Just learned that a friend will be divorcing his wife of 16 years

[bigjohnson]

I personally doubt it's all or even mostly about weight.


My observation of married life in a nutshell is this. Women want to be loved, are good at expressing affection and have issues with showing appropriate respect. Men want to be respected and are good at expressing their appreciation and respect but have issues with sharing themselves emotionally.

Men are constantly told to show women we love them.

Women are constantly told that men are incompetent and should be treated like overgrown children.


Discuss.

 

[Interceptor]

Rollo, that was one of THE best posts you've ever written, dude.
There is so much info in there.
LOL!

Think about when the last time was that you heard a man state what he believed a woman's responsibilities to him are. For any man, even with the best of intents, to publicly outline what he believes should be a woman's responsibility to him puts himself at risk of seeming presumptuous at best and misogynistic at worst by both sexes. But we needn't worry about a guy even attempting to truly do so because far too many men will only identify themselves with a woman's qualifications, rather than state what they'd really like a woman's responsibilities to him to be.
And here we have the foundation of yet another social contrivance that's latent purpose is to (still) maintan a woman's dominance in mating selectivity. The more loose, the more ambiguous, the more undefinable by men, a woman's expectations in commitment are the more options she has and the more manueverability she enjoys in re-interpreting them. How dare a man ever presume to define what HER duties, HER accountability and HER responsibility to him would be? Her vagina is the crown jewel of the relationship, and since his continued, committed, sexuality is dependent upon it's continued appreciation, how dare he disrespect it by presuming to define her responsibilities to him?
This then is the contrivance; so long as she can maintain and redefine what her "duties" to him are, while simultaneously holding him to a strict doctrine of responsibility, she controls the frame. Add to this a global, societal reinforcement; a culture wherein both sexes encourage this role ambiguity, the more control women enjoy. Why would there be a need for such control? To ensure their long term security. Women fundamentally know that men seek sexual variety and this is a constant threat to their security. So in order to preserve it, socio-psychological schema have to be implimented and men had to be made to internalize and believe them autonomously from women.

Props, RT.

 

[Interceptor]

When you enter into a relationship or marriage there are unspoken "deals" or "contracts" that are made. One is how you take care of yourself - your exercise habits, grooming, smoking, drinking, and yes, your weight. It feels like a betrayal when a spouse breaks that unspoken contract. It feels like you got suckered, lied to.

If your spouse receives a physical imperfection through no fault of their own (a fire, masectomy, etc,) that is one thing. But the decision to eat and get fatter and fatter and fatter, knowing it will create problems of being able to be intimate with the most important person in your life is just wrong - whether you are a husband or a wife. This marriage has very real problems that are much bigger than 100 pounds of fat.

PS I do feel that oneself is the most important person in one's life. But one' SELF cannot be realized without the other. Due consideration, appreciation, affection, and attention is needed. Healthy romantic love is shared, not just taken......
But one must be FULL of One SELF in order to Give.

One must be secure in one's own Self, in order to give in a healthy manner.

True, healthy relationships succeed when both partners are FULL, and want to share this with the other.
True romantic love is about sharing, about Giving.


xoxoLL

 

[mrRuckus]

My dad left my mom when i was still youngish. I do not care. I didn't care then. What did it have to do with me? They told me while i was doing algebra homework in 7th grade. I just said ok and kept doing algebra. If anything i was confused why they were making a big deal out of it.

I still see both my parents. It made no difference at all they were not living in the same place other than i wasn't nagged as often to go to bed as if i can't judge my own tiredness level.

One time i brought it up when i was in college when i was having girl issues. He said he just didn't love her anymore. He didn't give any reasoning. It doesn't matter. He was still a father to me, my mom is still bitter about it, and he never says anything bad about her.

The nuclear family is a damn myth. It's never existed in high numbers in the population. There was a Penn and Teller's Bullsh1t episode about it even.

What kind of lesson is it to kids to see 2 parents being unloving to each other while growing up? Another round of sons stuck being slaves to women who don't have to pull their own end of the deal? I grew up seeing my dad with his current wife even though i don't even like her. They are more loving the whole time than i ever saw my own parents when they were together.

I think what traumatizes kids during a divorce is watching the parents act like children. Don't stoop to those levels and things can be cool.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

So then is the answer for men to maintain an attitude of 'as soon as I don't get what I want in the bedroom, I can and will go find it elsewhere with little hesitation?'

Yes and No, but more importantly the answer is to be aware of these contrivances and how they're used by women and unconsciously internalized by men and yourself.

See LOVELY's post. Her unspoken contract is to-the-letter textbook female covert communication. The sub-communication is "please stay in shape so I'll still want to ƒuck you for a long time." That's the answer you're looking for. How do you convey the message that you are in fact still desirable by other women and keep the her competitive anxiety at least somewhat present? STAY IN SHAPE!

The social proof that comes from other women wanting what your wife/LTR is turning down is a very powerful tool in the hands of a DJ who knows how to use it.

 

[bigjohnson]

See LOVELY's post. Her unspoken contract is to-the-letter textbook female covert communication. The sub-communication is "please stay in shape so I'll still want to ƒuck you for a long time."

Taken in context of the thread it looked like she was saying "this wife should have taken care of herself", but maybe I missed something I suppose.

 

[ketostix]

Well any woman that would gain a 100 pounds is not thinking about the kids. Because what dad would want to stay with a woman who let herself go like that. It is a woman's job to keep the man attracted and wanting to stay with her and the kids as a group.

 

[LovelyLady]

PS I do feel that oneself is the most important person in one's life. But one' SELF cannot be realized without the other. Due consideration, appreciation, affection, and attention is needed. Healthy romantic love is shared, not just taken......
But one must be FULL of One SELF in order to Give.

One must be secure in one's own Self, in order to give in a healthy manner.

True, healthy relationships succeed when both partners are FULL, and want to share this with the other.
True romantic love is about sharing, about Giving.


xoxoLL

Well said, Interceptor. :flowers: And with the thought of self-love comes self-care. A woman who truly loves herself (and respects herself, as I believe that without respect there can be no love), she would not do that to her own body.

...Unless she somehow welcomes the consequence. Some questions worth exploring may be: How does her fat "serve" her? Why is she choosing to behave in a way that will result in not having intimate relations with her Man?

I see this as a way she physically abandoned the marriage before he physically did. It is easy to place judgement on them both - her for setting up a lose-lose scenerio, and him for being the one to actually OVERTLY do what she had already done by her weight gain.

I agree she has desexualized herself :yes: She has buried her sexual, feminine self under all that fat. What occured for her that she decided she did not want to be that sex kitten with him anymore? what is she getting from her fat that she prefers more than what she got from taking care of herself (a Dr. Phil question LOl What is her payoff? Well, those are the questions a good girlfriend would be asking her, anyway, but I digress.)

As a key role model in her family: She has set an example that it is okay to live a lifestyle that is unhealthy - that can result in diabetes, heart disease, and the loss of the attraction of her Husband the death of her marriage. Her ACTIONS are telling her children this is what a good wife and mother does - what a good woman is.

If she loves this man, would she truly want him to be with a woman for the rest of his life who he cannot feel desire for because she has chosen to poison her body with 100 pounds of toxicity? How could this be the loving thing for her - to offer up such an ill kept body for him to touch - and treat him as failed partner when he cannot feel desire for her body any longer.

Marriage is a particular agreement of loving that includes the gift of sexual exclusivity. And with that comes a responsibilty to give your mate the best of yourself. And to receive his/her best with appreciation. If your marriage partner takes every action to be certain their body is clearly the worst they can make it - where is the loving? Where is the gift to appreciate?



Thoughts on unspoken agreements... I want to share two conversations I had with two women just last week where I had them focus on this issue/phenomena of unspoken agreements:

1. This woman is 52 and is 157 pounds overweight. She has not had sex with her husband in about three years. She is angry with him because he has driven them into financial ruin that they will never get out of - ever, (except with lottery winnings, maybe LOL).

I asked her how she goes about communicating with him about how angry she is with what has happened re: the debt. She said "I can't really say anything because then he will get on me about my weight".

She doesn't want to be sexual with him, she is angry with him about the debt. The weight "punishes" him with no sex, his financial irresponsibility punishes her for the fat and lack of sex. Their first unspoken agreement when they met/married was he was a responsible business owner - modest means - but responsible. She was a size 6 and cuter than a button.

Who abandonded the unspoken agreement first? She doesn't remember.... babies came, debts built up that were not discussed - but the unspoken agreement CHANGED and now it is: She will continue to let him debt, and he will continue to let her be/and get fatter.

2. 49 yr old good friend of mine. She met her husband when she was 20. She was a size 4, impeccably groomed, jogged and took care of herself, non-smoker. He was 22, lifted weights, jogged, non-smoker. Things were like electricity between them.

Now, two kids later, both grown and on their own, and she is seriously considering leaving him. He is morbidly obese and smokes. She is still a size 4 impeccably groomed, still jogs, smoke-free. She is so angry. Her exact words were: "I am so angry with him, I kept up my end of the deal and he didn't. I feel like he abandonded us."

What I have learned about unspoken agreements is that partners often feel paralyzed about confronting their spouses when they feel the agreements are broken. The underlying feelings of being betrayed, misled, disrespected, hurt and even somehow that the partner breaking the agreement is abandoning the relationship - that is pretty heavy stuff.

(Maybe a good topic for a Sunday SS chat would be: Is romantic love truly unconditional: should it be?)

 

[Interceptor]

Whoah, LL.
Very deep, somewhat saddening though...

This subject is really like opening a sort of Pandora's Box,
There are so many things attached to them.

thanks for sharing, Lovely.


Do those women intend to do something about thier relationships?

 

[LovelyLady]

I find it very sad as well. Heartbreaking, truly.

Right now they are simply facing the truth of things as they are. They have not made any decisions on actions yet - but I have reminded them that not to decide is also a decision.

Not to hijack the OP's story, though... just that this breaking of unspoken agreements damages marriages everyday. And it is important to be mindful of the spoken - and unspoken "contracts" we make in all our relationships, IMHO.

 

[##17]

Marriage is a particular agreement of loving that includes the gift of sexual exclusivity. And with that comes a responsibilty to give your mate the best of yourself. And to receive his/her best with appreciation. If your marriage partner takes every action to be certain their body is clearly the worst they can make it - where is the loving? Where is the gift to appreciate?

Totally agree. This is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better than I did.

Marriage is a serious, serious, serious commitment (I think you said this as well somewhere else). You make a commitment to be with someone for better or worse. Just as much as blame falls on the wife for not keeping herself up, I do also feel that the husband in the original story had an obligation to do more than he did to get his wife to take better care of herself.

 

[ketostix]

I find it very sad as well. Heartbreaking, truly.

Right now they are simply facing the truth of things as they are. They have not made any decisions on actions yet - but I have reminded them that not to decide is also a decision.

Not to hijack the OP's story, though... just that this breaking of unspoken agreements damages marriages everyday. And it is important to be mindful of the spoken - and unspoken "contracts" we make in all our relationships, IMHO.

I agree with your posts in this thread, big shock.

I know it's been said before but I think it's telling that as soon as their significant other leaves them I bet you they get slim again real quick.

 

[##17]

100% agree. intention is key. as well as effort.

my concern, and hence my view, is that what seems to have sparked this was not his wife's weight. what seems to have sparked this was him getting in to better shape (increasing his value) and hot women suddenly wanting to bang him.

based on the original post, this is as simple as he now views himself as 'too good' for her.

its supply and demand. he increased his value, hence increasing his demand in the market and he's thinking 'why should i settle for roast beef when i could be eating steak."

and thats selfish and shallow. its absolutely justified if this were a situation where he was dating, LTR, or married without kids.

but this guys takign a shotgun to the head of his family all so he can get some fresh p*ssy.

if every man (or woman) thought this way 100% of marriages would end in divorce.

but i agree with you, if someone isn't contributing to the marriage and is taking it for granted, and refuses to change that attitude, then divorce is a legit action to take.

but without more details from the original poster, that doesnt seem to be the case here.

I agree.

 

[LovelyLady]

I agree with your posts in this thread, big shock.

:crackup: :cheer: :crackup:

 

[LovelyLady]

WJH, thank you, what a sweet thing for you to say .

The next time my son gives me grief about doing his chores, I will be able to say "Hey, you can't argue with ME - besides the fact that I gave you life (Always said with great drama LOL) - I have a Fan Club!!!!" :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[synergy1]

Not to hijack the OP's story, though... just that this breaking of unspoken agreements damages marriages everyday. And it is important to be mindful of the spoken - and unspoken "contracts" we make in all our relationships, IMHO.

I would like to think of myself as someone who could hold up their end of the agreement regarding healthiness for life. I really have too considering my family history. I have obviously never been married, and one of the fears I have is exactly the issues discussed on this thread. First, someone who can not respect themselves and care for themselves and keep themselves at a healthy weight can not possibly have the capacity to care for others. Is it a coincidence we see overweight parents with their over weight kids? It is a huge disservice to instill those habits into children.

My question to anyone else qualified to answer is this; are there any early warning signs of this in a mate? It is impossible to gaze into a crystal ball with the future, but clearly there have to be indicators in a women that lean towards mid life complacency/ apathy?

 

[aliasguy]

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##17 wrote:

"Marriage is a serious, serious, serious commitment "


Well, it USED to be, and I wish it still was, but in reality, it ISN'T, anymore.

EXCEPT when it comes to finances and the kids.

Misbehavior in marriage is RARELY considered in a divorce. (Unless the GUY is f*cking up in some way.) Adultery is laughed off -- "doesn't matter." Drug use rarely matters - -in the WIFE, that is.

And even AFTER the divorce, most misbehavior isn't dealt with (unless the guy isn't paying up as ordered.) Keeping the kids from seeing their father, having overnighters with the boyfriend while the kids are there (or, worse, just shacking up in violation of the decree) JUST DON'T GET PUNISHED, except very rarely. But let a guy miss a couple of support payments, and WATCH OUT.

The TRUE wellbeing of the kids isn't even what all this is about. It's about moving money around. Did you know that the state gets federal dollars in proportion to the amount of child support money that moves through the system? More incentive to rape the guy. It sucks, and it's hypocritical, and it's just plain WRONG.


In today's society, marriage is a joke. I used to agree with ##17, but not anymore.




It's easier to get out of a marriage than it is to get out of a cellphone contract, or a contract to buy a house.


When society in general, and the courts in particular (and, I'm afraid, most PEOPLE) have such little respect for the institution, it can no longer be seen as "real."

It is, effectively, DEAD.


Bummer, but true.






So, she's fat. He wants to nail some hotties. People get divorced every day over less. Is this "right"? I don't think so, but what I think doesn't matter. A collective decision has been made. And "marriage" is dead.

I dunno why the homosexual community even wants in on this farce (other than the financial incentives.)



Thanks for tolerating this rant.

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[Interceptor]

WJH, thank you, what a sweet thing for you to say .

The next time my son gives me grief about doing his chores, I will be able to say "Hey, you can't argue with ME - besides the fact that I gave you life (Always said with great drama LOL) - I have a Fan Club!!!!" :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

:crackup:
xoxoLL




(runs warm water for a bubble bath..............-POP!-opens a bottle of Champagne........ opens a box of chocolates....)

 

[Interceptor]

The only way you can assess a potential mate is by asking questions, and observing their behavior.

Women feel they have a lot to lose. Thus, the perspective of preseving their security.

They want to protect that which they feel is valueable.

So do you.

I will say this...

People who do not Self Examine, in thatthey DO NOT "observe" themselves, and make changesin incorrect behavior are usually the ones who will not have Personal Boundaries set up. As a result, or lack of these boundaries, they will have a hrder time adapting to ever changing circumstances.

Here's something else everyine has to consider.


Do you all believe we continue to grow?

I believe we do.

In some way or another, slowly or quickly, you will change....hopefull you will grow as a person.

What do people often complain about in marriages that fail?

"We GREW apart."

One person did continue to grow emotionally, spiritually, change physically hopefully for the better, perhaps more satisfaction career wise, and the OTHER DID NOT.

They change. The relationship dynamic CHANGES.

One moves on, the other stays behind.

One has continued growing, the other did not.
Who are the people who continue to grow as human beings? To self realize?

The ones who Self Examine.
The ones who Observe ThemSELVES.
And take ACTION in correcting incorrect, unhealthy behavior, thoughts, and actions.

Imagine if BOTH partners continued to GROW? And took steps to connect intimately WHILE THEY ARRE GROWING??

So now you know..
They key in trying to forecast the experinece with a potential partner for marriage essentially is their ability or their inherent desire to self examine, and observe themselves, and change when necessary.

If she does not do this, you are in effect gambling and playing against the house.

YOU and SHE must individually have:

STRONG Personal Boundaries .

an IDENTITY .

PREFERENCES, OPINIONS, GOALS. and IDEAS .

Abiltiy to adapt to inevitable CHANGE

Positive Outlook on LIFE

 

[aliasguy]

The only way you can assess a potential mate is by asking questions, and observing their behavior.

Women feel they have a lot to lose. Thus, the perspective of preseving their security.

They want to protect that which they feel is valueable.

So do you.

I will say this...

People who do not Self Examine, in thatthey DO NOT "observe" themselves, and make changesin incorrect behavior are usually the ones who will not have Personal Boundaries set up. As a result, or lack of these boundaries, they will have a hrder time adapting to ever changing circumstances.

Here's something else everyine has to consider.


Do you all believe we continue to grow?

I believe we do.

In some way or another, slowly or quickly, you will change....hopefull you will grow as a person.

What do people often complain about in marriages that fail?

"We GREW apart."

One person did continue to grow emotionally, spiritually, change physically hopefully for the better, perhaps more satisfaction career wise, and the OTHER DID NOT.

They change. The relationship dynamic CHANGES.

One moves on, the other stays behind.

One has continued growing, the other did not.
Who are the people who continue to grow as human beings? To self realize?

The ones who Self Examine.
The ones who Observe ThemSELVES.
And take ACTION in correcting incorrect, unhealthy behavior, thoughts, and actions.

Imagine if BOTH partners continued to GROW? And took steps to connect intimately WHILE THEY ARRE GROWING??

So now you know..
They key in trying to forecast the experinece with a potential partner for marriage essentially is their ability or their inherent desire to self examine, and observe themselves, and change when necessary.

If she does not do this, you are in effect gambling and playing against the house.

YOU and SHE must individually have:

STRONG Personal Boundaries .

an IDENTITY .

PREFERENCES, OPINIONS, GOALS. and IDEAS .

Abiltiy to adapt to inevitable CHANGE

Positive Outlook on LIFE

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That SOUNDS wonderful, Interceptor.

It really does. I like what you've written here, and, honestly, I think all men should take it to heart. And use it. And better THEMSELVES.


But when is the last time you've HONESTLY seen a woman "SELF-OBSERVE," "TAKE ACTION," and "GROW"?



Clearly some do. We've seen women, even on this site, ACCEPT a "fact" about themselves, or women in general. But isn't it the exception that proves the rule?


"We grew apart" is simply a B.S. excuse women use. Maybe men do it sometimes, too. But how often do you hear a guy use this line in a breakup?




Yeah, women want to protect what they feel is "valuable." True. And, what is valuable to a woman? A guy who will protect, be faithful to, and provide for her. (And, in a lot of cases, dominate her.) But, usually, it's all on her OWN terms. He must be...... (whatever her "criteria" are this week.)


It is pissing in the wind to expect the VAST majority of women to "self examine," "observe themselves" or "change." (Well, they'll "change," all right, but not in ways you might wish.)


This attitude would be productive and wonderful if women would adopt it, and implement it in their lives, and in their relationships. Men, too.

Ever really SEEN a woman act this way?


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