Male Friends

[Billtx49]

So how do you go about ending this?

Do it with whatever method you will feel comfortable moving into your future with. You know who you are, we don’t. This is about you at this point, not her …

 

[LiveYourDream]

Despite all my responses above about this woman and what I perceive as her showing disrespect of the OP, I believe there is yet another issue at hand. Imho it would serve the OP to also put some focus on it, no matter what happens with this one woman.

*Please know that this is intended as an observation @B80 and not as criticism of you. What I am going to share is not at all uncommon to men post LTR.

I get the sense that you are still trying to find your sea legs, back in the singles game, after your marriage and divorce. That is entirely understandable!! Men who have been working the singles market consistently are still challenged, often more than ever before, with all the dynamic changes. You are not alone in that!

My observation OP is that you sound to me like it would serve you to focus on improving knowing your own inner sense of value, and how that is projected outward. I think you could also likely be served by embodying more the knowing/belief that, *YOU are the prize*. I mean that with all respect.

I think with a greater sense of self perceived value, and realizing all that you offer, in the world and to a woman, that you would respond to a woman’s disrespect more decisively and with less hesitation and appropriately so.

Bigger than that, I think you would intrinsically know that you will have many more women to choose from in your life ahead and no part of you would feel like you should put up with or try to negotiate a woman’s disrespect. As such you will attract more women as well.

It’s my hope that this experience helps you feel stronger in yourself and leads you to even better women ahead.

 

[AlphaDraconis]

Despite all my responses above about this woman and what I perceive as her showing disrespect of the OP, I believe there is yet another issue at hand. Imho it would serve the OP to also put some focus on it, no matter what happens with this one woman.

*Please know that this is intended as an observation @B80 and not as criticism of you. What I am going to share is not at all uncommon to men post LTR.

I get the sense that you are still trying to find your sea legs, back in the singles game, after your marriage and divorce. That is entirely understandable!! Men who have been working the singles market consistently are still challenged, often more than ever before, with all the dynamic changes. You are not alone in that!

My observation OP is that you sound to me like it would serve you to focus on improving your own inner sense of value, and how that is projected outward. I think you could also likely be served by embodying more the knowing/belief that, *YOU are the prize*. I mean that with all respect.

I think with a greater sense of self perceived value, and realizing all that you offer, in the world and to a woman, that you would respond to a woman’s disrespect more decisively and with less hesitation and appropriately so.

Bigger than that, I think you would intrinsically know that you will have many more women to choose from in your life ahead and no part of you would feel like you should put up with or try to negotiate a woman’s disrespect. As such you will attract more women as well.

It’s my hope that this experience helps you feel stronger in yourself and leads you to even better women ahead.

Yes, agreed. I know this ‘you’re the prize’ has become somewhat of a PUA trope, but you really do have to view yourself as king of your own world and treat yourself as such, even if others don’t see you as such. And while on that note, if a guy is going to treat a woman like a Queen, he should expect to be treated like a King. No ifs or buts about it.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Yes, agreed. I know this ‘you’re the prize’ has become somewhat of a PUA trope, but you really do have to view yourself as king of your own world and treat yourself as such, even if others don’t see you as such. And while on that note, if a guy is going to treat a woman like a Queen, he should expect to be treated like a King. No ifs or buts about it.

Exactly!

And... “Being the Prize” or “Being the King of your Kingdom” is also NOT synonymous with a man needing to be more of an azzh*le.

Often times men mistake that and then overcompensate and try to hide their insecurities, from others, specifically by being more of an azzh*le.

As most know and have experienced, those men simply then come across, to others, as insecure azzh*les. Contrary to what they may think, nobody is truly impressed by an insecure azzh*le. Not even most women. Certainly not for long.

Not only is it not attractive but it is not going to help sustain and grow a healthy LTR, if that’s a man’s goal.

Congruency is key, as I see it.

 

[rjc149]

It would help to know the history between your gf and this man. How long have they known each other?

Here's the thing: they have rapport and connection that pre-dates yours. Even if it was never sexual or romantic (if they're both attractive, that's doubtful), you need to understand that demanding she cease contact with a close friend is not only not going to happen, but it will make you look jealous, controlling, and fearful -- insecure. And you will attract what you fear. Behaving in an insecure manner will quickly drive her into the arms of another man, whether this guy or another guy she has in the wings.

On the other hand, if you expect a relationship to work, you need to communicate. Most of the "be alpha, hold frame, act aloof" advice is for the attraction/courtship phase. You're now past that, in the relationship phase. Of course, you still need to behave like a strong, masculine man -- but now, you have a right to make yourself heard. If something bugs you, you need to clear the air.

Tricky part is, understandably, that clearing the air on this will make you look a little insecure and vulnerable. There is a fairly likely chance that there is honest-to-God nothing going on with her and him, and you have nothing to worry about.

But if you expect this relationship to last and be fulfilling, you have to communicate your feelings and boundaries to her. If you want a relationship to last, you can't be scared of being a little vulnerable. Be emotionally brave. Otherwise, this is just a fling or a "plate" as per the forum parlance and you should expect it to be temporary.

Don't make this an ongoing thing. But bring it up directly. "Hey, I get that he's your friend and nothing's going on, but I feel disrespected that a week after you ask me to be exclusive, you're Netflix and chilling with a guy alone in your apartment, and acting like I'm supposed to be totally cool with it. I'm not going to stop you or forbid you from seeing your friend, it's not reasonable of me to do that. But you should know how I feel about this. That's all."

Don't give her ultimatums. Don't make her promise you anything. And don't ever bring it up again. State it once, directly, and clearly. Clear the air, and observe her reaction and subsequent behavior. That will tell you whether this woman is a worthy candidate for you, or just a "plate."

Pretending that you're aloof and unconcerned while you're bottling up resentment is not going to make this a healthy relationship, if that's what you want. Being afraid that you'll come off as insecure and jealous is also fear-based mindset and it's unattractive.

If she's going to hook up with this guy, nothing you do or say will stop her. If she's a cheater, she's going to cheat on you eventually, regardless.

If she cares about you and wants this relationship to work, she's going to listen to you and validate you. If she's totally turned off by your insecurity and weakness, well, something at some point was going to turn her off so might as well enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Generally speaking, dating attractive, extroverted women with a lot of guy friends is seen, justifiably, as a red flag. But going around continually distrusting a partner is not a relationship worth having. So you have to trust -- but verify. You are now exclusive, and you now have a right to information about her and who she's hanging out with. If she acts like you have no right to her personal life, she's not your girlfriend. Period.

Make your feelings clear, observe her carefully thereafter, and have a foot out the door. This is the probationary period. If you sense deception, or that she starts distancing herself, be ready, willing, and able to walk away at a moment's notice. Don't tell her that you are, just be ready to do it, and do it when this relationship no longer makes you happy.

 

[B80]

Thanks for all the input last night. Foolishly drank **** load of vodka...

Just want to clear up one point, I said about her friend saying I was a good man. This wasn't strictly true.

She said he said something about
One day she ll find someone who likes her and her daughter for who they are, despite the drama.

This was after a load of drama between her and her ex leading up to Xmas.

A week ago she said she thought tge drama with ex may have scared me off, I said it doesn't effect my view of her, I like her, spending time together and the drama is background noise or words to that effect. Which went down well going by her reaction. She them mentioned that's what this man told her she would hear when the right man came along. This then lead onto her asking for us to be exclusive and that I could stay over whenever, meet her daughter etc which apparently no other man shes dated has done in 3 years since divorce.

Sorry for misleading as that statement I made seems to have played a big part in people's judgement.

Also after she mentioned going to bed, I responded and we did continue to text for a while before she fell asleep l. So it wasn't just her telling me she going to bed and that was the end of it.

Anyway, this morning, without being fueled by alcohol, I'm not sure it bothers me enough to approach her about yet.could create an issue that simply isn't there. One to keep an eye on for sure.

I really don't know.

Also to add, I usually have my daughter Sunday night, but that changed Sunday morning this week, so the woman would have assumed I wasn't free when she arranged to see him. So not like she chose to see him when she could have asked me instead.

 

[samspade]

Wells she's just text to say how's my evening. She had fishn chips, felt ill right after eating them and watched a film with this chap and apparently he's just left and she's off to bed.

That's pretty messed up. He was hanging at her place watching a movie alone with her?

A woman who's serious about you shouldn't even allow for the possibility that you would misunderstand something like that. That's to say, even if they just sat and watched a movie, she put herself in a time and place where her actions are in question.

But the bigger problem is your frame. You're looking at her Whatsapp status while she's offline doing whatever with this dude. OP, you need to either walk or pull wayyy back and demote her to fukk buddy status. Personally I think walking is the better option. Remember, this is about you and your value as you perceive it. You've come back with a lot of responses that you're not "worried" but you are in her frame, not vice versa.

 

[B80]

That's pretty messed up. He was hanging at her place watching a movie alone with her?

A woman who's serious about you shouldn't even allow for the possibility that you would misunderstand something like that. That's to say, even if they just sat and watched a movie, she put herself in a time and place where her actions are in question.

But the bigger problem is your frame. You're looking at her Whatsapp status while she's offline doing whatever with this dude. OP, you need to either walk or pull wayyy back and demote her to fukk buddy status. Personally I think walking is the better option. Remember, this is about you and your value as you perceive it. You've come back with a lot of responses that you're not "worried" but you are in her frame, not vice versa.

Yeah being honest I am worried about this.

Tempted by the **** buddy route, mainly as I have no other options, particularly with lockdown. Been on tinder last night ands it's just depressing.

Why would suggest walking in this situation, rather than (trying) to pull back?

You don't think it's worth saying to her what rjc mentioned above?

 

[B80]

It would help to know the history between your gf and this man. How long have they known each other?

Here's the thing: they have rapport and connection that pre-dates yours. Even if it was never sexual or romantic (if they're both attractive, that's doubtful), you need to understand that demanding she cease contact with a close friend is not only not going to happen, but it will make you look jealous, controlling, and fearful -- insecure. And you will attract what you fear. Behaving in an insecure manner will quickly drive her into the arms of another man, whether this guy or another guy she has in the wings.

On the other hand, if you expect a relationship to work, you need to communicate. Most of the "be alpha, hold frame, act aloof" advice is for the attraction/courtship phase. You're now past that, in the relationship phase. Of course, you still need to behave like a strong, masculine man -- but now, you have a right to make yourself heard. If something bugs you, you need to clear the air.

Tricky part is, understandably, that clearing the air on this will make you look a little insecure and vulnerable. There is a fairly likely chance that there is honest-to-God nothing going on with her and him, and you have nothing to worry about.

But if you expect this relationship to last and be fulfilling, you have to communicate your feelings and boundaries to her. If you want a relationship to last, you can't be scared of being a little vulnerable. Be emotionally brave. Otherwise, this is just a fling or a "plate" as per the forum parlance and you should expect it to be temporary.

Don't make this an ongoing thing. But bring it up directly. "Hey, I get that he's your friend and nothing's going on, but I feel disrespected that a week after you ask me to be exclusive, you're Netflix and chilling with a guy alone in your apartment, and acting like I'm supposed to be totally cool with it. I'm not going to stop you or forbid you from seeing your friend, it's not reasonable of me to do that. But you should know how I feel about this. That's all."

Don't give her ultimatums. Don't make her promise you anything. And don't ever bring it up again. State it once, directly, and clearly. Clear the air, and observe her reaction and subsequent behavior. That will tell you whether this woman is a worthy candidate for you, or just a "plate."

Pretending that you're aloof and unconcerned while you're bottling up resentment is not going to make this a healthy relationship, if that's what you want. Being afraid that you'll come off as insecure and jealous is also fear-based mindset and it's unattractive.

If she's going to hook up with this guy, nothing you do or say will stop her. If she's a cheater, she's going to cheat on you eventually, regardless.

If she cares about you and wants this relationship to work, she's going to listen to you and validate you. If she's totally turned off by your insecurity and weakness, well, something at some point was going to turn her off so might as well enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Generally speaking, dating attractive, extroverted women with a lot of guy friends is seen, justifiably, as a red flag. But going around continually distrusting a partner is not a relationship worth having. So you have to trust -- but verify. You are now exclusive, and you now have a right to information about her and who she's hanging out with. If she acts like you have no right to her personal life, she's not your girlfriend. Period.

Make your feelings clear, observe her carefully thereafter, and have a foot out the door. This is the probationary period. If you sense deception, or that she starts distancing herself, be ready, willing, and able to walk away at a moment's notice. Don't tell her that you are, just be ready to do it, and do it when this relationship no longer makes you happy.

Hello mate and thanks for tge response.

Cant recall how long she's known him, think something like 3-5 years. She told me he almost mentors her career wise and that he's tge only person in her social circle that understands the pressures, things she goes through with her job.

My concern is that although we re now exclusive it's still relatively early days and broaching tge subject now rather than further down tge line will cause a premature detoriation of something that may have worked out.

 

[AlphaDraconis]

Thanks for all the input last night. Foolishly drank **** load of vodka...

Just want to clear up one point, I said about her friend saying I was a good man. This wasn't strictly true.

She said he said something about
One day she ll find someone who likes her and her daughter for who they are, despite the drama.

This was after a load of drama between her and her ex leading up to Xmas.

A week ago she said she thought tge drama with ex may have scared me off, I said it doesn't effect my view of her, I like her, spending time together and the drama is background noise or words to that effect. Which went down well going by her reaction. She them mentioned that's what this man told her she would hear when the right man came along. This then lead onto her asking for us to be exclusive and that I could stay over whenever, meet her daughter etc which apparently no other man shes dated has done in 3 years since divorce.

Sorry for misleading as that statement I made seems to have played a big part in people's judgement.

Also after she mentioned going to bed, I responded and we did continue to text for a while before she fell asleep l. So it wasn't just her telling me she going to bed and that was the end of it.

Anyway, this morning, without being fueled by alcohol, I'm not sure it bothers me enough to approach her about yet.could create an issue that simply isn't there. One to keep an eye on for sure.

I really don't know.

I understand your predicament regarding all of this close male friend crap. Initially you thought you could handle it, but as time wore on it’s starting to grate upon your emotions. It doesn’t feel natural to have another guy spending so much alone time with her. I know the feeling.

I can 100% predict the outcome if you open your mouth about it, hence why a silent exit strategy will allow you to leave with your dignity intact.

This problem will keep repeating itself with whichever future guy she gets involved with. Anyone with an ounce of common sense should know this, but then she does, but doesn’t care about the affect it has your emotions.

If the boot was on the other foot, it wouldn’t even make it to dating stage because women are savvy enough not to deal with that, but when it comes to them doing it you? No problem.

 

[samspade]

Yeah being honest I am worried about this.

Tempted by the **** buddy route, mainly as I have no other options, particularly with lockdown. Been on tinder last night ands it's just depressing.

Why would suggest walking in this situation, rather than (trying) to pull back?

You don't think it's worth saying to her what rjc mentioned above?

Nothing wrong with what he suggested. You can do that, too. The main pitfall is don't let it turn into you vs. him. Just make it about you: This is how I am, take it or leave it. If she tries to turn it into you vs. him ("we're just friends," or "you're paranoid") just be like, hey it's cool, just telling you how I feel. (Funny how women always say they want men to say how they feel, ha.)

From my point of view: If a female buddy I think is attractive were in my apartment watching a movie alone with me, you'd better believe I'd make a move. Until she says "no" my inference is she is asking to be fukked. (Unless her boyfriend was a close friend or there was some other consequence that to me would not make it worth it. You see how this is all situational and relative?)

 

[rjc149]

This vodka-fueled speculation is knocking you off your center and making you much more prone to emotional reaction.

If this guy is in a mentorship position over her or has some other higher alpha status than her in her sphere, that’s a recipe for hooking up. Doesn’t mean the recipe will cook into that meal.

Also, this woman is still dealing with ex drama that led up to Christmas— that was barely a month ago. She doesn’t sound in any position to be dating and you honestly sound like her rebound guy.

Doesn’t mean you should cut her off. Just observe her behavior carefully— don’t take her at her word that she truly desires exclusivity with someone right now. Maybe she does, or maybe the lovebombing is just her raw emotions talking. Expect hot and cold behavior from her.

I would not remove yourself from the dating market for her. She’s got another 90–120 days of probations in which you can walk for any reason. Have a foot out the door and be ready to walk. She has backups, so have some yourself.

 

[LiveYourDream]

I’m curious...
For the sake of clarity...
How long have you actually known this woman?
How did you meet her?
How quickly did you two get physical and escalate to sex? First date, Tenth Date, or ?
How often have you spent time together?
Is it mostly just a hook-up dynamic?
Is that what you want?
What do you want?
Again no judgement (lots of men aren’t having any sex)...
For clarity, is she the source of the most sex, or the most regular sex you’ve had, or both, since your divorce?
If you had a source of good regular sex available to you elsewhere would you still be talking to this woman?

 

[B80]

I’m curious...
For the sake of clarity...
How long have you actually known this woman?
How did you meet her?
How quickly did you two get physical and escalate to sex? First date, Tenth Date, or ?
How often have you spent time together?
Is it mostly just a hook-up dynamic?
Is that what you want?
What do you want?
Again no judgement (lots of men aren’t having any sex)... just clarity...
Is she the source of the most sex, or the most regular sex you’ve had, or both, since your divorce?
If you had a source of good regular sex available to you elsewhere would you still be talking to this woman?

Introduced by mutual friends. well acquaintances my side, they're her friends. they suggested to me at a friends birthday that they know of someone I may get on well with. she was divorced nearly 4 years ago, me just over 3. they told her too, we matched a few days after on tinder. this was around 2 and bit years ago. got on well over text, but after a brief exchange and offer from her to meet up, I just stopped responding... busy with my daughter, business, job, gym etc, had little spare time and didn't want to mess someone around close to social circle.We then text again around a year or so back, but I quickly lost interest as still didn;t feel like time right.

Started texted again in September and we agreed to meet in a pub. Hit it off right away, kissed at end of first date and she has admitted since if it wasn't for her ex dropping her daughter off that evening, she wanted to go back to hers a sleep with me that day. Slept together on 2nd date.

Due to her having child most of the time, we were seeing each other once or twice a week for the fist couple of months. She'd make arrangements with her parents to look after her daughter sometimes so we could spend day/night together. We did a weekend away in december. last week she said I can stay over whenever now, shes happy for me to be around daughter, apparently first man she's dating that shes allowed this to happen with. We've been out together a few times recently with our kids. She bought me a load of presents for my birthday last weekend.

Not sure on hookup dynamic, definitely sexually charged relationship, a fair bit of talk around sex in texts, great sex ... really compatible on that level, can't keep our hands off each other.

At beginning I was open minded and wasn't looking for anything, as times gone on become a bit more involved started believing something more could come of this, whilst still maintaining a dose of sceptism around getting too carried away due to a few red flags: drama with ex (went off the rails, did more and more odd stuff the past couple of months, but appears to be sane again for now), she admitted to having 1 night stand in July and needed an abortion, was seeing a 25 year old man she was just 15. Parents moved her to another town as a result of what happened and the dodgy circles of people she hung around with... haven't had full story there yet.

yeah since divorce 3 years ago she is the first and only person I've had sex with.

not sure if relevant but she has extremely stressful job in management, loves her career, apparently earning over £100k already. I'm 41 shes 31. she met her ex husband in early 20's, she left him when child was 18 months - 2 years. he was working in pub at time, since then couldn't hold down 10's of menial job for any length according to her, had some scrapes with the law ... got tiresome after a while apparently. she's from quite a rough, poorish area in the town she originally came from, very close to her family though, spends a fair bit of time with them.

 

[LiveYourDream]

yeah since divorce 3 years ago she is the first and only person I've had sex with.

I suspect this elevates your tolerance for her undesirables and her disrespectful behavior, far more than you likely realize.

To make healthier choices for yourself long term, it is crucial, imho, that you back off exclusivity with her and engage other women as well.

 

[samspade]

I suspect this elevates your tolerance for her undesirables and her disrespectful behavior, far more than you likely realize.

To make healthier choices for yourself long term, it is crucial, imho, that you back off exclusivity with her and engage other women as well.

Agree 1000%. OP, if you had one or two other options you would not even be posting about this. Chew on that.

I think rather than stating your boundaries, it's better just to back away. Put the brakes on it, or end it.

Based on your writing style I'm guessing you are in the UK? I know things are rough there now and it's hard to have a social life with lockdowns and curfews. Nothing wrong with wanting companionship, but recognize it for what it is, maybe a fukk buddy. Personally I think she's using her kids and her pu$$y to try to rope you in, but she also wants to have her cake and eat it.

Her history has some red flags and she told them to you. I'm not judging - everyone's human and has history. But in my experience, less grounded girls will go out of their way to tell you their history, like it's a badge of honor. I don't know her disposition, but for me if a girl mentions something from her sexual past as either sordid/stigmatized or an attempt to get a rise out of me, I consider it a warning about her personality. Whereas if she saw it as a net positive experience, good for her. (Not that I need to know everything.)

 

[LiveYourDream]

OP, if you had one or two other options you would not even be posting about this. Chew on that.

OP This ^^^^^^^^

 

[B80]

Agree 1000%. OP, if you had one or two other options you would not even be posting about this. Chew on that.

I think rather than stating your boundaries, it's better just to back away. Put the brakes on it, or end it.

Based on your writing style I'm guessing you are in the UK? I know things are rough there now and it's hard to have a social life with lockdowns and curfews. Nothing wrong with wanting companionship, but recognize it for what it is, maybe a fukk buddy. Personally I think she's using her kids and her pu$$y to try to rope you in, but she also wants to have her cake and eat it.

Her history has some red flags and she told them to you. I'm not judging - everyone's human and has history. But in my experience, less grounded girls will go out of their way to tell you their history, like it's a badge of honor. I don't know her disposition, but for me if a girl mentions something from her sexual past as either sordid/stigmatized or an attempt to get a rise out of me, I consider it a warning about her personality. Whereas if she saw it as a net positive experience, good for her. (Not that I need to know everything.)

cheers both for the replies.

makes sense what you're both saying. too much focus on this one person, particuarly being the first person after 12 year relationship. issue is finding someone sttractive at present! chatting to a few women on tinder now

yes I'm in the UK, a largish town, not a major city.

well yeah she told me about the abortion on 2nd or 3rd date - she was drunk. apparently she had been well behaved for ages, then had a break down in july and slept with a couple of guys...

she's been texting today but tbh I can barely summon the enthusiasm to reply to her at all, which I guess is a good sign!

 

[samspade]

well yeah she told me about the abortion on 2nd or 3rd date - she was drunk. apparently she had been well behaved for ages, then had a break down in july and slept with a couple of guys...

That's just woman-speak. Women hate being judged for their sexual actions. On the other hand, they are going to do what they are going to do. They know some men will assign black and white labels on them. My MO is not so much to judge as to accept or reject based on MY principles. I guarantee most every girl in the west has had an "accident," probably also slept with an older guy as a teen, etc.

If you truly want to grow as a man, get in tune with her subcomms. Her verbal stuff is just that. Her sub communication will leak out and you will see what kind of respect she has for you (any girl). That way you can avoid assigning madonna/wh0re narratives and being jarred by back stories. Like I keep saying, it's all about you: Inner game, frame, and just the secure knowledge that you don't need her.

she's been texting today but tbh I can barely summon the enthusiasm to reply to her at all, which I guess is a good sign!

Good for you. Just be true to yourself. Once the interactions stop being a net positive for me, I start to plan an exit. (Believe me, I've learned a lot of stuff the hard way.)

 

[rart]

You perception of women is clouded by a long dry spell. I dated the exact same woman a year after my divorce and It was a disaster.