Las Vegas Shooting Mass-Murder and Concert targeting

[ChristopherColumbus]

Its à brutal logic for the people who profits from it
.....
At my time in university a debate on the concept of freedom... and security.
......
Interesting to see that people through the gun right.. see freedom and security in the same phrase... yet reality has always shown they clash.

Yes, there are two logics clashing... I think this is where the term 'culture war' derives from.

On the Right, the logic of Freedom is juxtaposed to the logic of Order [some constraint on Freedom] on the Left.

Because they tend to operate with their own logic they appear as 'incommensurable'... you just get an endless futile and increasingly shrill debate without the possibility of a real dialogue which could achieve a compromise and some moderate middle ground.

I think this process also goes to show the limitations of a pure democracy - rationality is lost, with it just becoming a numbers game... and which numbers can shout the loudest. Nothing shouts louder than a gun.

Say goodbye to freedom America because that only comes with rationality. When reason dies, you will only have Power to keep the order. And forget 1984, Power is more inventive than that... it will no doubt disguise itself as freedom.

 

[Von]

Yes, there are two logics clashing... I think this is where the term 'culture war' derives from.

On the Right, the logic of Freedom is juxtaposed to the logic of Order [some constraint on Freedom] on the Left.

Because they tend to operate with their own logic they appear as 'incommensurable'... you just get an endless futile and increasingly shrill debate without the possibility of a real dialogue which could achieve a compromise and some moderate middle ground.

I think this process also goes to show the limitations of a pure democracy - rationality is lost, with it just becoming a numbers game... and which numbers can shout the loudest. Nothing shouts louder than a gun.

Say goodbye to freedom America because that only comes with rationality. When reason dies, you will only have Power to keep the order. And forget 1984, Power is more inventive than that... it will no doubt disguise itself as freedom.

Exactly... aren't the one asking for the freedom of ownership of a gun... always saying ''to protect ourself, to defend our freedom from the governement, to respect my rights etc...''.... They want guns to PROTECT THEMSELVES.... they want Security disguised as Freedom

Guns are an objects... but objects can become symbols (like the Cross of Jesus, The Crescent of Islam, the American flag, etc...)

So what they actually asking is POWER to defend themselves and their lives, dreams, hope, fear.... they asking for a POWER to SECURE them.... usually, people find that kind of power through a Dictator, a Strong Leader etc.. (dictator in the roman sense)

They actually reject the notions of institutions and democracy... because its flawed and they can't deal with that.

The Hobbes leviathan body is highly attractive, right now. I'll add Jean-Jacques Rousseau would probably say we are still in chains and think its time for a ''philosopher king dynasty''

Democracy is all about having institutions take care of you, no matter the leadership... but when it crumbles or the legitimacy is gone and the faith in the institution dies (they can't provide)... only Dictatorship with a strong leader can take the place and keep it local discourse emerge. I believe that's why the Founding Father added the Electoral College in the constitution... The Electoral College is highly UNDEMOCRACTIC cause you put the popular vote in the hands of a few ''elite (especially back in the days)'' to prevent ''misuse of democracy''.... Trump, Bush etc... all got in due to the Electoral College because they lost the popular vote.... in a democracy Hillary Clinton would be President. As a republic, they put checks... but like any system... it has an expiry date. (the electoral college deciding the elections have been happening more this decade than anytime before)

Interestingly in the Journal of Democracy through a Harvard University and Melbourne University in Australia, they ''survey'' the support for democracy through the 1950 generations to now.... .USA support for democracy among the ''youth'' is around 10% when it was around 60% for the 1950.... there is a similar phenomenon in the Western World to reject democracy, especially in the youth, while you have a contrary movement in the African-MidEast-Asian countries .... Maybe the Western world is now seeking to go back to the ''kingdoms'' after experiencing 200 years of democracy and now the countries/cultures who were ruled by ''kings'' now seek to try democracy... as their middle class emerge

 

[samspade]

Does the right to bear arms by citizens include nuclear missiles and atomic bombs? Drones? Stingers? What's the line of demarcation?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

When you say "it" is a deep seated cultural and educational problem, what is the "it" you are referring to?

The breakdown of the body politic/ political culture. And ideology/ individualism is the cause of that. To really understand the way in which the metaphor of a body politic operates, one needs to go beyond Hobbes and Rousseau, and their idea of a 'social contract'. We need to go further back than revolutionary/ modern politics, and look at the classical idea as presented by Aristotle. You find there no huge gulf between the natural and the social [which is the inner contradiction and doom of all modern politics]. Rather, man is by nature a social animal.

 

[speed dawg]

Yes, but the problem is bigger than a stop gap measure such as that. It's a political problem that needs to be solved. If it isn't, you're looking at continued chaos.

No it's not. It's about protecting huge gathering places such as this one. Concerts, sporting events, etc.

 

[FairShake]

One thing I've always found ironic is some the people who say we need our guns are some of the same people who defend murderous and overly militarized police when they overreact to guns or the perception of guns. The dichotomy just doesn't compute. I do like the Libertarians who are at least consistent in their blindness.

All other First World Countries have less gun crime and a less violent government. I think the two may be mutually exclusive just like in our case.

Also I think American gun ownership is far more likely to contribute to a government-fueled Civil War than any righteous uprising of People Power.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Does the right to bear arms by citizens include nuclear missiles and atomic bombs? Drones? Stingers? What's the line of demarcation?

The right to bear arms originated from the 1689 English Bill of Rights that states that citizens of England (including colonists) have the right to have "arms for their defence suitable to their conditions". It's hard to imagine conditions where nuclear bombs, drones and stingers would be suitable as personal defensive weapons.

 

[Red Legg]

I am a proud gun owner,I carry a 9mm Sig Sauer in my pick up truck.The government can have my guns out of my cold dead hands.....and any foreigner against American gun ownership can kiss my red neck ass..

 

[Trunks]

It seems like the shooter bought the rifle legally (as a semi), and then modded it to become an automatic:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...y-passed-federally-mandated-background-checks

 

[Von]

One thing I've always found ironic is some the people who say we need our guns are some of the same people who defend murderous and overly militarized police when they overreact to guns or the perception of guns. The dichotomy just doesn't compute. I do like the Libertarians who are at least consistent in their blindness.

All other First World Countries have less gun crime and a less violent government. I think the two may be mutually exclusive just like in our case.

Also I think American gun ownership is far more likely to contribute to a government-fueled Civil War than any righteous uprising of People Power.

True.

I mean they have the problem... let them shoot at each other until none is standing... than we send the beavers to take over.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Jump stocks are obviously going to get banned after this. They look dumb to me, anyway, and make a gun horribly inaccurate.

I was reading about silencers/suppressors here: http://www.silencerresearch.com/sound_suppressors_on_high_powered_rifles.htm

Silencers are largely irrelevant for high-powered rifles, because the bullet breaks the sound barrier, and that particular noise cannot be suppressed. Silencers are for sub-sonic bullets, which have an effective maximum range of about a hundred yards. The Vegas shooter was over a thousand yards away, 1300 I think. A muzzle flash suppressor might have helped him avoid detection longer, though.

That article mentioned that the pointed bullets in high-powered rifles have a tendency to poke holes through flesh while doing minimal damage, especially compared to flat-nosed bullets, like wad-cutters, a popular hand gun round. I think that had a lot to do with why there were ten times as many wounded as dead.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

If you see this girl/crisis actor run like hell.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Uh oh...

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/

Stephen Paddock, who killed at least 58 people and wounded hundreds more in Las Vegas on Sunday with high-powered rifles, was prescribed an anti-anxiety drug in June that can lead to aggressive behavior, the Las Vegas Review-Journal has learned.

I don't suppose anybody will want to regulate prescription drugs...

 

[speed dawg]

Uh oh...

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/

Stephen Paddock, who killed at least 58 people and wounded hundreds more in Las Vegas on Sunday with high-powered rifles, was prescribed an anti-anxiety drug in June that can lead to aggressive behavior, the Las Vegas Review-Journal has learned.

I don't suppose anybody will want to regulate prescription drugs...

Taiyuu has won the internet again.

 

[Bible_Belt]

He had a Valium prescription, which has been around a long time. Suicide is listed as a side effect. Mass murder is not, but maybe it will be in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazepam
one of the most frequently prescribed medications in the world since its launch in 1963. In the United States it was the highest selling medication between 1968 and 1982, selling more than two billion tablets in 1978 alone.

 

[Von]

Uh oh...

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/

Stephen Paddock, who killed at least 58 people and wounded hundreds more in Las Vegas on Sunday with high-powered rifles, was prescribed an anti-anxiety drug in June that can lead to aggressive behavior, the Las Vegas Review-Journal has learned.

I don't suppose anybody will want to regulate prescription drugs...

Aren't they already regulated? I can't take more than 1 month dosage at a time for ''safety reasons''

So you saying he drug lead him to be aggressive? Alright....

Than he decided to bring his anger on innocents? Alright

He decided to take a weapon to inflict pain? Alright

Now if he had a knife or a pistol instead of assault rifles.... would he have done more damage ? Doubtful

If he didn't have committed suicide likely the death count would have been in the 100's fast including the police officer who went up 32 floor to stop him...

The problem with guns... especially assault rifle is they are MADE to INCREASE your HARMING potential and than you have anyone who's mentally ill and taking drugs getting them to have some fun and shoot people

Heck, Kurt Cobain was killed by Courtney Love during a drug trip, I know people who were high on cocaine and have constantly been dreaming about killing their friend... a friend who died during the drug trip, I know people who takes ''anti-anxiety'' and on the label its written ''if you stop your chance of committing suicide increase by 25%'' .

Drugs is bad and its always about the quantity... but it remains a personal think, like alcohol, like smoking etc...

Guns have a tendancy to involve other people and make things easier.... suicide by guns is still number 1 over all suicide

In this debate in the USA, Guns, drugs, alcohol, are all in the same boat

I wonder if you guys lived something like this... will keep the same opinion?

I guess money is more important than freedom or you need a almighty protector

''The surface of American society is covered with a layer of democratic paint, but from time to time one can see the old aristocratic colours breaking through'' - Alexis Tocqueville on Democracy in America - 1840

All Long Live Georges Calin sketch on the NRA (Shooting Americans is an American dream):

Because people outside of the situation: who are at peace, who are feeling safe, who have freedom... are all wondering... WTF is going on

Best comedian gun control talk and probably resume everyone who's looking at that situation:

PS: you have to watch it... he's actually pro-gun and gives facts

 

[Von]

And again, you fail to cite the alternative.....Where the most lethal mass murderer of all (Government) is the only one to have access to guns.

Any thought on thoa guys links to Isis? Isis seems to be doubling down that he belongs to them.

You right the number 1 killer is the governement, the USA governement... it killed alot of foreigners who are mad under the name of ''freedom for ressources (1954)'' and provide freedom and gun right to its USA cittizens.

When the last time the USA governement stormed your cities with tanks to arrest and detain everyone? Didn't happen since Vietnam

So I am not missing your point.... you have no points

Look all the other gouvernement, they might have control of the army... but all the other countries don't have your issues, don't have your crime rate, nor the violence, some even have gun-culture... It's not a governement thing... its a cultural point.

Like Columbus and I were chatting about. Check, the Australian comedian video.... like he said: Society is always talking to the lowest dominator... the 1% who ruined it all for us... The Gun, The alcoholic driving, the drug taking because some crazy decided to run over innocents

 

[samspade]

The right to bear arms originated from the 1689 English Bill of Rights that states that citizens of England (including colonists) have the right to have "arms for their defence suitable to their conditions". It's hard to imagine conditions where nuclear bombs, drones and stingers would be suitable as personal defensive weapons.

Well, governments have those items. What if you need to defend yourself against tyranny or terrorism? Bringing a knife to a gun fight won't help you.

 

[speed dawg]

You right the number 1 killer is the governement, the USA governement... it killed alot of foreigners who are mad under the name of ''freedom for ressources (1954)'' and provide freedom and gun right to its USA cittizens.

When the last time the USA governement stormed your cities with tanks to arrest and detain everyone? Didn't happen since Vietnam

So I am not missing your point.... you have no points

Look all the other gouvernement, they might have control of the army... but all the other countries don't have your issues, don't have your crime rate, nor the violence, some even have gun-culture... It's not a governement thing... its a cultural point.

Like Columbus and I were chatting about. Check, the Australian comedian video.... like he said: Society is always talking to the lowest dominator... the 1% who ruined it all for us... The Gun, The alcoholic driving, the drug taking because some crazy decided to run over innocents

Dude, if you were to run the numbers, look at the percentage of people killed by guns vs. anywhere else, it would damn near be insignificant. Go here and toggle it to where you see the most gun deaths per 100,000 people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

U.S. is #11 on that list. Hmm, let's go further. If you do the math, there are 112,600 gun in America per 100,000 population. Let's take Switzerland, since you seem to be fixated on them, they have 24,450 guns per 100,000 people.

U.S. has 10.54 deaths per 100,000, and 112,600.

Switzerland has 3.01 deaths per 100,000, and 24,450.

One can easily create a deaths per gun number, for the U.S. it's 0.00009. For Switzerland it's 0.0001.

11% higher in Switzerland pal. Time to hang up your agenda. The number of guns ain't the problem. It's the people with the guns.

Not to mention, mass shootings are a very small percentage of the actual gun related deaths. So if you're going to push an agenda about gun control, it really shouldn't follow the mass shootings. It's the daily shootings that happen in Chicago or similar (which REALLY are what drive the numbers sky high in America, the ghetto gang violence, contained in small areas).

 

[samspade]

And again, you fail to cite the alternative.....Where the most lethal mass murderer of all (Government) is the only one to have access to guns.

This is what I don't get. The government could flatten you and your gun collection in no time if it wanted to. It has tanks, missiles, bombs, and soldiers. Of course it would have no one to tax if it annihilated everyone so there's that...