Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

How to socialize with women if you have a weak frame?

MtmVaott

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That's all great.

But you might want to tackle your self esteem, self validation issues first.

First be okay just by being by yourself and comfortable in your own skin.

As for making friends and building a social circle, there's plenty of ways to do this, you can research the stories on this site. There's meet up app and you can go out volunteer somewhere, take an art class at a college somewhere, you can go on Instagram and go to the 'Places' section and search the places you like to visit and there might be a local dude you can hit up and make friends with.

What you want to do is build a daily routine around your hobbies/ interests and venture out to some places you can chill where you can meet new people afterwards. When you do this, it gives off a more spontaneous and natural vibe. So if you like mma or basketball, go to a coffee shop or the park afterwards, after each sessions to maybe meet some new people. The people can sense your confidence and that you did something with your time and that you have a life.

Best of luck.
This post has been a guideline for me what to address first, thank you.
I stalled the whole socializing thing, even with men, as you and @eli77 implied.

As self-esteem is a bunch of topics, I stumbled over
- creating own boundaries and asserting them in a self-assured way
- (self-) validating own thoughts, emotions and actions (Am I right to feel/think/act the way I do? Yes, absolutely! Yes, makes sense because of xyz, but ...)

I am making this thread my "sosuave progress diary", at least until I have the "luxury" to learn how to deal with women.
Feel free to make suggestions, critizism or to ask questions yourself.
 

Kotaix

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I'm not sure what you mean with "confidence". Self-trust needs to be proven by yourself by plan-action-reward patterns and by avoiding to make up excuses.
The feeling of confidence, i.e. the feeling of an anticipated action probably having a positive outcome, is the other meaning of confidence. Do you have a tip on this one?
I don't know if you've ever played an instrument to the point that you're good at it, but one of the things that you discover when you really get good is that playing well isn't about trying really hard, it's about letting go and letting the music happen. If you try to play well, you'll just stumble all over yourself, overthink it, and the music will suck.

Plan/action/reward isn't a bad thing, but for most people that usually implies that you'll be confident/happy/successful at some future state in time. This kind of thinking precludes you from being confident now because your confidence is tied to the reward. You're living for an imagined future state which doesn't exist and almost certainly never will.

Confidence is not "I'm awesome and I know it". Confidence is "I'm doing the best I can with what I have, and I'm not afraid to fail".

Live now and enjoy yourself now.
 

MtmVaott

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I have one tip. Remember: just the tip isn't sinful.
I see. How would you make a new, stronger frame?
I already came up with the idea to write down lists of boundaries between me and myself, me and others (male men and default (both men and women)), and me and (potential) partners.
 

BackInTheGame78

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Work on yourself first and foremost. Gotta crawl before you walk and then walk before you run. You can't run a 3K before you can crawl which is what you are trying to do.
 

MtmVaott

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Back to the original topic:
I made the thread mainly because of a flatmate of me, and a staff member at my gym.

I've realized (now) there was a tension between me and my flatmate, but I knew she had a boyfriend. A morning after a night out with her and my flatmates, I texted her what she was up for today, and she wrote she will be busy doing x if she feels OK, without mentioning to have time later that day. That was a case of non-compliance, and I've realized she was solely interested in getting validated by me, which I did right from the start for free.
I conclude for me to always:
- give my validation, attention, energy, sympathy and time to the extent that it is valuable to me
- appreciate cooperative and compliant actions with clear intentions far more than actions to make me feel externally validated (by gifts,favors,smiles,glances,...)
- appreciate actions to make me feel externally validated, which are coming from the heart and seem genuine, far more than external validation actions coming out of grandiosity

About the staff member: Already before I wrote this thread, I tried to ignore her; she saw through it and knew I was interested. She eventually proceeded to surround me while I was training, hoping I would chat her up. I ignored her, and now I am in a gym with a staff member who ignores and despises me.

I will never do the ignore thing ever again with women. It's BS.
If I would be again in a situation like this, I would actively, as soon as she positions herself near me, get the conversation started, but mention being "concentrated on myself" or "working a lot on xyz". There are 2 people needed for intimacy. If she would like to proceed regardless, and me acting congruently, she would eventually fall into a F+ or hook up arrangement with almost no investment on my part. If she changes her mind, I could walk around the gym with my head held high.
 

MtmVaott

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I received a rejection today. I wasn't and won't be able to evade the girl for the next months on a daily basis, and there was mutual high interest, chemistry,...
So I decided to take my shot at her.
Since I took the red pill, I was almost always rejected by a girl feeling disappointed or devalued by me.
Not so this time. She rejected me for whatever reason(s), but in the end, it was because she made the decision I am of no worth to her.
So obviously, as there was chemistry and attraction, I am hurt.

However, I feel alive and energized by it. It actually makes me smile.
It made me realize I am responsible to make my life fullfilled, including validating myself and respecting myself. To do that is far more beautiful than a woman can ever be. To be a bit kitchy: It's the love of my life.
 

MtmVaott

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Excellent posts about what to do with your daily life as a young man. (And Pook putting his preachings into context)
Posts with the best advice on this site how to socialize with women in general, both romantically and platonically (there is no line between the two). Also insight how applied self-validation will look like.

I'll do a post on fear of rejection myself when I see fit. I made enough connections.
 
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MtmVaott

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I lost some good realizations of my own because a thread was deleted, so I try to rewrite it here:

It's better to be confidently insecure than insecurely insecure.

I may increase the emotional intimicy to another person while pretending to be confident, and after a while the other person discovers the real me, rejects me and wouldn't have considered me a good fit in the first place. So I would get hurt more than necessary.
Applies to men and women. For friendship or dating-/sex-/relationship-wise.

What gets preached here and in the "manosphere" in general is you NEED to be confident, fearless, etc.
That's based on a warped, inhuman view what and who other people are for oneself. Rollo Tomassi has such a warped view. Women aren't value-assessing machines, they don't assess men like cattle for meat production.
People want to be with other people who are more or less on their level. It's natural, and we men do it just the same. And there is nothing wrong with it.
And:
Women who are insecure are OK being with an insecure man. Women who are inauthentic are OK being with an inauthentic "player". And authentic, self-accepting women want to be with an authentic, self-accepting man.

And of course it is better for oneself to be confident, courageous and so on. But not because one is not good enough if one is insecure or afraid. No, it's because being confident and courageous leads to more fulfilling life, relationships and partners.

Interest and attraction:

Attraction can be controlled to some extent, but it can't be forced or eliminated.

Attraction is the physical appearance, scent, and chemistry (similar personalities). That's it.
It doesn't suddenly "go away". The feeling of aversion can lower the overall interest, but not the attraction.

Interest consists of attraction and value.

Value can be controlled to some extent, but it's not advisable to do so.

The value we have for someone else or someone else has for us. How important is the other person for us?
Also referred to as caring about someone, being invested, having someone on a pedestal.
If the guy values the girl more than vice versa, simping takes place.
If the girl values the guy more than vice versa, plate spinning or fvck buddy takes place (female simping).
If both value each other the same, a healthy relationship happens.
The power dynamic can be controlled by restraining oneself from over-valueing the other person, or "pulling". That only works if the other person already values you and ignores his/her inner voice (is insecure and/or infatuated).
However, an imbalanced value-dynamic tells you it's not the right girl for you at this moment. Regardless how high the attraction is.

Discovered dealbreakers change the value. If the girl wants or wishes something and you are able to fulfill it and she discoves it, this changes your value for her as well.
So insecurity may be a dealbreaker for a confident girl. But for an insecure girl it doesn't have to be one.
Handsomeness might be something a pretty girl wants. Being inauthentic is a dealbreaker for authentic girls.
Being kind is something kind girls want. Being an a-hole is something female a-holes want.
Being carefree is something carefree girls want. And so on.

Some more realizations I've had:
Interacting with girls has no other purpose than to behave due to how you feel at the very moment. This being true to oneself is important, forcing an outcome (for example having sex with girl xyz tonight) is degrading to yourself and is ignoring yourself.
No point in pretending to be someone else, you will only prolong the discovery of dealbreakers, increase heartache, and will stall increasing interest by uncovering "fits" between you and the girl.
There is no fvcking it up. There's no point being constantly vigilant and afraid to not do something "wrong". It wasn't the right girl at the right time for the you you are right now.
Work on you nonetheless, because you may live a more fulfilling life with more loving relationships.
Value dynamic can be affected in a healthy way: NOT by caring, e.g. asking how her day was. But by really seeing her, being very present while talking to her. It's entirely different from caring, it's not an investment, it doesn't make you value her more and she doesn't feel overvalued and doesn't cause her to loose respect for you, it's something different. It's feeling seen and understood rather than just needed or wanted.
Sh1t tests don't exist. Shoutout to RangerMike for this one. They always want the genuine response, which is usually to loose interest in her and act accordingly. Be true to yourself, always.

About fear of rejection:
The point I want to make about fear of rejection is it's justified and stupid to ignore.
But first what we do to increase the fear unnecessarily:
Fantasizing: Imagining how it would be to marry and have children with the girl you talked to for 20s and know her name and profession and nothing more. That's the extreme. But even the smaller fantasies, like fantasizing how the date is going to be, are dangerous. The brain can't separate between real experiences and fantasized experiences. They are both real to the brain, they create the same emotions, you can develop feelings for a fantasy, you can build trust for a fantasy, emotional intimicy, familiarity, expectations of joy, and so on. And then you meet her in real life again and poof: To you she is this intimate fantasized person and you behave accordingly, but she actually is a total stranger. This will also lead to fear of rejection, since she is so valuable to you (because of the experienced emotions from the fantasies), but the stranger in front of you is behaving like, well, a stranger who doesn't care as much as she should be (based on your fantasies).
Forcing outcomes: The outcome isn't controllable, since there is a non-controllable person involved (the girl). So you are trying to tame the whole universe that night to achieve your goal. Being afraid of failing (= rejected or postponed by the girl) is the logical emotional consequence.
Why it's justified: The intensity of the fear is an indicator how small the feeling of love for yourself is compared to how much you may feel loved by her.
So every time you are afraid of getting rejected, you know you have more room to get to know you, which will lead to more love for yourself.
It also means the emotion of love for yourself (or your awareness of yourself and who you are) determines the quality of your romantic relationships.
Less self-love = less fullfilling romantic relationships.
 
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MtmVaott

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Edit of my above post:
I lost some good realizations of my own because a thread was deleted, so I try to rewrite it here:

It's better to be confidently insecure than insecurely insecure.

I may increase the emotional intimicy to another person while pretending to be confident, and after a while the other person discovers the real me, rejects me and wouldn't have considered me a good fit in the first place. So I would get hurt more than necessary.
Applies to men and women. For friendship or dating-/sex-/relationship-wise.

What gets preached here and in the "manosphere" in general is you NEED to be confident, fearless, etc.
That's based on a warped, inhuman view what and who other people are for oneself. Rollo Tomassi has such a warped view. Women aren't value-assessing machines, they don't assess men like cattle for meat production.
People want to be with other people who are more or less on their level. It's natural, and we men do it just the same. And there is nothing wrong with it.
And:
Women who are insecure are OK being with an insecure man. Women who are inauthentic are OK being with an inauthentic "player". And authentic, self-accepting women want to be with an authentic, self-accepting man.

And of course it is better for oneself to be confident, courageous and so on. But not because one is not good enough if one is insecure or afraid. No, it's because being confident and courageous leads to more fulfilling life, relationships and partners.

Interest and attraction:

Attraction can be controlled to some extent, but it can't be forced or eliminated.

Attraction is the physical appearance, scent, and chemistry (similar personalities). That's it.
It doesn't suddenly "go away". The feeling of aversion can lower the overall interest, but not the attraction.

Interest consists of attraction and value.

Value can be controlled to some extent, but it's not advisable to do so.

The value we have for someone else or someone else has for us. How important is the other person for us?
Also referred to as caring about someone, being invested, having someone on a pedestal.
If the guy values the girl more than vice versa, simping takes place.
If the girl values the guy more than vice versa, plate spinning or fvck buddy takes place (female simping).
If both value each other the same, a healthy relationship happens.
The power dynamic can be controlled by restraining oneself from over-valueing the other person, or "pulling". That only works if the other person already values you and ignores his/her inner voice (is insecure and/or infatuated).
However, an imbalanced value-dynamic tells you it's not the right girl for you at this moment. Regardless how high the attraction is.

Discovered dealbreakers change the value. If the girl wants or wishes something and you are able to fulfill it and she discoves it, this changes your value for her as well.
So insecurity may be a dealbreaker for a confident girl. But for an insecure girl it doesn't have to be one.
Handsomeness might be something a pretty girl wants. Being inauthentic is a dealbreaker for authentic girls.
Being kind is something kind girls want. Being an a-hole is something female a-holes want.
Being carefree is something carefree girls want. And so on.

Some more realizations I've had:
Interacting with girls has no other purpose than to behave due to how you feel at the very moment. This being true to oneself is important, forcing an outcome (for example having sex with girl xyz tonight) is degrading to yourself and is ignoring yourself.
No point in pretending to be someone else, you will only prolong the discovery of dealbreakers, increase potential heartache because you spend more than necessary time with her, and the uncovering of "fits" between you and the girl (which would increase her interest) stops.
There is no fvcking it up. There's no point being constantly vigilant and afraid to not do something "wrong". It wasn't the right girl at the right time for the you you are right now. If she rejects you because you behaved insecure, she never was the right one for you right now.
Work on you nonetheless, because you may live a more fulfilling life with more loving relationships.
Value dynamic can be affected in a healthy way: NOT by caring, e.g. asking how her day was. But by really seeing her, being very present while talking to her. It's entirely different from caring, it's not an investment, it doesn't make you value her more and she doesn't feel overvalued and doesn't cause her to loose respect for you, it's something different. It's feeling seen and understood rather than just needed or wanted. You can care little but be present even more, this is always the preferred state for the man.
Sh1t tests don't exist. Shoutout to RangerMike for this one. They always want the genuine response, which is usually to loose interest in her and act accordingly. Be true to yourself, always.

About fear of rejection:
The point I want to make about fear of rejection is it's justified and stupid to ignore.
But first what we do to increase the fear unnecessarily:
Fantasizing: Imagining how it would be to marry and have children with the girl you talked to for 20s and know her name and profession and nothing more. That's the extreme. But even the smaller fantasies, like fantasizing how the date is going to be, are dangerous. The brain can't separate between real experiences and fantasized experiences. They are both real to the brain, they create the same emotions, you can develop feelings for a fantasy, you can build trust for a fantasy, emotional intimicy, familiarity, expectations of joy, and so on. And then you meet her in real life again and poof: To you she is this intimate fantasized person and you behave accordingly, but she actually is a total stranger. This will also lead to fear of rejection, since she is so valuable to you (because of the experienced emotions from the fantasies), but the stranger in front of you is behaving like, well, a stranger who doesn't care as much as she should be (based on your fantasies).
Forcing outcomes: The outcome isn't controllable, since there is a non-controllable person involved (the girl) (and the whole universe around the two of you). So you are trying to tame the whole universe that night to achieve your goal. Being afraid of not achieving to tame everything (= rejected or postponed by the girl) is the logical emotional consequence.
Why the fear is justified: The intensity of the fear is an indicator how small the feeling of love for yourself is compared to how much you may feel loved by her.
So every time you are afraid of getting rejected, you know you have more room to get to know you, which will lead to more love for yourself.
It also means the emotion of love for yourself (or your awareness of yourself and who you are) determines the quality of your romantic relationships.
Less self-love = less fullfilling romantic relationships.
 

espanish

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I didn't bother reading your post or any of the replies because if you have a weak frame you can't. a woman who is considering mating with you will inevitably test your frame to make sure you are a man. if you have a weak frame you will crumble under the pressure and she will lose all respect for you. no respect means she can't get wet. so get a stronger frame.
 

MatureDJ

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So you're trying to find sympathy because chicks at health clubs are coming on to you? Are they fat? If not, WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? :rolleyes:
 

MtmVaott

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Learned it the hard way with the girl of my second thread.
And because of that, the best way to socialize with attracted women if you ignore yourself is to remember even the sweetest and hottest girl ever walked on earth is utterly useless and unimportant for you right now, and you are encouraged to never show your cards and to show no interest back.
 
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