How much you bench?

BackInTheGame78

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No. I think it's both flexor and extender forearm tendonitis.

Funny you say that, I just got some hydrolyzed bovine collagen type 1&3 yesterday.
Ugh, I have had that too and that is a b!tch and takes a long time to go away...couldn't do weighted pull-ups/chin-ups for quite some time...and then it would feel good and as soon as I went over some low limit, it flared up again.

Eventually just stopped doing them because it kept reoccurring no matter how long I let it rest.

Peptides or collagen itself? I read that peptides are better absorbed and utilized by the body but I am not sure if that was in comparison to regular collagen or hydrolyzed, so maybe that makes a difference in that...

How long have you been using it for?

I've been on it about 3 months and have noticed a lot less issues with my elbows even when I am doing exercises that would normally bother them like overhead tri extensions. Got arthritic changes and loose bodies in my left elbow so I have to be careful what I do but this has definitely helped.

EDIT: NVM, I just read that hydrolyzed collagen and collagen peptides are two names for the same product...basically they are synonymous with each other and used interchangeably.
 

DonJuanjr

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Ugh, I have had that too and that is a b!tch and takes a long time to go away...couldn't do weighted pull-ups/chin-ups for quite some time...and then it would feel good and as soon as I went over some low limit, it flared up again.
Yup, That's part of what flared it up again, I think... Pull-ups. I haven't done dead lifts in a long time due to it also.

I've been on it about 3 months and have noticed a lot less issues with my elbows even when I am doing exercises that would normally bother them like overhead tri extensions. Got arthritic changes and loose bodies in my left elbow so I have to be careful what I do but this has definitely helped.
That's good to know. How much are you taking? I am on day 2. I used hydrolyzed chicken collagen type 2 in the past, but that's not the proper collagen for tendon issues, it has to be 1 and 3. I think I used the chicken collagen for a preventative and not a flare up. I don't remember though.
 

BackInTheGame78

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Yup, That's part of what flared it up again, I think... Pull-ups. I haven't done dead lifts in a long time due to it also.


That's good to know. How much are you taking? I am on day 2. I used hydrolyzed chicken collagen type 2 in the past, but that's not the proper collagen for tendon issues, it has to be 1 and 3. I think I used the chicken collagen for a preventative and not a flare up. I don't remember though.
I m using Orgain Organic Collagen Peptides and take a scoop a day other than my 2 fast days every week but then take 2 scoops the day after.
 

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Quite possible. Everyone has different levels naturally of white versus red muscle fiber, and although you can alter it somewhat based on training modalities, in large part, you will always be more efficient and better at what you are naturally aligned with.
Did your squats/deadlits/weighted dips/chinups increase in proportion to your bench? I'm at the point where those comprise 90% of what I do since nothing else really does anything for me.
 

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Did your squats/deadlits/weighted dips/chinups increase in proportion to your bench? I'm at the point where those comprise 90% of what I do since nothing else really does anything for me.
All of them increased to some degree or another to a fairly high level, I am not sure how you'd measure proportions.

Squat PR was 475 lbs although for the size of my legs and how muscular they were I always felt like I should have been able to squat more.

Deadlift PR was 565 lbs, wanted to get to 600 but my back had other ideas.

Weighted Dips I believe max was a belt that held 3 plates and a 10 lb weight, so like 145 lbs.

Weighted chin-ups max was 2 plates with a 25 lb weight so like 115 lbs.

Maybe my strongest body part are my lats, I used to do one arm barbell rows with 215 lbs for reps and multiple sets.
 

FlexpertHamilton

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All of them increased to some degree or another to a fairly high level, I am not sure how you'd measure proportions.

Squat PR was 475 lbs although for the size of my legs and how muscular they were I always felt like I should have been able to squat more.

Deadlift PR was 565 lbs, wanted to get to 600 but my back had other ideas.

Weighted Dips I believe max was a belt that held 3 plates and a 10 lb weight, so like 145 lbs.

Weighted chin-ups max was 2 plates with a 25 lb weight so like 115 lbs.

Maybe my strongest body part are my lats, I used to do one arm barbell rows with 215 lbs for reps and multiple sets.
How much did you start out squatting/DLing when you were untrained?

I find it amazing how some people claim genetics arent a factor when it takes some guys years to work up to a 225lb squat and other guys can do it in 2 weeks of lifting
 

Robert28

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Most I’ve ever benched was 330 in college. Now I just do 4x15 with 50lb bum bells on flat bench and 45’s on incline.
 

sangheilios

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I personally do not flat bench press heavy with a bar at all, it's always given me issues with my shoulders and I never felt much activation in my chest. I do like to use a close grip bench press on the incline though, for some reason that never gives me issues, and I also do a lot of weighted dips. I've found these two exercises in particular work very well for me, so I do them regularly. I occasionally like to use dumbbells, I'll angle them slightly with my palms facing and it allows me to get into a really deep range of motion. You cannot use much weight doing it in this manner but it works quite well in regards to hitting the pecs.
 

sangheilios

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How much did you start out squatting/DLing when you were untrained?

I find it amazing how some people claim genetics arent a factor when it takes some guys years to work up to a 225lb squat and other guys can do it in 2 weeks of lifting
Some people have really good leverages for particular lifting movements, get some guy that is 6'3"+ and quite athletic overall and chances are you will find that he struggles with squats. With that said, you are totally right and much of the varying degree of results you will see with gym goers is almost entirely due to genetics. Gaining muscle isn't rocket science, it's literally just eating a somewhat decent diet, having a normal sleep schedule and going at least semi regularly. You don't even need to go that often either, unlike what a lot of people believe.
 

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Always did oldschool boxing(no weight lifting), and recently picked up weights, like a year ago.

My plateau seems to be the bar and 2 x 20 kg.

In the past I have injured my shoulder by ego lifting, so I am extremely careful about increasing weight
Does anyone have a tip how to gradually increase the amount of weight? I am doing pushups (60 in a row now) ,just started ohp(just bar) and I do pull ups( 25 in a row). I am just terrified that my shoulder gets hurt again.

I also do muay thai and when i gym I tend to do full body.
 

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How much did you start out squatting/DLing when you were untrained?

I find it amazing how some people claim genetics arent a factor when it takes some guys years to work up to a 225lb squat and other guys can do it in 2 weeks of lifting
Hmm...I'm not sure to be honest. I'd probably guess the first time I did it 1 plate was my limit, but I gained strength pretty rapidly.

I would seem to gain strength in bursts over a period of like a month or so where I would go up maybe 40-50 lbs on my lifts within that timeframe(10 lbs one week, 15 another, etc) and then kinda plateau for a while and then have another burst.

Did that for 4-5 years before I got to the maxes prior to the injuries hitting.

Part of it is genetics, but honestly the vast majority of people don't understand how to train properly for the results that they want, that's the biggest issue.

People that want to lift more weight that are not incorporating static holds for 5-6 weeks at least once a year are really missing the boat in terms of CNS activation, tendon/ligament growth and muscle fiber activation. I would say that was one of the biggest things that helped with that. Did it twice a year(5-6 weeks at a time) for probably 3 years and it significantly helped. Lifting more weight requires lifting more weight...even if it's only 2 inches and holding it, still super stressing the muscle, tendons, ligaments, the CNS and muscle fibers.

And that's another thing many don't get. Your muscles will not naturally grow past a certain point if you do not put enough stress on your tendons and ligaments to cause them to becomes stronger/thicker/bigger. Your body will never put itself in a position where the muscles become too strong for the connective tissue and cause damage and tears. That's why people on steroids have so many serious injuries...the tendons and ligaments haven't caught up to the muscle strength.
 
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sangheilios

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Hmm...I'm not sure to be honest. I'd probably guess the first time I did it 1 plate was my limit, but I gained strength pretty rapidly.

I would seem to gain strength in bursts over a period of like a month or so where I would go up maybe 40-50 lbs on my lifts within that timeframe(10 lbs one week, 15 another, etc) and then kinda plateau for a while and then have another burst.

Did that for 4-5 years before I got to the maxes prior to the injuries hitting.

Part of it is genetics, but honestly the vast majority of people don't understand how to train properly for the results that they want, that's the biggest issue.

People that want to lift more weight that are not incorporating static holds for 5-6 weeks at least once a year are really missing the boat in terms of CNS activation, tendon/ligament growth and muscle fiber activation. I would say that was one of the biggest things that helped with that. Did it twice a year(5-6 weeks at a time) for probably 3 years and it significantly helped. Lifting more weight requires lifting more weight...even if it's only 2 inches and holding it, still super stressing the muscle, tendons, ligaments, the CNS and muscle fibers.

And that's another thing many don't get. Your muscles will not naturally grow past a certain point if you do not put enough stress on your tendons and ligaments to cause them to becomes stronger/thicker/bigger. Your body will never put itself in a position where the muscles become too strong for the connective tissue and cause damage and tears. That's why people on steroids have so many serious injuries...the tendons and ligaments haven't caught up to the muscle strength.
Steroids also inhibit collage synthesis, meaning that your connective tissue is not able to regenerate/repair quite as readily. I don't understand the specific mechanism behind this, but it's seen in even just testosterone but many drugs that are very popular in the bodybuilding world are notoriously bad with this particular issue.

Squats and deadlifts are one of those things where many people aren't really anatomically built for, which results in utilizing very poor body mechanics. Given enough time, especially with those become pretty strong at these exercises, you will start getting issues with your lower back, hips, etc. When I was in my early 20s I used to train these exercises regularly and was able to use quite a lot of weight but my body never felt right doing them. I no longer incorporate them into my routine and use other lower body movements that do not cause me any issues.
 

EyeBRollin

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Squats and deadlifts are one of those things where many people aren't really anatomically built for, which results in utilizing very poor body mechanics. Given enough time, especially with those become pretty strong at these exercises, you will start getting issues with your lower back, hips, etc. When I was in my early 20s I used to train these exercises regularly and was able to use quite a lot of weight but my body never felt right doing them. I no longer incorporate them into my routine and use other lower body movements that do not cause me any issues.
I am the opposite. As a long-limbed ectomorph, Bench And shoulder press are much harder anatomically than squats and deadlifts. I pulled 405 lb deadlift at 160 BW long before I was strong in other lifts.
 

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How much did you start out squatting/DLing when you were untrained?

I find it amazing how some people claim genetics arent a factor when it takes some guys years to work up to a 225lb squat and other guys can do it in 2 weeks of lifting
I recently saw a video where they said to start with a still standing squad for 1 ,2 or even 3 minutes. Only then , when you can do this without a problem you should implement weights, and again slow and gradually increase the amount of weight.

I am not the guy who broke many PR's yet, so i am just thinking along.
 

sangheilios

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I am the opposite. As a long-limbed ectomorph, Bench And shoulder press are much harder anatomically than squats and deadlifts. I pulled 405 lb deadlift at 160 BW long before I was strong in other lifts.
I was referring purely to squats and deadlifts because many people struggle with being able to do them properly, mostly due to anatomical structure. I totally agree with your comments about bench pressing, I have long arms and used to get a lot of stress in my shoulders by doing this exercise.

Deadlits are one of those exercises where some people that aren't actually that strong overall can potentially use a lot of weight on. It's also not a great muscle builder, it's difficult to recover from and you can only utilize a very limited amount of volume. I've seen a lot of guys with little muscle pull 405+.

The point I'm getting at is there are so many different exercises you can choose from, literally none are necessary. I've been doing this for years and the major reason why I'm still at it is because I've found exercises that did not give me issues and stuck with them. On the flip side, exercises that would cause me problems I just avoid all together. I personally don't do squats or deadlifts, I do a lot of sled work of various types, hip thrusts, glute ham raises, back extensions and stuff like that. I also like to throw in some sprinting and plyometric type work in as well. Upper body it's mostly a lot of chin ups and dips, but I also like to throw in some rows on the chest supported machine and lately been doing some close grip incline bench press work. I'll add in some rotator cuff exercises and will cycle through some isolation work here and there. I also use the battle ropes a lot at the end of an upper body session.

The key is to just find things that work, that don't cause injuries and that you enjoy and just sticking with them. It's not rocket science.
 

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I recently saw a video where they said to start with a still standing squad for 1 ,2 or even 3 minutes. Only then , when you can do this without a problem you should implement weights, and again slow and gradually increase the amount of weight.

I am not the guy who broke many PR's yet, so i am just thinking along.
That makes no sense since you are utilizing different muscle fibers for an isometric hold than you are for heavier weights. Both are helpful in different ways, but one does not necessarily improve the other. Now if we are talking about a static hold with weight in the loaded position then that is a different thing.

A person who can squat 400 lbs might not be able to hold an isometric squat because he isn't training for endurance, he is training for strength. Just like a person who can bang out a bunch of reps on squats doesn't necessarily make themselves stronger by doing so.
 

Obee1

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I was referring purely to squats and deadlifts because many people struggle with being able to do them properly, mostly due to anatomical structure. I totally agree with your comments about bench pressing, I have long arms and used to get a lot of stress in my shoulders by doing this exercise.

Deadlits are one of those exercises where some people that aren't actually that strong overall can potentially use a lot of weight on. It's also not a great muscle builder, it's difficult to recover from and you can only utilize a very limited amount of volume. I've seen a lot of guys with little muscle pull 405+.

The point I'm getting at is there are so many different exercises you can choose from, literally none are necessary. I've been doing this for years and the major reason why I'm still at it is because I've found exercises that did not give me issues and stuck with them. On the flip side, exercises that would cause me problems I just avoid all together. I personally don't do squats or deadlifts, I do a lot of sled work of various types, hip thrusts, glute ham raises, back extensions and stuff like that. I also like to throw in some sprinting and plyometric type work in as well. Upper body it's mostly a lot of chin ups and dips, but I also like to throw in some rows on the chest supported machine and lately been doing some close grip incline bench press work. I'll add in some rotator cuff exercises and will cycle through some isolation work here and there. I also use the battle ropes a lot at the end of an upper body session.

The key is to just find things that work, that don't cause injuries and that you enjoy and just sticking with them. It's not rocket science.
I'd have to agree with most everything in your post with the exception of, "Deadlifts are one of those exercises where some people that aren't actually that strong overall can potentially use a lot of weight on. It's also not a great muscle builder." At least with a caveat. Conventional deadlift is a great muscle builder and can develop great overall strength by involving nearly every major muscle group. Competitive powerlifting however, is doing a disservice to the spirit of strength sports and ultimately the lifting community in general. The USAPL had to change the bench rules because some lifters were able to perform a ridiculous back arch with a wide grip. They were able to perform record breaking presses with the bar moving all of 4-5 inches. It's sad to say, they are going to need to address the deadlift next. Sumo deadlifts are for those lifters with strong legs in comparison to a weaker back. If the lifter has good flexibility and a long wing span, they can "lift" extraordinarily heavy weights with the bar maybe moving 5 inches. The spine is almost totally erect when they start the lift and requires very little extension to complete. I coach a couple 700 lb. sumo deadlifters. In the off season I make them train conventional. These same lifters struggle with 500 lbs. By the time in season training comes, they're more muscular and strong and as they switch back to sumo, their numbers increase.

Lastly, I think it's dangerous to not train deadlift. Training around the back or isolating the various back muscles in different lifts is no substitute. I can see NOT squatting heavy weight from a practical standpoint. Squatting with heavy weight compressing the spine is not necessarily natural. In life we push, we pull, and we bend over and pick things up. One can choose not to train the deadlift but sooner or later life may call upon you to deadlift. Be it bending over and picking up the end of a couch, dresser, piano. Maybe picking up your gutted deer to hoist into the truck. Maybe to bend over and pick up your unconscious neighbor to carry them out of the burning house. Bending over a picking things up is a natural human movement and as soon as we stop or avoid doing it, the more difficult it will be to do it later and in old age. BTW, I'm with you that they can be hard to recover from. I personally train it every 7-10 days. I only occasionally go above 90% and usually stop with 1 or 2 reps still in me. I believe this still gives a great hormonal response and keeps the grooves greased. It's also a great grip and forearm strengthener. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/01/18/grip-strength-muscles-aging/
 

sangheilios

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I'd have to agree with most everything in your post with the exception of, "Deadlifts are one of those exercises where some people that aren't actually that strong overall can potentially use a lot of weight on. It's also not a great muscle builder." At least with a caveat. Conventional deadlift is a great muscle builder and can develop great overall strength by involving nearly every major muscle group. Competitive powerlifting however, is doing a disservice to the spirit of strength sports and ultimately the lifting community in general. The USAPL had to change the bench rules because some lifters were able to perform a ridiculous back arch with a wide grip. They were able to perform record breaking presses with the bar moving all of 4-5 inches. It's sad to say, they are going to need to address the deadlift next. Sumo deadlifts are for those lifters with strong legs in comparison to a weaker back. If the lifter has good flexibility and a long wing span, they can "lift" extraordinarily heavy weights with the bar maybe moving 5 inches. The spine is almost totally erect when they start the lift and requires very little extension to complete. I coach a couple 700 lb. sumo deadlifters. In the off season I make them train conventional. These same lifters struggle with 500 lbs. By the time in season training comes, they're more muscular and strong and as they switch back to sumo, their numbers increase.

Lastly, I think it's dangerous to not train deadlift. Training around the back or isolating the various back muscles in different lifts is no substitute. I can see NOT squatting heavy weight from a practical standpoint. Squatting with heavy weight compressing the spine is not necessarily natural. In life we push, we pull, and we bend over and pick things up. One can choose not to train the deadlift but sooner or later life may call upon you to deadlift. Be it bending over and picking up the end of a couch, dresser, piano. Maybe picking up your gutted deer to hoist into the truck. Maybe to bend over and pick up your unconscious neighbor to carry them out of the burning house. Bending over a picking things up is a natural human movement and as soon as we stop or avoid doing it, the more difficult it will be to do it later and in old age. BTW, I'm with you that they can be hard to recover from. I personally train it every 7-10 days. I only occasionally go above 90% and usually stop with 1 or 2 reps still in me. I believe this still gives a great hormonal response and keeps the grooves greased. It's also a great grip and forearm strengthener. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/01/18/grip-strength-muscles-aging/
The reason why I said it's not a great muscle builder is because it is an exercise that is difficult to recover from once you are at least decently strong at it. You aren't going to be able to do a lot of volume on this exercise and because of this are limiting your growth potential. In contrast, you could blow up your hamstrings and glutes by doing a lot of volume on glute ham raises, hip thrust, sled work, etc. and actually be able to recover from it. Sleds in particular are very easy to recover from because there is no eccentric portion of the exercise.

If you are trying to compete in powerlifting or strongman you need to deadlift in some form as a part of your training. I personally don't think it is a necessary lift to train regularly if you are not in that category I mentioned. With that said, if someone really struggles to execute good form with lighter weight this is a good indicator that they have some movement issues. I just feel that for people that become quite strong at it there really isn't much benefit and there is a risk of injury. I think a huge factor in this is that it becomes a big ego lift for a lot of guys, they'll use terrible technique/form just to be able to move a lot of weight. This could be a crazy rounded spine that looks like a cat or getting it above the knees and hitching it like crazy.
 
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