How much you bench?

BackInTheGame78

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The reason why I said it's not a great muscle builder is because it is an exercise that is difficult to recover from once you are at least decently strong at it. You aren't going to be able to do a lot of volume on this exercise and because of this are limiting your growth potential. In contrast, you could blow up your hamstrings and glutes by doing a lot of volume on glute ham raises, hip thrust, sled work, etc. and actually be able to recover from it. Sleds in particular are very easy to recover from because there is no eccentric portion of the exercise.

If you are trying to compete in powerlifting or strongman you need to deadlift in some form as a part of your training. I personally don't think it is a necessary lift to train regularly if you are not in that category I mentioned. With that said, if someone really struggles to execute good form with lighter weight this is a good indicator that they have some movement issues. I just feel that for people that become quite strong at it there really isn't much benefit and there is a risk of injury. I think a huge factor in this is that it becomes a big ego lift for a lot of guys, they'll use terrible technique/form just to be able to move a lot of weight. This could be a crazy rounded spine that looks like a cat or getting it above the knees and hitching it like crazy.
I completely disagree with this. That's the entire REASON it is a great muscle builder. You don't need to do huge volumes with it.

There were weeks where one of my workouts was literally 5 sets of 12 deadlifts with a 1 minute break in between with the same weight each set(I believe roughly 70% of 1RM). It was one of the hardest workouts I did and I did some pretty crazy workouts.

That was it. That was the entire workout. 15 minutes or less and done.
 

DonJuanjr

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I m using Orgain Organic Collagen Peptides and take a scoop a day other than my 2 fast days every week but then take 2 scoops the day after.
I checked this product out. I see that it's grass pasture fed type 1 and 3 collagen. I'm assuming it's hydrolyzed bovine collagen. The amount is 20g of bovine collagen per serving. How long until you noticed positive results?
 

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I checked this product out. I see that it's grass pasture fed type 1 and 3 collagen. I'm assuming it's hydrolyzed bovine collagen. The amount is 20g of bovine collagen per serving. How long until you noticed positive results?
I'd say maybe 5-6 weeks? It kinda was more like I realized that I wasn't having the same type of elbow issues when I would do things that typically aggravated it and for the past 3-4 weeks I haven't been having any elbow issues at all, which hasn't happened for over 2 years now...
 

sangheilios

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I completely disagree with this. That's the entire REASON it is a great muscle builder. You don't need to do huge volumes with it.

There were weeks where one of my workouts was literally 5 sets of 12 deadlifts with a 1 minute break in between with the same weight each set(I believe roughly 70% of 1RM). It was one of the hardest workouts I did and I did some pretty crazy workouts.

That was it. That was the entire workout. 15 minutes or less and done.
It depends upon what your goals are. A huge issue with deadlifts, as was mentioned earlier, is that it can be a difficult exercise to recover from and therefore is not something you could do high volumes with on any sort of regular basis, which limits muscle growth. The biggest concern I'd have with a high volume workout like you mentioned would be the fatigue in the lower back, this is how injuries can occur. This would especially be the case for someone who is quite strong on this exercise. I don't doubt that you could get your heart rate up, build up a sweat, etc. but I can think of a way better way to train that doesn't involve putting me at a high risk of injury.

If your goal was to get a quick and crazy workout in, why not just do a bunch of sled work, go run up and down a hill or use the assault bike?

If your goal was to grow the glutes, hamstrings, etc., you are severely limiting yourself if you only did deadlifts, squats, etc. Sure, the deadlift works these muscles but the limiting factor is going to be your lower back and you are leaving a lot on the table by only doing this exercise for these muscles. You could easily go in and do a lot of volume with sled pulls, glute ham raises, hip thrusts and back extensions and really maximize their development. These exercises are something you can do a lot of volume on regularly and it's virtually impossible to injury yourself. Back extensions would also develop the lower back muscles as well as hitting the hamstrings and glutes.

I'm not saying people should NOT deadlift, I'm just saying that it's neither necessary nor should be a huge focus in actual training time for those who aren't competing in powerlifting or strongman competitions. You can also be decently strong at deadlifting without even doing this exercise.
 

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It depends upon what your goals are. A huge issue with deadlifts, as was mentioned earlier, is that it can be a difficult exercise to recover from and therefore is not something you could do high volumes with on any sort of regular basis, which limits muscle growth. The biggest concern I'd have with a high volume workout like you mentioned would be the fatigue in the lower back, this is how injuries can occur. This would especially be the case for someone who is quite strong on this exercise. I don't doubt that you could get your heart rate up, build up a sweat, etc. but I can think of a way better way to train that doesn't involve putting me at a high risk of injury.

If your goal was to get a quick and crazy workout in, why not just do a bunch of sled work, go run up and down a hill or use the assault bike?

If your goal was to grow the glutes, hamstrings, etc., you are severely limiting yourself if you only did deadlifts, squats, etc. Sure, the deadlift works these muscles but the limiting factor is going to be your lower back and you are leaving a lot on the table by only doing this exercise for these muscles. You could easily go in and do a lot of volume with sled pulls, glute ham raises, hip thrusts and back extensions and really maximize their development. These exercises are something you can do a lot of volume on regularly and it's virtually impossible to injury yourself. Back extensions would also develop the lower back muscles as well as hitting the hamstrings and glutes.

I'm not saying people should NOT deadlift, I'm just saying that it's neither necessary nor should be a huge focus in actual training time for those who aren't competing in powerlifting or strongman competitions. You can also be decently strong at deadlifting without even doing this exercise.
If you are recruiting your lower back you are doing the exercise all wrong to begin with and should work on proper form.
 

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If you are recruiting your lower back you are doing the exercise all wrong to begin with and should work on proper form.
The lower back is the limiting factor on this exercise, especially with a workout like you mentioned. It's not a great movement to develop the lower body, again because the lower back is what is limiting what you can do. The muscles of your lower body are not even moving through that much of a range of motion, again this limits how much development you can gain from solely deadlifts.
 

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The lower back is the limiting factor on this exercise, especially with a workout like you mentioned. It's not a great movement to develop the lower body, again because the lower back is what is limiting what you can do. The muscles of your lower body are not even moving through that much of a range of motion, again this limits how much development you can gain from solely deadlifts.
It is absolutely not, grip strength is the limiting factor.
 

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It is absolutely not, grip strength is the limiting factor.
If you use a mixed grip instead of a double overhand grip it is incredibly easy to be able to hold a lot of weight. If grip was a limiting factor, you could just wear straps on your heavier sets. Again, it depends on what your goals are. If someone wants to develop their lower body as best as they can they'd be substantially short changing themselves by focusing too much on deadlifting. If your goal was to develop a lot of power in the lower body for a sport, this is again not the best way to go about doing it. Unless you are competing in powerlifting or strongman, it's not at all a necessary exercise.
 

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If you use a mixed grip instead of a double overhand grip it is incredibly easy to be able to hold a lot of weight. If grip was a limiting factor, you could just wear straps on your heavier sets. Again, it depends on what your goals are. If someone wants to develop their lower body as best as they can they'd be substantially short changing themselves by focusing too much on deadlifting. If your goal was to develop a lot of power in the lower body for a sport, this is again not the best way to go about doing it. Unless you are competing in powerlifting or strongman, it's not at all a necessary exercise.
If you are wearing straps then it's obvious that grip strength is the limiting factor because you are using something to artificially increase your ability to pull more weight than you could without it.

If your back was the limiting factor then straps would have no use as you wouldn't be able to pull anymore weight by using them since those do nothing to increase your back strength.
 

sangheilios

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If you are wearing straps then it's obvious that grip strength is the limiting factor because you are using something to artificially increase your ability to pull more weight than you could without it.

If your back was the limiting factor then straps would have no use as you wouldn't be able to pull anymore weight by using them since those do nothing to increase your back strength.
Jesus christ, I'm giving you a variety of examples of types of individual differences that some people may be experiencing lol. Maybe someone doesn't find a mixed grip comfortable, is afraid of developing some imbalances from it or tearing a bicep. Maybe they prefer doing deadlifts with straps for any number of reasons, maybe grip is a factor. Deadlifting with a double overhand grip is going to be quite a bit lower than what you can do with a mixed grip or with straps. Here's the thing, what is your training goal? Are we trying to train the grip specifically or are we looking to develop muscle in the lower body, etc.? If you are not training for grip strength specifically, utilizing a double overhand grip would be counterproductive for someone who is using a deadlift in the hopes of developing their lower body strength and power lol.

The lower back fatigues incredibly quickly and takes a very long time to recover from. It's also going to be used quite a bit with just about any lifting exercise where you are standing up. Maybe some guy works construction or some sort of trade job where he is lifting and bending and carrying a lot throughout his work day, do you think it's a good idea to have this guy go into the gym and doing some crazy amount of volume on deadlifts?
 

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Jesus christ, I'm giving you a variety of examples of types of individual differences that some people may be experiencing lol. Maybe someone doesn't find a mixed grip comfortable, is afraid of developing some imbalances from it or tearing a bicep. Maybe they prefer doing deadlifts with straps for any number of reasons, maybe grip is a factor. Deadlifting with a double overhand grip is going to be quite a bit lower than what you can do with a mixed grip or with straps. Here's the thing, what is your training goal? Are we trying to train the grip specifically or are we looking to develop muscle in the lower body, etc.? If you are not training for grip strength specifically, utilizing a double overhand grip would be counterproductive for someone who is using a deadlift in the hopes of developing their lower body strength and power lol.

The lower back fatigues incredibly quickly and takes a very long time to recover from. It's also going to be used quite a bit with just about any lifting exercise where you are standing up. Maybe some guy works construction or some sort of trade job where he is lifting and bending and carrying a lot throughout his work day, do you think it's a good idea to have this guy go into the gym and doing some crazy amount of volume on deadlifts?
Great discussion. Both of you may be winning your own argument as it seems both of you are trying to make different points. Of course I'm pro deadlift as I've been training it for 40 years and have trained performance based athletes with deadlifts for over 20 years. If you have a moment give this article a read. I have met Flaherty at a conference and spoken to him on the phone. He doesn't implement anything that he can't measure the results of. I think there is enough in this article to both prove and disprove your arguments Sangheilios. Like why they use the hex bar supports your risk argument. But that its only for powerlifters and strongmen isn't supported by the results Ryan has produced. That is unless you say hex bar and straight have zero correlation.

 
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BackInTheGame78

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Jesus christ, I'm giving you a variety of examples of types of individual differences that some people may be experiencing lol. Maybe someone doesn't find a mixed grip comfortable, is afraid of developing some imbalances from it or tearing a bicep. Maybe they prefer doing deadlifts with straps for any number of reasons, maybe grip is a factor. Deadlifting with a double overhand grip is going to be quite a bit lower than what you can do with a mixed grip or with straps. Here's the thing, what is your training goal? Are we trying to train the grip specifically or are we looking to develop muscle in the lower body, etc.? If you are not training for grip strength specifically, utilizing a double overhand grip would be counterproductive for someone who is using a deadlift in the hopes of developing their lower body strength and power lol.

The lower back fatigues incredibly quickly and takes a very long time to recover from. It's also going to be used quite a bit with just about any lifting exercise where you are standing up. Maybe some guy works construction or some sort of trade job where he is lifting and bending and carrying a lot throughout his work day, do you think it's a good idea to have this guy go into the gym and doing some crazy amount of volume on deadlifts?
What is your obsession with "crazy volume"? You don't NEED crazy volume on deadlifts for them to be effective. Very often I did 5x5's or 6x4's. If I was working up to a PR attempt it might be something like 6-4-3-1-1-1. What qualifies as crazy volume? If I was on a deload week it was higher reps but the weight was easy and not really challenging from that perspective.

I used to do that once a week on back days, not leg days because I didn't want to have two exhaustive movements for lower body on the same day.

Deadlifts give you thickness through your shoulders and back, something most people desperately need. All I need to do to see who is a joker at the gym is to look at side profiles of them. That never lies.
 
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sangheilios

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Great discussion. Both of you may be winning your own argument as it seems both of you are trying to make different points. Of course I'm pro deadlift as I've been training it for 40 years and have trained performance based athletes with deadlifts for over 20 years. If you have a moment give this article a read. I have met Flaherty at a conference and spoken to him on the phone. He doesn't implement anything that he can't measure the results of. I think there is enough in this article to both prove and disprove your arguments Sangheilios. Like why they use the hex bar supports your risk argument. But that its only for powerlifters and strongmen isn't supported by the results Ryan has produced. That is unless you say hex bar and straight have zero correlation.

I totally agree that strength, or at least pursuing it, is incredibly important for athletes, general fitness, etc. Just about anyone today that knows anything is aware that you should be following a well rounded lifting routine if you are an athlete. It's actually kind of comical to see that some believe it doesn't make a difference, though I'm disregarding a typical bro split you see at an average gym and something that is more athletic/full body in nature. Strength obviously isn't the only factor, you also need to have a good degree of mobility/flexibility, conditioning, etc.

Going back to deadlifts and that article specifically. The trap bar deadlift is definitely much safer on the lower back compared to a conventional deadlift, as it has the weight centered with the body instead of in front. I definitely agree with this part and I do agree with the idea that if your strength to weight ratio is improved you will find that it may help with your general athleticism. With that said, it's not entirely that black and white and you need to look at it from more of an individual perspective. I guarantee you that Usain Bolt, the best Sprinter in the world, was/is not all that strong at this particular movement. On the flip side, I guarantee you that there are people who are incredibly strong at this movement and aren't all that fast. I think the take home, from my perspective as I've seen it, is an athlete should be focusing on improving within their parameters and not comparing their lifting numbers to someone else. Some people have specific body types/structures that are advantageous or disadvantageous for certain lifts/movements. Look at the guys you see in the olympic weightlifting world, you'll see that they often have quite short femurs relative to their bodies. These people are literally built to squat lol. In contrast, imagine taking someone with long legs relative to their frame, they suck at squatting. There's also a point of diminishing returns, chasing another 10% on a certain lift is not going to necessarily correlate to some magical increase in your 40 time, etc. At a certain point, you have to start heavily focusing on training for that in order to see noticeable improvements, which would detract from other elements in your routine.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about with that. I was doing a lot of hill sprints and sprints on a track, 2-3x per week, and decided to try out running a mile afterwards to see how that would go, at first it was hard to do it in 7 minutes after that workout. I decided to stick with that and ran a mile after my sprint work 3 days per week, in 2 weeks I was down to a little over 6 minutes. Now, if I had decided to really try to focus on that goal, say hit a 5 minute mile, I'd have to start doing a lot of longer runs. This would have detracted from my other training.


Personal anecdotal story. Years ago I was doing lower body work with stuff like glute ham raises, hip thrusts, lunges, sleds, hill sprints, etc. I tried doing a deadlift and was able to pull 405 with a mixed grip conventional style, it was heavy but not a complete grinder. I decided to do deadlifts once per week and within 2 months I was able to pull 405 for 10 reps and 445 for 5 reps. My bodyweight more or less stayed the same, so I didn't gain much muscle mass, if any, but by doing this lift regularly I was able to make huge improvements in my numbers. However, I found that I didn't like the way it made my body feel, I always felt like my lower back was tight and that my hips/glutes didn't fire like they usually did......so I just decided to not continue doing them. I still had a solid base without doing this exercise at all, so it's not necessary to do them regularly. I also don't like trap bar deadlifts because they'd irritate my knees, just never felt natural to me.

What I'm getting at is there are a large variety of exercises that can work quite well and that nothing is really necessary. Again, I feel deadlifts are a bit overrated and that there are better alternatives for many people. If I was a sprinter, the best thing you could incorporate is sled work of various types, hands down the best lower body exercise there is in my honest opinion. The thing is, there is no reason why you have to just stick to one thing. If someone likes to deadlift and doesn't have issues with them then go for it, I personally just don't believe people should feel they are 100% necessary.
 
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sangheilios

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What is your obsession with "crazy volume"? You don't NEED crazy volume on deadlifts for them to be effective. Very often I did 5x5's or 6x4's. If I was working up to a PR attempt it might be something like 6-4-3-1-1-1. What qualifies as crazy volume? If I was on a deload week it was higher reps but the weight was easy and not really challenging from that perspective.

I used to do that once a week on back days, not leg days because I didn't want to have two exhaustive movements for lower body on the same day.

Deadlifts give you thickness through your shoulders and back, something most people desperately need. All I need to do to see who is a joker at the gym is to look at side profiles of them. That never lies.
That's a lot of volume for deadlifts if you are training at 80%+. This is an exercise that you'd be better off doing with low volume OR doing something very fast/explosive, like taking 60-70% of your max and doing a couple super fast reps with, maybe even throwing on bands or something like that. Guys that are weaker can get away with 5x5 with 300 but once you start getting into working sets with 400+ recovery is a huge factor. Look at what a lot of older powerlifters are looking like, guys that routinely were squatting and deadlifting hundreds and hundreds of pounds. Most of these guys are beat to ****, some are even full blown crippled. Jim Wendler, the guy that came up with the 531 routine, is beyond ****ed up with his body. That douchebag Layne Norton is another great example lol. This is a combination of using high amounts of weight and a huge ego, something I've found is highly correlated in the lifting world lol. The thing is, I'm getting older and I still want to be very fit, athletic and active as I get into my 40s, 50s and up. I'm not even going to get into Ronnie Coleman lol, that's just a combination of using a huge amounts of gear that allowed him to gain an amount of muscle mass and strength that his body and connective tissue was just never designed to even remotely be able to handle. Combine that with a huge ego, training too hard and with bad form and the end result is a destroyed body.

Again, it depends on what the goals of the training session/routine are. Most guys at the gym aren't "thick" because they don't have much muscle to begin with and really only developed in their chest and arms. You can easily get thick in your back and shoulders by doing rows of various types, chin ups/pullups, rear delt/rotator cuff work, etc. If you are trying to train the erector muscles along the spine, you can hit these with good mornings, back extensions or even stuff like farmers walks, carries of various types, etc. I really like farmers walks with the handles, currently don't have access to them, and used to like loading up around 150-160 per hand and just running with them lol.

When I'm talking about volume though I'm talking about developing the muscles fully. If I'm trying to get a ton of glute development I'd be better off using a lot of volume on things like hip thrusts or using a forward sled drag with the sled behind me. Muscles develop by giving them a lot of total volume, though not junk volume obviously.
 
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sangheilios

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Great discussion. Both of you may be winning your own argument as it seems both of you are trying to make different points. Of course I'm pro deadlift as I've been training it for 40 years and have trained performance based athletes with deadlifts for over 20 years. If you have a moment give this article a read. I have met Flaherty at a conference and spoken to him on the phone. He doesn't implement anything that he can't measure the results of. I think there is enough in this article to both prove and disprove your arguments Sangheilios. Like why they use the hex bar supports your risk argument. But that its only for powerlifters and strongmen isn't supported by the results Ryan has produced. That is unless you say hex bar and straight have zero correlation.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Joe Defranco, he's based in NJ and over the years built up a huge following by training football players prepping for the NFL combine. They didn't do much in the way of deadlifts but he was a big fan of box squats but also really into using the sled to train the athletes he was working with. Same idea, get stronger and it helps with speed and explosiveness.
 

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That's a lot of volume for deadlifts if you are training at 80%+. This is an exercise that you'd be better off doing with low volume OR doing something very fast/explosive, like taking 60-70% of your max and doing a couple super fast reps with, maybe even throwing on bands or something like that. Guys that are weaker can get away with 5x5 with 300 but once you start getting into working sets with 400+ recovery is a huge factor. Look at what a lot of older powerlifters are looking like, guys that routinely were squatting and deadlifting hundreds and hundreds of pounds. Most of these guys are beat to ****, some are even full blown crippled. Jim Wendler, the guy that came up with the 531 routine, is beyond ****ed up with his body. That douchebag Layne Norton is another great example lol. This is a combination of using high amounts of weight and a huge ego, something I've found is highly correlated in the lifting world lol. The thing is, I'm getting older and I still want to be very fit, athletic and active as I get into my 40s, 50s and up. I'm not even going to get into Ronnie Coleman lol, that's just a combination of using a huge amounts of gear that allowed him to gain an amount of muscle mass and strength that his body and connective tissue was just never designed to even remotely be able to handle. Combine that with a huge ego, training too hard and with bad form and the end result is a destroyed body.

Again, it depends on what the goals of the training session/routine are. Most guys at the gym aren't "thick" because they don't have much muscle to begin with and really only developed in their chest and arms. You can easily get thick in your back and shoulders by doing rows of various types, chin ups/pullups, rear delt/rotator cuff work, etc. If you are trying to train the erector muscles along the spine, you can hit these with good mornings, back extensions or even stuff like farmers walks, carries of various types, etc. I really like farmers walks with the handles, currently don't have access to them, and used to like loading up around 150-160 per hand and just running with them lol.

When I'm talking about volume though I'm talking about developing the muscles fully. If I'm trying to get a ton of glute development I'd be better off using a lot of volume on things like hip thrusts or using a forward sled drag with the sled behind me. Muscles develop by giving them a lot of total volume, though not junk volume obviously.
The reason why compound movements are so effective is because they replicate things the body naturally does. Squatting down is a natural movement. Picking something off the ground is a natural movement. Pushing something is a natural movement. Isolated movements are not really natural for the body, which is why they tend to lead to some sort of muscle imbalance eventually, because when you move it isn't in isolation.

It definitely is hard on your joints, especially if you get into the heavier weights, I can attest to that. Haven't touched a free weight in a few years now, use heavy resistance bands and sand bags to train and make use of my weighted vest and hill climbs.

However, I still maintain that until you reach a certain level, deadlifts should absolutely be a part of your training. Once that thickness is built, it tends to stay around for a long time even if you stop training for a while.

There is a reason deadlift is called king of all exercises, and it's a very valid one regardless of what you may think.
 
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sangheilios

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The reason why compound movements are so effective is because they replicate things the body naturally does. Squatting down is a natural movement. Picking something off the ground is a natural movement. Pushing something is a natural movement. Isolated movements are not really natural for the body, which is why they tend to lead to some sort of muscle imbalance eventually, because when you move it isn't in isolation.

There is a reason deadlift is called king of all exercises, and it's a very valid one regardless of what you may think.
You are missing the point of what I'm getting at here. There are no necessary exercises. Some people struggle with squatting with weights, some guy with long legs is going to. Deadlifts many people struggle with for a variety of reasons, which creates a very high risk of injury. Look at anyone in the gym, when they do reps you'll notice that the hips start shooting up and the back takes over the movement. This isn't due to bad form, it's due to certain muscles getting fatigued and then the body compensates. This is how injuries happen and thus why they can be problematic to do regularly. Humans aren't perfect and are going to make mistakes, most people aren't even aware that this stuff is happening and next thing you know they injure themselves.
 

sangheilios

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The reason why compound movements are so effective is because they replicate things the body naturally does. Squatting down is a natural movement. Picking something off the ground is a natural movement. Pushing something is a natural movement. Isolated movements are not really natural for the body, which is why they tend to lead to some sort of muscle imbalance eventually, because when you move it isn't in isolation.

It definitely is hard on your joints, especially if you get into the heavier weights, I can attest to that. Haven't touched a free weight in a few years now, use heavy resistance bands and sand bags to train and make use of my weighted vest and hill climbs.

However, I still maintain that until you reach a certain level, deadlifts should absolutely be a part of your training. Once that thickness is built, it tends to stay around for a long time even if you stop training for a while.

There is a reason deadlift is called king of all exercises, and it's a very valid one regardless of what you may think.
I saw that you edited this post and you are understanding what I'm getting at here with it being hard on the body. Some relatively weak/unathletic guy is not going to be using weights that are hard to recover from or likely to cause injury unless he is doing something incredibly stupid. I'm talking about men who are decently strong and fit who are able to use close to 400 pounds for work sets or in excess of this, possibly well over this range. I was quite well into 400 pounds for working sets and I felt it beat me up a lot doing it on any sort of regular basis. As I mentioned to the other poster, I was able to get into and stay in this range without even doing this exercise all that much.
 
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