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MtmVaott's Progress and Contemplation Diary

MtmVaott

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MtmVaott

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What to do after I experience a behavior I don't like, or if I expected something and the other person didn't fulfill my expectation.
Aka boundary setting:

That is just telling the other person how to please me. So I ask the other person to change FOR ME (relationship building).
If the other person values me, he/she will do it. If not, I have to take the consequences and value the other person far less.

What usually is missed: I've just discovered differing core values, beliefs, or development stages in life.
I have to evaluate now if they are compatible or incompatible with mine (buying a relationship).
If not, the relationship must be limited so that the incompatibility does not interfere with my self-actualization.

Another point: Relationships don't exist. There are only two people interacting with each other. There is no 'third instance'.
The third instance is an artificial construct the ego can cling to, and it's purpose is to give a false sense of security to those who feel insecure in the world and life.
So there is nothing to be built, only two people compromising for each other, valueing each other, wanting each other sexually, and who are a good fit.
What is really meant with building a relationship is the building of value for each other. But that happens over time because of the good fit, which is how good the buy was.

So what do I have to do in real life?
1. Set the boundary to value myself
a) explicitely ("I like/don't like...", "it makes me feel ...")
b) if the 'incident' is a reflection of my value to the other person, implicitely (walk away, distance, detach)
2. Make an educated guess about the person's underlying value/belief/development stage
3. Inquire my own value/belief/development stage
4. Evaluate the compatibility
5. Draw immediate consequences
6. Write everything down to remember
 
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MtmVaott

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I am going through old posts by Pook. He says about himself he is a former Nice Guy. So, he had abandonment issues.
In https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/kill-that-desperation.16926/page-3 he says he is fulfilled by passions and interests so much he no longer needs the validation of women.
That's a good one.
Personally, I get stoked about hobbies where I can express myself in a way.
Like learning to play an instrument. I used to play theatre, I liked to give a good performance to the audience. Maybe I should give drawing and writing a try.
Fishing will become a hobby of mine as well soon. My main motivation for that was to have a reason to get out in nature and have a reason to craft equipment.
Sadly, gym isn't that fulfilling for me. I avoid every hobby where I have to express myself to other people because of my own dysfunctional beliefs, dysfunctional negative thoughts and dysfunctional thought-behaviour spirals. So no martial arts in the near future.
Consuming hobbies are no actual hobbies for me. I don't get fulfilled by watching a movie. Nor by going to a concert. That's like going to the sauna. It's relaxation. That stuff is abundant but it isn't needed much.
But I need more active time I am stoked about, and then I could really take a little time to relax.
So like Pook says, making myself happier and also making sure I get enough sleep.
This is what it looks like:
I had plans. I was unfolding my own destiny. I intended to do this, this, and that and improve myself in these several areas right now. To hell what they did!
It's grandeur in a positive way. Unfolding is the right word here. Unfoldig oneself.
 

Dr.Suave

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I wonder what happened to Pook. I guess he moved on.
 

MtmVaott

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Lol, and he came to the same conclusion as me in my previous thread how to socialize with women when you aren't ready. But he outlines it sharper:
Some guys ask, "How can I NOT get nervous around the girl I like?" There will ALWAYS be excitement. This is the spark of life. Treasure it. Cherish it for it makes life worth living.
Stop reacting to what women are doing. They will think what they think and do what they do. To help you out, don't immediately desire a girlfriend. Treat them all the same and keep your life's focus on YOU. You think you do that now, but you aren't.
Picture a frozen guy, shaking, and stuttering to the girl he likes. Funny, eh? Absolutely CUTE. But cute in a babyish way, not in manly manner.
I was like the above. I was shy, quiet, kept to myself. Nature, however, has the last say. I very much desired a woman, particular women. How to go about it?
Don't even think of dating for the moment. Go around and TALK. Get comfortable doing THAT. Get comfortable going out and doing things.
My gut said, "Pook, they are flirting with you." To hell with that gut! I stayed the course.
"Pook," my mind said, "they are in lustful thoughts about you; you can see it in their eyes." To HELL what their lustful thoughts!
My nerves then said, "Pook, they are touching you, initiating kino with you. They are making excuses to touch you, to feel you..." TO HELL WHAT THEY DO!
You are the guy. They expect you to make the move. This is excellent for social practice. You can talk to them all you want to and you DON'T have to ask them out. You can go out and do fun crazy stuff without asking them out.
And when girls love seeing the happy, fun to talk to, you, and ask YOU out, you can simply say NO. The girls will then proceed to call you GAY. Because they will think, "He's cute and fun and girls are after him. Yet, he won't go for them. What's wrong? Is he GAY?"
It's the stamp that says you're Don Juan because 1) Multiple girls are thinking of you in a sexual way and 2) They all want to go out with you.
This is why its important to take a break from girl hunting not in physical form (as removing yourself from the vicinity of girls)but in the mental form (as in wanting gf or wondering what is going on in their heads). Stay the course. Keep your compass set to YOU.
And I actually think Pooks explanations about desire and being the prize are unhelpful and just backwards rationalisations why he became successful with women. I think he became successful solely because he is unfolding and the positive feedback loop....his mindset became clearer around 2002. He explains desirelessness further as a training wheel, but I can't get into this for today. And this is the next thread with good content of him I want to screen through: https://www.sosuave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000265.html
 

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MtmVaott

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Dr.Suave

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Must be nice being so enlightened you cant post here anymore. But in a way, I get it. Guys keep coming here asking the same questions, doing the same mistakes, ignoring the same advise.
 

MtmVaott

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True. I have to admit I thought very little of Pook because of the first entry in the Don Juan bible, I considered it as unhelpful and shallow advice and still think it is. I stopped reading after that.
But he evolved just like everyone else here.
 

MtmVaott

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I read both of Pook's threads now.
There is something cristallizing: The power engine for self-actualization.

Pook wrote Speed Seduction (I assume Pick Up) helped him becoming a Don Juan (someone who just is and who lives life for himself).
Also his 'guideposts' like 'be the prize', 'desirelessness', 'be a challenge' helped him. These are basically positive affirmations. And they kickstart the engine.

I myself experienced the power engine while I faked 'Alpha behavior'. However, mine crashed.

So what I could see is he describes the fuel to the engine as doing what makes him happy, fulfilled. His passions and hobbies.
It's recommended to go where women are, also talking to them, but not reacting, not asking out, rejecting if necessary.
Because the developing Nice Guy rises and falls with validation from others, even more fuel goes into the engine.
But the fuel can't leak, because he never takes the risk of asking out, never makes any moves whatsoever and doesn't even look more into her eyes than necessary. The engine will crash as soon as the ego is swallen enough. Instead of into the ego, direct the impulsion:

This engine isn't designed to 'get girls', it's designed to use the validation of girls to propel and fuel my own development:
Making myself happier and more fulfilled. Spending time with people who are compatible to me and where I feel free around. Changing my core beliefs, making my thinking constructive and optimistic. Being me. Getting to know me.
 

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I wonder what happened to Pook. I guess he moved on.
Pook last signed in here in October of 2013. He didn't post. I used to speak privately with him quite a bit, both here and outside of SS, but I lost track of him. Definitely a good guy. I find myself wondering if he is still on this earth as it wasn't like him to just disappear from private communications.
 

MtmVaott

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What to do after I experience a behavior I don't like, or if I expected something and the other person didn't fulfill my expectation.
Aka boundary setting:

That is just telling the other person how to please me. So I ask the other person to change FOR ME (relationship building).
If the other person values me, he/she will do it. If not, I have to take the consequences and value the other person far less.

What usually is missed: I've just discovered differing core values, beliefs, or development stages in life.
I have to evaluate now if they are compatible or incompatible with mine (buying a relationship).
If not, the relationship must be limited so that the incompatibility does not interfere with my self-actualization.

Another point: Relationships don't exist. There are only two people interacting with each other. There is no 'third instance'.
The third instance is an artificial construct the ego can cling to, and it's purpose is to give a false sense of security to those who feel insecure in the world and life.
So there is nothing to be built, only two people compromising for each other, valueing each other, wanting each other sexually, and who are a good fit.
What is really meant with building a relationship is the building of value for each other. But that happens over time because of the good fit, which is how good the buy was.

So what do I have to do in real life?
1. Set the boundary to value myself
a) explicitely ("I like/don't like...", "it makes me feel ...")
b) if the 'incident' is a reflection of my value to the other person, implicitely (walk away, distance, detach)
2. Make an educated guess about the person's underlying value/belief/development stage
3. Inquire my own value/belief/development stage
4. Evaluate the compatibility
5. Draw immediate consequences
6. Write everything down to remember
I've come to a very common compatibility issue, or more so an instant dismissal cause: Selfishness.
Selfishness is rooted in a clinging to the ego. To identify in what he/she does, or has, or attracts, .... instead of just being.
This opens the door wide for all kinds of negative traits and behaviours.
Self-lying, -deception and rationalizations can be used to use and abuse others. It's important to the selfish person to do so, since his/her worth is on the line.
Low integrity, janus-faced. Always forcing outcomes since they are defined by them. Their behaviour has covert intentions to manipulate outcomes.
Presenting a fake persona to other people to be accepted, externally validated, and/or to get what they want. This is especially dangerous and tricky by women, since they can muster a lot: Physical appearance, their good emotional intelligence, their good social intelligence, ... So they can create this illusion of an empathetic, caring, sweet, innocent girl, while actually they are merciless, indifferent, cruel and unconscionable. It doesn't matter if they are really that evil, or if they only do it because they bend their own reality with self-lies to cope with their perceived low self-worth: The difference only is in the amount of external validation they get to feed their ego. The insecure selfish girl mutates to the 'innocent' evil selfish girl, if she suddenly gets a lot of external validation and opportunities.
It's also important that confident selfish people can be perceived as self-accepting. However, their confidence is a product of their expediant, egotistical beliefs that make them achieve the outcomes in life they need to feel worthy. It's not because they accept their 'unwanted parts'.
I bet selfish women are the same who 'divorce rape'. Also the same that choose to disrespect instead of addressing it in a respectful way when the man doesn't value himself.

Women who are selfish have been a steady source of pain in my life. Time to pay more attention to keep those at a distance.
 

Plinco

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There's nothing wrong with being selfish, provided that you are rational and understand the long term consequences. As for those selfish women in your life that harmed your ego, let them suffer the consequences from you as a result. Giving other people consequences is selfish.
 

MtmVaott

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There's nothing wrong with being selfish, provided that you are rational and understand the long term consequences. As for those selfish women in your life that harmed your ego, let them suffer the consequences from you as a result. Giving other people consequences is selfish.
Are you referring to behaviour based on self-love or selfishness?
I want to react to disrespect with disregard, not with the purpose to punish, but because this is what is right if I want to be good to myself. I consider the first to be selfish, the second as self-loving/-respecting, though it causes the woman to suffer as well and looks the same from the outside.
 

Plinco

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Are you referring to behaviour based on self-love or selfishness?
I want to react to disrespect with disregard, not with the purpose to punish, but because this is what is right if I want to be good to myself. I consider the first to be selfish, the second as self-loving/-respecting, though it causes the woman to suffer as well and looks the same from the outside.
Selfishness is self love if you are rational about it (think about the long term consequences).

Disregarding someone is a form of punishment if that person is seeking your attention. Punishing someone for not acting appropriately is good for you and the other person too. As far as respect is concerned, pride is a virtue but it's more important to not be deluded.
 

MtmVaott

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Selfishness is self love if you are rational about it (think about the long term consequences).

Disregarding someone is a form of punishment if that person is seeking your attention. Punishing someone for not acting appropriately is good for you and the other person too. As far as respect is concerned, pride is a virtue but it's more important to not be deluded.
This is similar to people who don't disclose their intentions and then try to 'selfishly' achieve what is good for them personally, right? In a way that doesn't hurt them in the long run.
I think my separation is in the intention, between people who do this from a place of love for themselves and those who do it out of a place of lack. Their behaviour looks similar from the outside. It's like 'good guy' vs. 'jerk'.
In the example of disregard, I would just see it as beneath me to talk to the woman that disrespected me and would be unwilling to talk to her. But not to punish.
The intention is the difference to those 'selfish' women.

What do you mean with not being deluded by pride?
 

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MtmVaott

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I've come to a very common compatibility issue, or more so an instant dismissal cause: Selfishness.
Selfishness is rooted in a clinging to the ego. To identify in what he/she does, or has, or attracts, .... instead of just being.
This opens the door wide for all kinds of negative traits and behaviours.
Self-lying, -deception and rationalizations can be used to use and abuse others. It's important to the selfish person to do so, since his/her worth is on the line.
Low integrity, janus-faced. Always forcing outcomes since they are defined by them. Their behaviour has covert intentions to manipulate outcomes.
Presenting a fake persona to other people to be accepted, externally validated, and/or to get what they want. This is especially dangerous and tricky by women, since they can muster a lot: Physical appearance, their good emotional intelligence, their good social intelligence, ... So they can create this illusion of an empathetic, caring, sweet, innocent girl, while actually they are merciless, indifferent, cruel and unconscionable. It doesn't matter if they are really that evil, or if they only do it because they bend their own reality with self-lies to cope with their perceived low self-worth: The difference only is in the amount of external validation they get to feed their ego. The insecure selfish girl mutates to the 'innocent' evil selfish girl, if she suddenly gets a lot of external validation and opportunities.
It's also important that confident selfish people can be perceived as self-accepting. However, their confidence is a product of their expediant, egotistical beliefs that make them achieve the outcomes in life they need to feel worthy. It's not because they accept their 'unwanted parts'.
I bet selfish women are the same who 'divorce rape'. Also the same that choose to disrespect instead of addressing it in a respectful way when the man doesn't value himself.

Women who are selfish have been a steady source of pain in my life. Time to pay more attention to keep those at a distance.
And to put the bar even higher, for a serious relationship, this means to reject every woman who isn't loving to their friends and strangers.

And being warm and loving is completely separated from highly empathetic, polite, compliant, respectful, ... can't be faked, means she loves herself instead of being selfish and is a big green light for me.
 
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Plinco

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This is similar to people who don't disclose their intentions and then try to 'selfishly' achieve what is good for them personally, right? In a way that doesn't hurt them in the long run.
I think my separation is in the intention, between people who do this from a place of love for themselves and those who do it out of a place of lack. Their behaviour looks similar from the outside. It's like 'good guy' vs. 'jerk'.
In the example of disregard, I would just see it as beneath me to talk to the woman that disrespected me and would be unwilling to talk to her. But not to punish.
The intention is the difference to those 'selfish' women.

What do you mean with not being deluded by pride?
You are thinking too abstract, and it looks like English is not your first language.

First of all, cut all notions of selfishness as being wrong out of your head. Being selfish does not mean being out to harm others, or having to hide intentions. Selfish means putting yourself and your interests ahead of other people's interests. Being selfish is what you should do.

If someone disrespects you, there's a reason for it; it might not be for a good reason, but it's there's a reason. The first thing you should do, is get real with yourself and do the things you need to do. For those who disrespect you for who you are, cut those people out of your life.
 

MtmVaott

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You are thinking too abstract, and it looks like English is not your first language.
Yes, it's not my first language.
First of all, cut all notions of selfishness as being wrong out of your head. Being selfish does not mean being out to harm others, or having to hide intentions. Selfish means putting yourself and your interests ahead of other people's interests. Being selfish is what you should do.
I understand. Since I don't love myself enough, if I would start being very selfish right now, I would be narcissistic, ruthless and cruel. I suspect that is exactly what I experience from these women I call 'selfish'.
I can also see that putting my interests ahead of other people's interests is normal, I already do it. What I don't do is to put my interests ahead if it would go to the expense of others. This is the point I don't want to cross until I love myself enough to balance it.
If someone disrespects you, there's a reason for it; it might not be for a good reason, but it's there's a reason. The first thing you should do, is get real with yourself and do the things you need to do. For those who disrespect you for who you are, cut those people out of your life.
I know what you mean with the first.
For those who do it 'for who I am', it's because I communicate to them that I don't value myself. They engage in hurtful behaviour because they feel superior and it boosts their ego. Again, it's what I called 'selfish'.

So when I talked about selfishness, I meant selfishness without self-love. I don't know the term for that. Maybe being confident but ruthless and cold-hearted.
I'm still advised to look for self-loving, kind, warm persons.
 
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Reauxshambreaux

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You guys speak as if humans are simple animals. We are not. Some moments you will be selfish, others not. Some moments you will be rational, others not. Life and relationships are so complex….the theories you formulate keep you stuck in your own mind so much that you cannot relate, cannot bring out emotion, cannot have FUN, and cannot build something meaningful and lasting. Be like water, my friend.
 

MtmVaott

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You guys speak as if humans are simple animals. We are not. Some moments you will be selfish, others not. Some moments you will be rational, others not. Life and relationships are so complex….the theories you formulate keep you stuck in your own mind so much that you cannot relate, cannot bring out emotion, cannot have FUN, and cannot build something meaningful and lasting. Be like water, my friend.
It's important for me to at least write it out and order my thoughts. I can't just measure the degree of ruthlessness, but I can understand the mindset to spot it in real life. And the ruthlessness is caused by a belief like 'others don't matter' or 'I am superior'. That belief strikes out as soon as there are no negative consequences, like in a break-up, quarrel, cheating opportunity, getting favors and gifts, maintaining orbiters, and so on.
 
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