitions were intense. Also, it's worth mentioning that these were intense competitions for women who turned out to have significant flaws by my subjective judgment. One woman that multiple men, including myself, competed for turned out to be rather prudish and would make men wait months for sex.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

The guy in my social circle who won a competition for a woman who made him wait months for sex might not have actually won, though he did eventually commit to a relationship with her and marry her. He's blue pill. So many men in my social circle are blue pill. When you take the red pill or black pill, you start to see how your social circle mates fall for a lot of blue pill traps.

Pregnancy Announcements Everywhere! Life When Your Blue Pill Social Circle Starts Having Babies

Yesterday, I was on my Instagram and saw a pregnancy announcement from an acquaintance's wife in my social circle. I don't particularly like her. I find it annoying to be around her the 1-2 times a year I ever randomly see her in person. Right now, there are 3 women from my local area social...

www.sosuave.net

 

[Pedrito0906]

Topass, all he had to do was to mention whatever experience he had with children, demonstrate he likes children, and very subtly hint a willingness to commit in some small way to her children.

That is bs that you just typed, if he would've do all those explaining like a beta he would have been proving himself to her, "oh please your highness I would die to be with you, I have experience with those kids, also here, and here with my niece and here and there, please don't disqualify me please" gtfo here man, that's just pathetic. Even if he didn't know anything about kids she would take the time to teach him if she was really interested. I know cause I've been there.

She just was interested in him, so that's another form of rejection.

 

[SW15]

That is bs that you just typed, if he would've do all those explaining like a beta he would have been proving himself to her, "oh please your highness I would die to be with you, I have experience with those kids, also here, and here with my niece and here and there, please don't disqualify me please" gtfo here man, that's just pathetic. Even if he didn't know anything about kids she would take the time to teach him if she was really interested. I know cause I've been there.

Men do have the burden of proof in all cases. It doesn't matter whether alpha, sigma, beta, or omega.

Women are, men must become.

Remember Briffault's Law:

Briffault’s law maintains that “the female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” Today we would say “relationship” rather than “association.”

Log in | Psychology Today

www.psychologytoday.com

Women ditch men if they don't perceive some usefulness in him. A lot of reasons I've been ditched in life is because being friends with women is unacceptable to me. I think women have picked up on that energy and if they aren't interested in a romantic relationship with me, they exit.

It's ideal to be the one disqualifying women once we prove our superior value to them.

 

[derby1]

My guess is she dated some guy in the past that didn't like dealing with her kids and ended it with her.

I know single moms and Ive dated them. if she has more than 1 daughter only, I guarantee the house will be a totalsh*t show of dysfunction and no discipline.

 

[bat soup]

I'd like to share my latest conversation with a woman I've been trying to date. She's a single mom (many of you will stop reading at this point) and said because I have no kids, I can't consider myself a grown man. She wants a guy with kid raising experience. I told her good luck and ended the conversation there. Normally things like this wouldn't bother me but are we seriously at the point where everything is essentially backwards which is to have kids THEN get into a relationship?

Grow up and do what this woman tells you to do. How dare you have your own ideas about what you want to do with your life?

Remember guys - you're not a real man unless you do what a woman wants.

 

[LTG71]

Things have been backwards for a long time. Couples used to date to see if they wanted to have sex. Now they have sex to see if they want to date.

This is why women lost their sh!t when Roe vs Wade got overturned. Now they just can’t hoe around and have to be more RESPONSIBLE. I’d venture to guess that the proportion of women getting pregnant from rape/incest vs being a hoe making bad choices is very low.

She’s looking for a sugar daddy to pay for her mistakes. Women fight psychologically and tried to use shaming tactics on the OP. His “manhood“ has nothing to do with it. Also, where‘s the “man” that knocked her up???

A friend of a female acquaintance got knocked up and chose to leave the father. She tried to spin it as she was a brave feminist single mom that didn’t need a man. I told her that the well-being of the child is what is most important. Kids need a stable home with both parents fulfilling their roles. She shut up after that. Some women think kids are an accessory. Dodged a bullet with this one.

 

[ThisIsSparta]

Men do have the burden of proof in all cases. It doesn't matter whether alpha, sigma, beta, or omega.

The only thing a man has to proof to a woman is that he is THE GUY THAT OTHER WOMEN WANNA FVCK AND OTHER MEN WANT TO BE.

If you have to qualify to her over your childcare skills, you have already lost.

Women will make men qualify if they have low interest in them. Meanwhile they fvck Chad and Tyrone on first date without creating obstacles.

 

[jaymbrs]

A friend of a female acquaintance got knocked up and chose to leave the father. She tried to spin it as she was a brave feminist single mom that didn’t need a man. I told her that the well-being of the child is what is most important. Kids need a stable home with both parents fulfilling their roles. She shut up after that. Some women think kids are an accessory. Dodged a bullet with this one.

My friend is dealing with this right now with his kids mom. She thought it'd be better to put him on child support than for him to continue living at their home. They have totally different parenting styles and she didn't want to work on it.

 

[tightgrp]

Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.

Women ditch men if they don't perceive some usefulness in him. A lot of reasons I've been ditched in life is because being friends with women is unacceptable to me. I think women have picked up on that energy and if they aren't interested in a romantic relationship with me, they exit.

Spot on. So many of them offer little more than a moist sleeve, head games and an overall drag on productivity. Friendship with a woman has so little to offer but, if one lets emotion override rational thought, he can convince himself that it does.

 

[SW15]

The only thing a man has to proof to a woman is that he is THE GUY THAT OTHER WOMEN WANNA FVCK AND OTHER MEN WANT TO BE.

If you have to qualify to her over your childcare skills, you have already lost.

Women will make men qualify if they have low interest in them. Meanwhile they fvck Chad and Tyrone on first date without creating obstacles.

A man that is considered alpha or sigma has to prove that he is the guy that other women desire to have sex with and that other men want to be. Beyond that, he doesn't have to proof much.

If a man doesn't meet that standard, he'll have a much bigger burden of proof. Yes, you're correct that women make rules for betas and break them for alpha/sigmas.

A single mom will want to fucck a guy more if they think he's got stronger childcare skills. However, if the guy is 6'0"+, has big muscles, and has an attractive personal style, childcare history won't be as relevant.

This is why women lost their sh!t when Roe vs Wade got overturned. Now they just can’t hoe around and have to be more RESPONSIBLE. I’d venture to guess that the proportion of women getting pregnant from rape/incest vs being a hoe making bad choices is very low.

She’s looking for a sugar daddy to pay for her mistakes. Women fight psychologically and tried to use shaming tactics on the OP. His “manhood“ has nothing to do with it. Also, where‘s the “man” that knocked her up???

A friend of a female acquaintance got knocked up and chose to leave the father. She tried to spin it as she was a brave feminist single mom that didn’t need a man. I told her that the well-being of the child is what is most important. Kids need a stable home with both parents fulfilling their roles. She shut up after that. Some women think kids are an accessory. Dodged a bullet with this one.

Roe vs. Wade getting overturned wasn't a big deal for the typical USA male. Even the typical USA female isn't that affected by it.

A lot of women live in states where access to abortion hasn't been changed at all. Even in states with restricted abortion access, it's not that big of a deal. If women use readily accessible birth control well, it's not going to have an affect because she's far less likely to have an unplanned pregnancy.

There are also plenty of women who are for legal abortion but wouldn't have an abortion themselves. White women with bachelor's degree who are usually 27/28+ are more prone to keep the baby on the occasions when they get pregnant in an unplanned manner. That's often creates the more upscale single mom who isn't on government dependency programs.

There are ways around individual state restrictions on abortion. Mostly related to traveling to other states for an abortion.

 

[sangheilios]

This is a common stigma against childless men. It is most commonly held by single moms. There are even some older childless women (35-54) who will think that childless men of a similar age are immature.

As childless Millennials get older, I expect this stigma to decrease a little bit because of the increase in childlessness.

With previous generations, especially the baby boomer generation, it was highly unusual for a man to have not been married with kids. With the millennials and now gen zs getting older, I believe that the norm will be unmarried with no children. Naturally the stigma or oddity associated with this will disappear. In fact, I actually believe that it will be unusual to be married and have children. Those in the millenial and gen z cohort that are having children are typically unmarried single mothers where the fathers are near or totally absent from the child's life. It's also becoming more common for people to have multiple children with various partners. I believe that all of this is going to be the downfall of our society in the decades to come.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I'd like to share my latest conversation with a woman I've been trying to date. She's a single mom (many of you will stop reading at this point) and said because I have no kids, I can't consider myself a grown man. She wants a guy with kid raising experience. I told her good luck and ended the conversation there. Normally things like this wouldn't bother me but are we seriously at the point where everything is essentially backwards which is to have kids THEN get into a relationship?

No, it's valid. I'm the same way. I have no interest in women without kids. She wants to know that you have certain shared experiences that relate to kids which can only happen when you have your own.

There is nothing wrong with her wanting that, anymore than many posters who don't have kids not wanting a woman with kids.

 

[jaymbrs]

No, you're just hanging around low mentality people with no standards and plenty of mistakes behind them. Let the parents date the parents and leave us childless people to procreate in our own families without baggage.

I beg to differ. I think most people would rather prefer a new partner without any baggage, children or an unacceptable body count.

Of course, water seeks its own level. (Not you just people in general).

See @BackInTheGame78 post above. Just one of multiple responses I’ve heard/read from men.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Also, IMO having kids isn't what makes you a "grown man" or not. Plenty of dudes with kids are the furthest thing from a grown man there is.

Lacking full perspective? Sure. Not a grown man? Not so much.

 

[jaymbrs]

Also, IMO having kids isn't what makes you a "grown man" or not. Plenty of dudes with kids are the furthest thing from a grown man there is.

Lacking full perspective? Sure. Not a grown man? Not so much.

And that was the real intent of my post. Is her wording. The fact she chose to put it like that made me walk away.

 

[zekko]

This is why women lost their sh!t when Roe vs Wade got overturned. Now they just can’t hoe around and have to be more RESPONSIBLE.

If there's one thing modern values is not about, it's being responsible. Tell a feminist to be responsible and she'll look at you like you're trying to set her on fire.

 

[Murk]

See @BackInTheGame78 post above. Just one of multiple responses I’ve heard/read from men.

He’s agreeing with me, parents should date parents.

Thankfully I only dated 1 single mother, who was my boss, back when I was 25. I have more self respect than that now.

 

[SW15]

With previous generations, especially the baby boomer generation, it was highly unusual for a man to have not been married with kids.

I agree that this was the case with the GI Generation, the Silent Generation, and the Baby Boomers.

With the millennials and now gen zs getting older, I believe that the norm will be unmarried with no children. Naturally the stigma or oddity associated with this will disappear. In fact, I actually believe that it will be unusual to be married and have children. Those in the millenial and gen z cohort that are having children are typically unmarried single mothers where the fathers are near or totally absent from the child's life.

I often say that no one's social circle is a representative sample. In my social circle, I've seen plenty of marriages and even some failed marriages. Lots of kids. I'm the unusual one in my social circle with no marriages and no kids. I think the stigma around childless men is fading but not entirely disappearing.

Unmarried births are becoming more and more common.

Births to unmarried women U.S. percentage 1980-2022 | Statista

In 1980, some 18 percent of all women in the United States who gave birth were unmarried.

www.statista.com

There is a fatherhood and family structure crisis in the United States and many other Western nations.

It's also becoming more common for people to have multiple children with various partners. I believe that all of this is going to be the downfall of our society in the decades to come.

There's a good argument to be made for that.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I'd like to share my latest conversation with a woman I've been trying to date. She's a single mom (many of you will stop reading at this point) and said because I have no kids, I can't consider myself a grown man. She wants a guy with kid raising experience. I told her good luck and ended the conversation there. Normally things like this wouldn't bother me but are we seriously at the point where everything is essentially backwards which is to have kids THEN get into a relationship?

Haven't read the whole thread, but I wouldn't read into this too much. This is a jaded woman looking to be exclusive and restrictive when she doesn't have the clout for it, and the "must have kids" thing is simply the excuse.

I've seen women who are leftist or right wing, vaccinated or unvaccinated making demand that you must match their views/vax status. The common demoninator? Resting b1tch faces.

Denominator, not demoninator. Lol.

 

[LTG71]

My friend is dealing with this right now with his kids mom. She thought it'd be better to put him on child support than for him to continue living at their home. They have totally different parenting styles and she didn't want to work on it.

And the kid ends up getting effected the most by these bad decisions. Good luck to your friend.